JR's profile

[Nuisanceposter]

And there is the big "Boogaboo." Why does a child rapist/murderer need to hide the fact that a child was raped? Why leave her behind in that grotesque garrote with her hands tied above her head and tape on her mouth, yet hide the rape/molestation? Why redress her? Why would this intruder care? an intruder as sick as this one was made to appear wouldnt have cared.

Theres one answer to all those questions>>>> There wasnt an intruder!

This is a point that I get totally lost on as well. Well...one of the many points that do not make sense at all (unless you start thinking RDI.)

If the person who broke in and murdered JonBenet was doing it as an act of revenge against JR, then why was so much care taken to not only wipe down and redress the body, but also to hide it?

Why hide the body in the house? Why leave the victim behind, and then leave unnecessary evidence in the form of a handwritten RN? Why not take the body with and at least try to collect a ransom? Why not take the body and dump it in a ditch or in a dump, or somewhere where it'd be a while before the body was found? Why not make JR have to search for the kidnapped child? Make him have to work with LE/investigators to find the body?

Why hide the victim the intruder is using to exact vengeance on JR with in the basement - or anywhere? Why not leave her where she would be immediately visible, for maximum shock and horror? Wouldn't it be so much more devastating for JR (or the rest of the Rs) to find this helpless and defenseless child propped up in direct sight, where the horror of discovery cannot be missed?

What intruder that sexually assaults and strangles/bludgeons a small girl is going to care whether the victim he's just violated and killed is dressed or not? What intruder would waste precious time risking being caught by stopping to wipe down and redress the child he's just brutally attacked and murdered - in her own home, with her parents asleep upstairs?

Wouldn't someone who hates JR enough to risk breaking in to assault and murder his youngest child want JR and the Rs to suffer all the harder for not even knowing where the victim was, denying them the closure of a proper funeral and burial, denying the victim the respect of a proper funeral and burial?


And then we have how the Rs behaved with the 911 call (and after.) Patsy claims she never read the RN all the way through (yeah, right), but JR says he did...yet he doesn't bother to tell Patsy about the threats of monitoring the R house, ready to cut JonBenet's head off. (And how did Patsy know how the RN was signed, if she never read it all?)

He doesn't try to get the phone and warn 911 himself, and he doesn't tell Patsy about it or tell her to tell 911.

He doesn't seem concerned that Patsy's saying useless things like "she's blonde" rather than actually telling 911 what they need to know, like there are threats of decapitation.

He doesn't seem worried when Patsy hangs up on 911, although hanging up on 911 in that situation seems like a bad idea...especially when 911 still doesn't know about the threats, and it seems like even more so of a bad idea when she's hanging up on 911 to free the line up so she can make half a dozen other calls to their friends.

In fact, he doesn't try to stop Patsy from dialing up this half-dozen friends and barking at them to drop everything (at 6 am) to rush over to the R house, and he doesn't try to warn them to not pull up right outside of the house where the monitoring kidnappers can see that the Rs have deviated from orders.

Like both John and Patsy already knew the RN was completely bogus and that there were no real threats to the safety of the Rs.

 

[UKGuy]

It was all over kill. As if two people had two very different ideas of what a crime scene should or would look like and both went about setting those scenes up. The right hand did not tell the left what it was doing. Or thats how I see it and apparently you as well Maddie my Dear.

What we have here is a failure to communicate.... Its even possible as UK has said, that more than one staging took place. Maybe there is what they staged together and then what each added after the fact. The two hours JR was AWOL might have been his time of embellishment and with a house full of LE and friends, he couldnt very well share what he had done with Patsy, leaving her in the dark... JMHO

Agatha_C,
On this case, after a period, things start to become clearer, and other things become so obvious, you sometimes think, why did I not think about that before.

I reckon there was more than one staging. This theory explains the evidence, a simple RDI does not. Which is why you seem no further forward after reading Steve Thomas' book, he just rehashes and clarifies much of what we already know, and puts PDI up front.

As you suggest why bother with a ligature and paintbrush, when the intention is a staged abduction. Anyone abducting someone for ransom is hardly going to inflict some bizarre injury on the abductee?

