NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 8

[McSpy]

So many good posts to respond to -

Good point about how long the rag had been in the tail pipe... too late now to analyze, maybe not.... would have to check how much exhaust soot had build up on it... In fact if the rag were really clean would show it placed in pipe after car had be turned off...
The rag - was it simply placed my MM as a warning after car crashed? Was it visible if that's the case?
Using the rag to disable the car after it had stopped at the gas station by some seedy character... problems with that. Perp would have to have found it in the kit Fred had packed for her... Also, why do that, not knowing how far or where her car would stop. Simply following her car to remote spot and bumping into it or cutting off seems more likely. No signs of that.

In Renner's blog, he said that the rag was stuffed way up into the tailpipe, so I changed my mind about the rag as a flag. Renner got the info from the guy who had Maura's car in his lot. I'm almost convinced that the rag was there for a while. There was just enough air coming through that her car didn't stall. She could have had an exhaust leak in the pipe or there were some spaces around the rag that allowed some air to come through, but her car's performance was probably noticably lousy. Maybe someone at Amherst did it as a joke or wanted to cause her trouble. I had my car keyed a couple of times in a college area. Someone was either upset with me or they were just being jerks. I have a feeling they were upset with me and it was someone I knew.

I wonder if LE actually showed Fred the rag or did Fred assume it was from
his emergency kit. I think this detail is important. I'm almost convinced that the rag in the tailpipe was the reason her car's performance was bad in the first place.

 

[McSpy]

Snipped:



Your mind plays tricks on you when you run away - at least that's my experience. (Sorry to personalize here.)
As a young man I took off with another on a cross-country get away from family.
Funny, after a time you start to miss everyone - you just can't get them out of your mind... Maybe it was just me, but cannot see Maura being on the run for years... too much family left behind...

I agree! You also think about things like "what if something happened to them and they died" and living with regrets.

 

[McSpy]

In a case I found just last week, Steve Reed was listed as missing and his car was found. His remains were found months after an intial search only 100 feet away from there his truck had been discovered. With the dense wooded area, I wouldn't be surprised to find that Maura's remains may be right where she was last known to be, but she just hasn't been found yet. Hoping I am wrong!

I think this is possible. I recall a missing man who was discovered in brush 3 years after he was reported missing. He was hit by a car while running.

 

[McSpy]

and another thought

Her Father was so bloody hard on her over the first accident...he feels responsible...thus intense denial.

I would like to have the sister testify with a grand jury under oath.

I think Maura was suicidal...and the big emotional phone call is something they don't want to discuss because they don't want responsibility for Maura's disappearance. And the sister will not implicate her father or herself for being part of the cause.

maybe Maura was pregnant or about to lose something very important to her and the trifecta of incidents were just too much for her.

BBM

Why would the the sister not talk or tell the truth about the call? Doesn't she want to find Maura? Are you thinking Maura told her sister that she was pregnant? Maura has been missing for 7 years, why would anyone withold that info if it was true? There is that possibility Maura wanted to talk to her sister, but her sister hogged the conversation with her own problems, but maybe the call was what the sister told LE. It was about a fight with her boyfriend. I do wonder who called who. In other words, did Maura call her sister or vice versa?

 

[McSpy]

and another thought

Her Father was so bloody hard on her over the first accident...he feels responsible...thus intense denial.

I would like to have the sister testify with a grand jury under oath.

I think Maura was suicidal...and the big emotional phone call is something they don't want to discuss because they don't want responsibility for Maura's disappearance. And the sister will not implicate her father or herself for being part of the cause.

maybe Maura was pregnant or about to lose something very important to her and the trifecta of incidents were just too much for her.

BBM
I believe this. I think he was probably very upset with Maura and with the fact his car was toast, which was an added hassle to his busy life. I think he eventually calmed down, because he was insured, but the initial wake up in the early morning shock made him react strongly. I know, I would have been upset too.

This is purely speculation on my part.

 

[minazoe]

no McSpy, no one knows what this upsetting call was about , or why she abruptly left school...but I find that her sisters unwillingness to reveal anything about it as suspicious.

Sometimes people would rather think of someone as missing, rather then face facts and possibly be a part of the reason someone is possibly dead in the first place.

 

[McSpy]