My explantion for this is that there was a prior staging which involved the ligature and paintbrush, which was located upstairs. When this was revised the garotte could not be undone , so was left in place, it did not matter too much since, hopefully JonBenet was intended not to be discovered. Well not until the R's had flown off interstate for their important scheduled appointment.

This is why there is a mix of stuff in the wine-cellar e.g. dolls, nightgown, gifts and whatever else we have not been told about. Why is it there, because it represents forensic evidence from at least one prior crime-scene and possibly one more. All this evidence was probably dumped in the wine-cellar since if JonBenet was found then finding the other items would no longer matter.

Due to the requirement to place these items, out of sight, into the wine-cellar suggests they were put there at the last minute. It could be that the prior staging involved assaulting JonBenet with the paintbrush, so to mask her prior sexual contact.

One of the R's realized reporting this scenario to BPD would mean they would face immediate house arrest, with the house being sealed, and them being relocated to the police station. This would mean no time to escape.
So, at the last minute, an Abduction Staging was fabricated, with R's betting the house on JonBenet along with other evidence being dumped into the wine-cellar, hoping to buy enough time to make their getaway?

It was all over kill. As if two people had two very different ideas of what a crime scene should or would look like and both went about setting those scenes up.

So I reckon you are right. A minimum of two staged crime-scenes explains why the wine-cellar crime-scene is so disorganized, particularly when it should not be, as it is only a dirty, dusty cellar!



.

 

[Agatha_C]

This is a point that I get totally lost on as well. Well...one of the many points that do not make sense at all (unless you start thinking RDI.)

If the person who broke in and murdered JonBenet was doing it as an act of revenge against JR, then why was so much care taken to not only wipe down and redress the body, but also to hide it?

Why hide the body in the house? Why leave the victim behind, and then leave unnecessary evidence in the form of a handwritten RN? Why not take the body with and at least try to collect a ransom? Why not take the body and dump it in a ditch or in a dump, or somewhere where it'd be a while before the body was found? Why not make JR have to search for the kidnapped child? Make him have to work with LE/investigators to find the body?

Why hide the victim the intruder is using to exact vengeance on JR with in the basement - or anywhere? Why not leave her where she would be immediately visible, for maximum shock and horror? Wouldn't it be so much more devastating for JR (or the rest of the Rs) to find this helpless and defenseless child propped up in direct sight, where the horror of discovery cannot be missed?

What intruder that sexually assaults and strangles/bludgeons a small girl is going to care whether the victim he's just violated and killed is dressed or not? What intruder would waste precious time risking being caught by stopping to wipe down and redress the child he's just brutally attacked and murdered - in her own home, with her parents asleep upstairs?

Wouldn't someone who hates JR enough to risk breaking in to assault and murder his youngest child want JR and the Rs to suffer all the harder for not even knowing where the victim was, denying them the closure of a proper funeral and burial, denying the victim the respect of a proper funeral and burial?


And then we have how the Rs behaved with the 911 call (and after.) Patsy claims she never read the RN all the way through (yeah, right), but JR says he did...yet he doesn't bother to tell Patsy about the threats of monitoring the R house, ready to cut JonBenet's head off. (And how did Patsy know how the RN was signed, if she never read it all?)

He doesn't try to get the phone and warn 911 himself, and he doesn't tell Patsy about it or tell her to tell 911.

He doesn't seem concerned that Patsy's saying useless things like "she's blonde" rather than actually telling 911 what they need to know, like there are threats of decapitation.

He doesn't seem worried when Patsy hangs up on 911, although hanging up on 911 in that situation seems like a bad idea...especially when 911 still doesn't know about the threats, and it seems like even more so of a bad idea when she's hanging up on 911 to free the line up so she can make half a dozen other calls to their friends.

In fact, he doesn't try to stop Patsy from dialing up this half-dozen friends and barking at them to drop everything (at 6 am) to rush over to the R house, and he doesn't try to warn them to not pull up right outside of the house where the monitoring kidnappers can see that the Rs have deviated from orders.

Like both John and Patsy already knew the RN was completely bogus and that there were no real threats to the safety of the Rs.

Not to mention how JR was able to handle and carry his childs stiff cold body up the stairs as if he was already used to handling her in such a manner. He also never talks about the horror of the scene, as if he wasnt shocked to see her hands bound (if you want to call it that) above her head or the garrote that was strangling her. He calmly talks about trying to untie them, but never mentions the horror of finding her that way. Hmmmmmmmmm! As if he had already dealt with the horror of it and had distanced himself....

 

[Agatha_C]

Agatha_C,
On this case, after a period, things start to become clearer, and other things become so obvious, you sometimes think, why did I not think about that before.

I reckon there was more than one staging. This theory explains the evidence, a simple RDI does not. Which is why you seem no further forward after reading Steve Thomas' book, he just rehashes and clarifies much of what we already know, and puts PDI up front.

As you suggest why bother with a ligature and paintbrush, when the intention is a staged abduction. Anyone abducting someone for ransom is hardly going to inflict some bizarre injury on the abductee?

My explantion for this is that there was a prior staging which involved the ligature and paintbrush, which was located upstairs. When this was revised the garotte could not be undone , so was left in place, it did not matter too much since, hopefully JonBenet was intended not to be discovered. Well not until the R's had flown off interstate for their important scheduled appointment.

This is why there is a mix of stuff in the wine-cellar e.g. dolls, nightgown, gifts and whatever else we have not been told about. Why is it there, because it represents forensic evidence from at least one prior crime-scene and possibly one more. All this evidence was probably dumped in the wine-cellar since if JonBenet was found then finding the other items would no longer matter.

Due to the requirement to place these items, out of sight, into the wine-cellar suggests they were put there at the last minute. It could be that the prior staging involved assaulting JonBenet with the paintbrush, so to mask her prior sexual contact.

One of the R's realized reporting this scenario to BPD would mean they would face immediate house arrest, with the house being sealed, and them being relocated to the police station. This would mean no time to escape.
So, at the last minute, an Abduction Staging was fabricated, with R's betting the house on JonBenet along with other evidence being dumped into the wine-cellar, hoping to buy enough time to make their getaway?



So I reckon you are right. A minimum of two staged crime-scenes explains why the wine-cellar crime-scene is so disorganized, particularly when it should not be, as it is only a dirty, dusty cellar!



.

UK,
I agree whole-heartedly with this theory of multiple stagings. I feel that it did start in the bedroom that night and it would only make sense for the first staging to have taken place there. Ive asked some question on another thread that deal with this very topic http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147357&page=2

One could even say that the missing pages of the notebook were not the practice note but an entirely different note all together. One written for the first staging.

 

[UKGuy]

UK,
I agree whole-heartedly with this theory of multiple stagings. I feel that it did start in the bedroom that night and it would only make sense for the first staging to have taken place there. Ive asked some question on another thread that deal with this very topic http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147357&page=2

One could even say that the missing pages of the notebook were not the practice note but an entirely different note all together. One written for the first staging.

Agatha_C,
Yes, excellent points, I think we have RDI in our sights now?


.

 

[smurf86]

im currenntly reading STs book and this may look like a really dumb question but were the DAs office brow nosing team ramsey to that extent?? it beggars belief.

 

[UKGuy]

im currenntly reading STs book and this may look like a really dumb question but were the DAs office brow nosing team ramsey to that extent?? it beggars belief.

smurf86,
Absolutely not a dumb question. The color brown cannot describe the stench aromatically.


.

 

[smurf86]

thats disgusting, Alex Hunter should have been dismissed on the spot i am sure thats conflict of interest. Thanks UKGuy

 

[BBB167893]

It was all over kill. As if two people had two very different ideas of what a crime scene should or would look like and both went about setting those scenes up. The right hand did not tell the left what it was doing. Or thats how I see it and apparently you as well Maddie my Dear.

Make that three of us!

Nice to see some good sense for a change.:twocents:

 

[BBB167893]

thats disgusting, Alex Hunter should have been dismissed on the spot i am sure thats conflict of interest. Thanks UKGuy

I'm sure it is, too, smurf. But you try and tell our "friends" that.

And yes, he should have been dismissed. His whole staff should have been removed.

 

[smurf86]

I'm sure it is, too, smurf. But you try and tell our "friends" that.

And yes, he should have been dismissed. His whole staff should have been removed.