I didn't think of that one. Would it work? Would it build up fumes in the car if you sat there for an extended period with all the windows rolled up? I've heard stories of tailpipes being blocked by snowdrifts, following an accident, where people have died from carbon monoxide while they sat in their cars with the motor running afterwards waiting for help. So it could be possible. I don't know a lot about auto exhaust systems. Following your line of thought, though, could she have been pushed beyond her limit with this accident on top of whatever else her problems were, and tried to make a suicide attempt there by the side of the road but had to abandon that plan when the bus driver came along?
I seem to recall seeing in Mr. Renner's blog that the rag was stuffed "way up in there" so it probably was not visible to other motorists if that's the case. If I were going to use a rag to prevent other motorists from hitting me in the dark, I would close one end of it into the trunk
lid where it would be most visible from behind. That way it could hang down the back of the car at the level
where another motorist's headlights would hit it. Putting it down low in the tailpipe would make it harder to see, plus the risk of the wind blowing it away if it was hanging out the end.
I just am not buying her dad's story of why the rag was in the tailpipe, unless for some reason he really believed a thing like that would help it run. Like maybe he didn't know a lot about cars and had heard that somewhere.
And if someone previous to that night stuffed the rag from her own trunk into the tailpipe, why did they do it and how did they have access to her trunk? Arewe 100% certain this was ever her rag to begin with or something her dad said for some reason?
Just throwing random ideas out here. I actually have no concrete opinions on this case but wish I did. At first I really believed she ran on up the road, not realizing she was becoming hypothermic, crawling into a makeshift shelter and dying. But now I have my doubts.

BBM
I don't think it works. The rag would either stall the car or shoot out from the pressure. If there are leaks in the exhaust pipe then the car would just idle lousy. The exhaust needs to go into the passenger compartment to kill someone. A hole in the floor would do it. To commit suicide without a hole in the floor, you would need a hose connected to the tailpipe that goes into the passenger's compartment. An enclosed space like a garage would help too.

 

[McSpy]

no McSpy, no one knows what this upsetting call was about , or why she abruptly left school...but I find that her sisters unwillingness to reveal anything about it as suspicious.

Sometimes people would rather think of someone as missing, rather then face facts and possibly be a part of the reason someone is possibly dead in the first place.

It is just speculation that the call made Maura upset. It may have nothing to do with her reason to go up to NH.

 

[minazoe]

so then why not disclose the conversation and what it was about?

Maura may have not known that stuffing a rag in the tail pipe would not kill her.

why was she there in the first place?

If her own family won't talk or tell the truth it bespeaks denial to me.

they are the cause but want to continue to believe they are not the cause by denying and withholding actual facts...they want to maintain a fragile reality where it all has nothing to do with anything they could have done.

they don't want their reputations ruined, image destroyed.

denial.

the girl hated them and killed herself...I am sure she was having some big problems she was not getting any help with from a family that only cares what others think.

what would be so secret that her own sister refuses to disclose it?

no no...I think I'm right here.

 

[scoops]

no McSpy, no one knows what this upsetting call was about , or why she abruptly left school...but I find that her sisters unwillingness to reveal anything about it as suspicious.

Sometimes people would rather think of someone as missing, rather then face facts and possibly be a part of the reason someone is possibly dead in the first place.

Not to muddle the waters here, but we aren't even sure which sister made Maura upset that Thursday night. The one sister (Kathleen) says their phone conversation (that lasted 20 minutes) was pretty typical and routine. The other sister (Julie) is the one who would be tied in to Maura's boyfriend in some fashion. (Both went to Westpoint together, possibly a link to Maura meeting her boyfriend in the first place).

It is just speculation that Maura was upset over a phone call that thursday night. She wasn't on a phone at the time her supervisor checked in on her. But when the supervisor asked her what was wrong, Maura is alleged to have said "My Sister" as a response (Whether Maura really meant something was wrong with a sister or she was just trying to blow off the supervisor and didn't really feel like explaining what the true nature of her being upset was all about).

 

[McSpy]

no McSpy, no one knows what this upsetting call was about , or why she abruptly left school...but I find that her sisters unwillingness to reveal anything about it as suspicious.

Sometimes people would rather think of someone as missing, rather then face facts and possibly be a part of the reason someone is possibly dead in the first place.

Maura left school supposedly for only a week. She had emailed her professors that there was a death in the family and that she would be gone for a week---not forever. Also, I believe her sister had said what the conversation was about, so why do you think her actions are suspicious? Nothing looks suspicious to me about Maura's sisters.

 

[McSpy]

so then why not disclose the conversation and what it was about?

Maura may have not known that stuffing a rag in the tail pipe would not kill her.

why was she there in the first place?

If her own family won't talk or tell the truth it bespeaks denial to me.

they are the cause but want to continue to believe they are not the cause by denying and withholding actual facts...they want to maintain a fragile reality where it all has nothing to do with anything they could have done.

they don't want their reputations ruined, image destroyed.

denial.

the girl hated them and killed herself...I am sure she was having some big problems she was not getting any help with from a family that only cares what others think.

what would be so secret that her own sister refuses to disclose it?

no no...I think I'm right here.

Minazoe, the sister did say what the subject was in their phone conversation.

 

[minazoe]

it is my understanding that the upsetting call was never revealed. I think that Maura said there was a death in the family is very telling.

 

[McSpy]

it is my understanding that the upsetting call was never revealed. I think that Maura said there was a death in the family is very telling.

BBM

It is not very telling to me. She wanted to get out of the strict nursing program for a week and had to figure out a good excuse without getting any penalties (kicked out of the program) to tell them that she would be absent. What other excuse could she have used? Sickness or death in the family works. They wouldn't question that.

Just my opinion.