Exactly SD, i didnt do that much law at college and now its only the criminal side of it, but i did enough to know that Hunter compromised the whole case and why people higher up than him so blatantly ignored that for the sake of the image of Boulder which is the only reason that i can see is pathetic they betrayed Jonbenet and her memory!!

 

[BBB167893]

Exactly SD, i didnt do that much law at college and now its only the criminal side of it, but i did enough to know that Hunter compromised the whole case and why people higher up than him so blatantly ignored that for the sake of the image of Boulder which is the only reason that i can see is pathetic they betrayed Jonbenet and her memory!!

It's disgusting, isn't it, smurf? What's more disgusting is that there are people STILL doing it! "Betrayed JonBenet and her memory." Really no other way to say it, is there, smurf? I'd take it a step further, though. They've betrayed all the victims SINCE. Caylee Anthony was just one of them. How many MORE do they need?

And keep in mind: ST only describes what he saw during his time with the investigation while Alex Hunter was there. Mary Lacy was even WORSE. I think ST said it best in 2006 when he said, and I quote, "she makes her predecessor look like Rudy Giuliani."

I'm don't think anyone could have said it better!

You stick with me a while, smurf. I'll give you numerous examples of why the DA's office in this case can't be trusted.

Some of our "friends" talk like Mary Lacy was some kind of modern day Galileo. But if there's anyone of Renaissance Italy that they SHOULD be likened to, it's the Borgia family!

 

[melissasmom]

This is my first time posting in the JBR threads, and I have a question I'm sure one of you guys can answer. You all seem to know EVERYTHING about this case, it is truly amazing. However I know this is not the correct thread. Is there some sort of q & a thread? TIA

 

[DeeDee249]

This is my first time posting in the JBR threads, and I have a question I'm sure one of you guys can answer. You all seem to know EVERYTHING about this case, it is truly amazing. However I know this is not the correct thread. Is there some sort of q & a thread? TIA

Welcome to the forum! I don't know about a Q & A thread, but a lot of newbies are greatly helped by reading here: http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetindex.htm

It has everything- the autopsy report, crime scene photos of the house, interviews with the parents, etc.

 

[Squishified]

This is my first time posting in the JBR threads, and I have a question I'm sure one of you guys can answer. You all seem to know EVERYTHING about this case, it is truly amazing. However I know this is not the correct thread. Is there some sort of q & a thread? TIA

Welcome to the JBR forum! We tend to go off topic of what the thread title is all the time. You could probably ask in any of the current threads.

 

[smurf86]

It's disgusting, isn't it, smurf? What's more disgusting is that there are people STILL doing it! "Betrayed JonBenet and her memory." Really no other way to say it, is there, smurf? I'd take it a step further, though. They've betrayed all the victims SINCE. Caylee Anthony was just one of them. How many MORE do they need?

And keep in mind: ST only describes what he saw during his time with the investigation while Alex Hunter was there. Mary Lacy was even WORSE. I think ST said it best in 2006 when he said, and I quote, "she makes her predecessor look like Rudy Giuliani."

I'm don't think anyone could have said it better!

You stick with me a while, smurf. I'll give you numerous examples of why the DA's office in this case can't be trusted.

Some of our "friends" talk like Mary Lacy was some kind of modern day Galileo. But if there's anyone of Renaissance Italy that they SHOULD be likened to, it's the Borgia family!

To be honest I thought that Casey Anthony was a slam dunk I was convinvced she was going to jail, I know book are meant to invoke emotions but the more I read the more infuriated I get. I feel so sorry for ST and others who tried to steer the investigation in the right direction there must be something in the water in Boulder.:maddening:

 

[melissasmom]

Welcome to the JBR forum! We tend to go off topic of what the thread title is all the time. You could probably ask in any of the current threads.

Thanks! And thanks also DeeDee249 for the link to ACR. That site definitley has TONS of information. Truthfully it was a little overwhelming, it's going to take me forever to go thorugh it. I guess that will be yet more hours spent on my computer. lol

Well, my question does pertain to John Ramsey. I do believe that JonBenet was indeed molested over a period of time, just from what I have seen in regards to the autopsy report(though I know there are different interpretations of it), toileting issues, and Patsy taking her to the dr. so often for different issues.

I personally feel that it was JR who was the perpetrator of this. Not really sure why, I just do. I think he accidentally killed JonBenet during one of these times, and patsy helped him stage the whole kidnapping thing. Just my opinion.

But what I am wondering is, is there ANY indication that JR had molested or done anything inappropriate with any other children. Namely I guess I am thinking of his other daughters. I feel kind of like a heel asking this, but was this aspect at all investigated by anyone? Any rumors or indications? I just can't see him "becoming" a pedophile in middle age, I don't think that happens.

Because I was kind of thinking maybe HE was the one who gave JBR the pineapple that night. Like maybe it was part of a little ritual. Maybe she woke up, and he was awake and said something like "Hey honey, lets go down to the kitchen, Daddy will get you a snack" kind of as a preclude to whatever he was planning on doing. I know I read something about the spoon being odd, like a huge serving spoon or something. But maybe as he was getting the pineapple out of the fridge, JonBenet said, "oh, I'll get a spoon", and that is what she grabbed and he just let her go with it.

Please don't laugh at me if this is completely off the wall and doesnt fit in with the facts of the case. I don't know nearly as much as everyone here. I was just kind of wondering. Thanks!

 

[yllek]

I haven't posted on this thread before either, but have followed the case and lurked the JBR fourm for years. I consider many of the dedicated WSers on this case to be experts. I hope one day that the full truth is revealed about what really happened to JBR. I am not counting on it though.

This is my simple opinion of the case based on the evidence and materials available:

1. One or both of the Rs was routinely sexually abusing JBR; I think there was a primary abuser and one who may have known/watched/ocassionally participated. But, if only one, I believe it was Patsy as there is not indication that John had such a history with his other children. I think Patsy was the catalyst and I think Patsy was a disturbed woman who was more interested in image than substance; I think there was a hole there somewhere and perversion filled it. JR's profile imo: detached, arrogant, numb from previous tragedies - a perfect accomplice able to separate himself emotionally from most things.
2. The abuse grew more twisted over time in order to achieve gratification.
3. The primary abuser went too far and JBR died.
4. I think the crime actually took place in the wine cellar, it was the "secret place" so to speak.
5. I think the ransom note was a collaboration between both parents. If not for the strange ransom note that simply doesn't fit with a sexual assault or leaving an intended abductee dead in the home, I might be more open to IDI or just PDI. The note is the smoking gun pointing towards both parents' involvement imo.
6. I think the ransom note and all of the other oddities are simply the result of a psychologically unstable woman with an active imagination and a detached over-thinking man, both of whom felt above reproach and above the rest, hatching a plan to outsmart authorities. The ransom note, in their arrogant minds, positiioned them as clear victims of an extortion attempt ("OUR daughter died because someone was out to get US, WE were so violated" kind of attempt).
7. I'm not sure that anything much was staged, though much of it could have been. I think it's possible that JBR died like she was found, with the exception of cleaning her up. It's possible imo that the perps weren't thinking about hiding what happened so much as ridding the scene of evidence against them and introducing an intruder into the mix so there was someone else to blame for what happened. On the fence about this part.

Did they succeed with their deception/cover up of the crime? Yep. At least, they outsmarted the only authorities that mattered; those that held their freedom in their hands at the time. They were indeed deemed above reproach and above the rest to the only group of people with the power to pursue justice for JonBenet, imo. Sad.

JMO, MOO, IMO... I may be totally off base on all of it. I hope evidence is produced to prove this was IDI. I would much rather think that JBR wasn't betrayed and abused by her own family and instead died quickly as a result of a one-time truly inexplicable act by a non family member. It just doesn't look that way at all based on the evidence avaialble to date.

 

[DeeDee249]

Thanks! And thanks also DeeDee249 for the link to ACR. That site definitley has TONS of information. Truthfully it was a little overwhelming, it's going to take me forever to go thorugh it. I guess that will be yet more hours spent on my computer. lol

Well, my question does pertain to John Ramsey. I do believe that JonBenet was indeed molested over a period of time, just from what I have seen in regards to the autopsy report(though I know there are different interpretations of it), toileting issues, and Patsy taking her to the dr. so often for different issues.