 

[rosierider]

To those who believe Maura was contemplating suicide, how do you think she was going to do it? Tylenol PM and booze? Can a person really OD on Tylenol PM?

 

[scoops]

To those who believe Maura was contemplating suicide, how do you think she was going to do it? Tylenol PM and booze? Can a person really OD on Tylenol PM?

I would say drink herself to death on a trail would be my best bet. She wasn't your typical young 20's female. She loved the mountains and loved to conquer them. She is very comfortable around mountains and if one were to decide to check out and they had the option of doing so in a dorm room somewhere or in a favorite (almost sacred kind of location -to her-) then I think they would choose the latter.

But again, just my theory. No hard evidence to prove that. But then again no search has ever been done (that i know of for Maura) to some of the mountains and hiking areas in the White Mountains that Maura had just visited months before she went missing. Seems to me that would be just as logical of a place to do a body search as the location her car wrecked at on Rt. 112.

 

[minazoe]

I would say drink herself to death on a trail would be my best bet. She wasn't your typical young 20's female. She loved the mountains and loved to conquer them. She is very comfortable around mountains and if one were to decide to check out and they had the option of doing so in a dorm room somewhere or in a favorite (almost sacred kind of location -to her-) then I think they would choose the latter.

But again, just my theory. No hard evidence to prove that. But then again no search has ever been done (that i know of for Maura) to some of the mountains and hiking areas in the White Mountains that Maura had just visited months before she went missing. Seems to me that would be just as logical of a place to do a body search as the location her car wrecked at on Rt. 112.

she couldn't be very far...they should be out there with the dogs searching.

 

[dogperson]

So probably stuffing the rag in the tailpipe would have stalled the car instead of sending carbon monoxide into the vehicle, unless there was a hole or some other sort of entry point into the vehicle. (Thanks for helping me with that; I'm not a mechanically inclined person so my car either runs or it doesn't.) I wonder if Maura thought it would work but it didn't. If she's like me and doesn't understand exactly how the exhaust system works, could she have thought she could kill herself this way?
I bounce around from one theory to another one on this because all the details don't come together in a way that makes sense. It's like something is there that doesn't fit, or else there's something we don't know about that would make the whole scene come together clearly. I still think there is something the family wants to keep private about the days leading up to Maura's disappearance. Cause I was thinking that if a family member of mine went missing I'd be telling everyone who knew them to cooperate fully with LE, down to the very last detail of everything they could remember about those days, because you never know what might be the key to the whole thing. If her dad really doesn't know how or why she disappeared, how can he be certain that the other events have nothing to do with it? Unless he really believes she was randomly abducted and that her personal problems didn't contribute to a thing like that. I mean, if she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, all the events leading up to the disappearance really would have nothing to do with it, other than the fact that she would not have been on that stretch of road to begin with.

 

[McSpy]

So probably stuffing the rag in the tailpipe would have stalled the car instead of sending carbon monoxide into the vehicle, unless there was a hole or some other sort of entry point into the vehicle. (Thanks for helping me with that; I'm not a mechanically inclined person so my car either runs or it doesn't.) I wonder if Maura thought it would work but it didn't. If she's like me and doesn't understand exactly how the exhaust system works, could she have thought she could kill herself this way?
I bounce around from one theory to another one on this because all the details don't come together in a way that makes sense. It's like something is there that doesn't fit, or else there's something we don't know about that would make the whole scene come together clearly. I still think there is something the family wants to keep private about the days leading up to Maura's disappearance. Cause I was thinking that if a family member of mine went missing I'd be telling everyone who knew them to cooperate fully with LE, down to the very last detail of everything they could remember about those days, because you never know what might be the key to the whole thing. If her dad really doesn't know how or why she disappeared, how can he be certain that the other events have nothing to do with it? Unless he really believes she was randomly abducted and that her personal problems didn't contribute to a thing like that. I mean, if she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, all the events leading up to the disappearance really would have nothing to do with it, other than the fact that she would not have been on that stretch of road to begin with.

Sometimes dads are clueless, but I think he believes what happened to her happened after the NH accident. I think he recognizes that she was upset. I'll try to find a link on this, if it is still out there.

 

[McSpy]

I would say drink herself to death on a trail would be my best bet. She wasn't your typical young 20's female. She loved the mountains and loved to conquer them. She is very comfortable around mountains and if one were to decide to check out and they had the option of doing so in a dorm room somewhere or in a favorite (almost sacred kind of location -to her-) then I think they would choose the latter.

But again, just my theory. No hard evidence to prove that. But then again no search has ever been done (that i know of for Maura) to some of the mountains and hiking areas in the White Mountains that Maura had just visited months before she went missing. Seems to me that would be just as logical of a place to do a body search as the location her car wrecked at on Rt. 112.

I don't think she commited suicide, but like you, I don't know for sure. After 7 years of hikers on the trails in NH, I doubt she is on a trail somewhere. She has to be off trail, even if it is only a few yards. I do think it is a good idea to check it out though. However, it would be a daunting task.