I personally feel that it was JR who was the perpetrator of this. Not really sure why, I just do. I think he accidentally killed JonBenet during one of these times, and patsy helped him stage the whole kidnapping thing. Just my opinion.

But what I am wondering is, is there ANY indication that JR had molested or done anything inappropriate with any other children. Namely I guess I am thinking of his other daughters. I feel kind of like a heel asking this, but was this aspect at all investigated by anyone? Any rumors or indications? I just can't see him "becoming" a pedophile in middle age, I don't think that happens.

Because I was kind of thinking maybe HE was the one who gave JBR the pineapple that night. Like maybe it was part of a little ritual. Maybe she woke up, and he was awake and said something like "Hey honey, lets go down to the kitchen, Daddy will get you a snack" kind of as a preclude to whatever he was planning on doing. I know I read something about the spoon being odd, like a huge serving spoon or something. But maybe as he was getting the pineapple out of the fridge, JonBenet said, "oh, I'll get a spoon", and that is what she grabbed and he just let her go with it.

Please don't laugh at me if this is completely off the wall and doesnt fit in with the facts of the case. I don't know nearly as much as everyone here. I was just kind of wondering. Thanks!

No one laughs at anyone here-all opinions and theories have value.
There are many who share your theory of JR as the perp, many who think it was Patsy, and many who think it was one (or both) of her brothers. When we call ourselves RDI, it means we think a Ramsey did it, and we don't know which one. So they are all possible perps in my opinion.
Re the pineapple- Patsy's prints were found on the bowl from which the pineapple found in JB's digestive tract came. JR's prints were not on the bowl. I think, regardless of who killed her, that it was Patsy who gave JB (and possibly BR as well) that pineapple snack when they got home from the White's party. Kids usually don't each much at a party like that- they are too excited because it is Christmas and they are playing with their friends and their new toys. I can totally imagine Patsy agreeing to a light bedtime snack of pineapple. That is why her lies about it are so incriminating. There is NOTHING wrong with giving your kids a bedtime snack, so why lie about it? Why deny you did such an everyday, commonplace thing? UNLESS it played some part in the crime or your alibi. THAT is where the problem (for the Rs) lies. JB died sometime between 11 pm and 1 am. Her autopsy indicated the pineapple was in her small intestine. It takes about 2 hours for that pineapple to get to that point in her digestive tract. The family admits to arriving home by 10 PM. JB was in FULL rigor mortis when she was found at 1 PM the following day, and it takes approx 12 hours for a corpse to reach full rigor at indoor temperatures. This fact, taken with the location of the pineapple in the small intestine, place her time of death around midnight - 1 AM. This means all the activity leading up to her death had to take place in less than 2 hours- the pineapple snack, the sexual assault, garroting (for pleasure?) the head bash. THAT timeline allows a VERY small window for an intruder to have committed this crime, especially considering that her scream, loud enough to be heard across the street, could have also been heard IN the house by her family, who may not have even been asleep yet. Patsy admitted having lots to do before they were due to leave for their trip early the next morning.
This would have meant an intruder took JB from her bed, fed her pineapple (no other prints on the bowl but Patsy and BR), molested her, garroted her, wiped her down where she bled from her vagina, redressed her with panties that had to be located among several wrapped gifts in the basement (as if an intruder would know they were there), wrapped in her white blanket which had been in the basement dryer, which no intruder would know, and then written a 3 page ransom note with paper and sharpie pen belonging to the house and located in the kitchen- ALL this while her family may not even have been asleep and could certainly have heard her scream and come running.
No intruder. No way.
THAT is why Patsy lied about the pineapple. It wasn't the pineapple that was the problem. It was the timeline that was the problem. The Rs needed it to be established that JB fell asleep in the car, they put her to bed asleep and they never saw her alive again. Because if they fed her the pineapple, there was no way an intruder could have done all that followed after the family was asleep.

 

[BBB167893]

This is my first time posting in the JBR threads, and I have a question I'm sure one of you guys can answer. You all seem to know EVERYTHING about this case, it is truly amazing. However I know this is not the correct thread. Is there some sort of q & a thread? TIA

This is as close as it gets around here:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6491296