"One of the most remarkable legal hearings in Scientology's history" set to begin

[butwhatif?]

I don't consider Scientology to be benign, so I'm not convinced it is necessary or wise to show respect to those who follow it, promote it, or treat it as legitimate. Here's another good read on the subject:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/02/14/110214fa_fact_wright

Oh, I don't think it's benign at all! Far from it. But the people who are hurt the most are it's members and their families. I believe a softly, softly approach about the reality of what goes on within scientology is the best way to reach them. I see a a lot of them as unknowing victims who are slowly being brainwashed.
If we were talking about it's promoters or it's management I would be letting loose!
I really like Tory's (ex-scientologist) way of dealing with things. She explains it pretty well in this video abt Debbie cooks email.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC3d2hCoao0

They remind me of many other Cults yet this one appears very interested in money.
Years ago when I was in college in GA, I lived by a Chiropractic College (Life).
I think the owner of the school practiced Scientology and students used this program to
manage money and people. I knew quite a few of them. In my opinion, they appeared to be
rather cold and very self centered.

Goz

People need to be very careful of this. They run drug/alcohol rehabs and educational programs, often under different names, to try to pull in people who are at a low point in their lives.
Thanks to Tom 'I was falsely dx'ed with dyslexia, but Scientology saved me' Cruise, there are also programs run by scientolgy under a various names to help kids with LD's..again they are trying to recruit people, not help them IMO. Parents need to be very careful with signing their kids up for any educational programs and make sure there is no affiliation with scientology. As a parent of a child with an LD, this vid with TM had me absolutely fuming!!!

(someone has added weird audio to this vid)

Tom Cruise Talks About Ron Hubbard's Study Tech - YouTube

If there are Scientologists reading here, they are silent ones. Scientology threads are common and usually some of the rest of us have to play devil's advocate to keep the discussion from becoming one long string of condemnations.

I'm not in the mood to defend a Church I don't agree with today.

But I do have a question. I notice that a lot of our Australian members post when Scientology is the subject. Does the Church have a large presence in your country?

I don't think it's very big here. It has a presence, but it's certainly not common or popular....but then maybe they all live in silence about it. And the leaders of scientology lie about the real numbers to make it seem bigger than it really is- but that's global not just here.
I have only had two encounters with scientology in my 34 years.
My best friend's mum was a scientologist. (this was when we were pre-teens)
She had a terrible r/ship with her daughter, because she always put scientology first. When she was dx'ed with cancer she was certain that if she 'ran the program' instead of getting chemo, she would be healed. She died when my friend was 13.

Then when I was working in the sydney CBD I was stopped on the street in my lunch hour to do a 'personality test'. I was at a low point in my life, and did the street test, but when they invited me to come across the road to their 'office' I knew something wasn't right, and politely declined...but they kept trying to push it.

This was years ago. The only reason that I know they still have a presence is because I googled to see if there was a Sydney Anon group, wanting to be a part of their protests.

All JMO

 

[melissasmom]

I know that, for me, it's when an individuals civic freedoms are impinged upon by said belief system-- especially being held against their will. moo

I know, it's scary Has anyone here ever looked at the website called "Operation Clambake"? It is very interesting in regards to lots of things going on in Scientology.

O/T The Church of Scientology came to town here about 10 years ago. They turned a huge old building downtown into a headquarters for this area. Scientologists come here from all over because apparently there arent' many places for them to go in this area of the US. There was a huge spread in the newspaper when this happened. The SDA church is real big here, and they were not happy about it.
Also my daughter and her friend went down to the headquarters shortly after they opened just to check it out ( they were about 15 yrs old). She said they were real nice to her and they had the girls take "personality test". She told me this after the fact of course. As far as I know they never went back.

 

[Velouria]

respectfully snipped for length[/I]

You raise an excellent point, butwhatif?...Some of you may have seen commercials from this organization, the Citizens Commission on Human Rights.

http://www.cchr.org/

And this page is worth a read, also:

http://www.lermanet.com/frontgroups.html

 

[butwhatif?]

You raise an excellent point, butwhatif?...Some of you may have seen commercials from this organization, the Citizens Commission on Human Rights.

http://www.cchr.org/

And this page is worth a read, also:

http://www.lermanet.com/frontgroups.html

Thanks for posting those links. I had lost that 2nd one about the front groups.

Here's the link with snippets from ,and updates about the case:

Day 1:

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/02/scientology_dee.php

Day 2: BREAKING: SCIENTOLOGY WITHDRAWS REQUEST FOR TEMPORARY INJUNCTION -- DEBBIE COOK IS UNGAGGED

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/02/scientology_vs_2.php

12:30 pm. The Church has sent out a public statement about today's decision to withdraw their request for an injunction. I'm putting it here in its entirety...

The Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization has withdrawn its motion for preliminary injunction to preclude the court being used further as a forum for the defendants to violate the rights of the Church and its members with more false and disparaging statements. At the same time, Church counsel is pleased that Ms. Cook has admitted to the facts confirming both her agreement and the irreparable harm caused to the Church through her actions. The Church will use this evidence to seek Summary Judgment against Ms. Cook and her husband.

Much more @ link.

 

[Nova]

Then again, I would personally have a difficult time defending a "church" that forces soon-to-be former leaders to sign documents insisting on vows of silence. I'm certain I've never heard of such practices from other churches.

You don't think there are traditions of silence that attach to the Pope? Of course we don't have ex-Popes because they serve for life, but I'm reasonably certain top Vatican officials have secrets they are expected to keep. As for other religions, they all have ways of strongly compelling conformity at all levels, whether or not anyone signs a piece of paper.

The more authoritarian the theology, the harder the institution works to keep the individual under control.

(BTW, the same may be said of the military, some sports teams, and other authoritarian groups.)

Are you ever (in the moode to defend Scientology), Nova?

Sure. And I have many times, Fairy1. Not because I'm a fan or have any intention of signing up to be "audited." But I studied new religious movements in college from a leading expert and there are very few charges labeled against Scientology, the Unification Church, the Hare Krishna, etc., that haven't been labeled against Protestants and Mormons in the past. And there are few criticisms that can't also be leveled against other religious groups today.

As has been said many times, the only difference between a cult and a religion is time.

Scientology does seem particularly militant, at least until you compare its activities to those of the Catholic Church in Italy or the Baptist Church in Texas or the Mormon Church in Utah. If anything, Scientology has less of an impact because it hasn't yet really infiltrated the political elite of any state or country.

The point isn't that Scientology is harmless. It's that all religions are coercive to one degree or another and yet people have a right to believe and belong. (ETA: a poster above mentioned Scientology's "constant demands for money or cheap labor." As far as I know, that can be said of every church and temple on the planet. Most other non-profits as well.)

 

[animlzrule]

I know that, for me, it's when an individuals civic freedoms are impinged upon by said belief system-- especially being held against their will. moo

Wow. Your standard by which you determine whether an organization qualifies as a cult is so much more eloquent, measurable and intellectual than mine...."I know one when I see one!!"

 

[Nova]

Wow. Your standard by which you determine whether an organization qualifies as a cult is so much more eloquent, measurable and intellectual than mine...."I know one when I see one!!"

Quiche's definition re impinging on member's civil freedoms is eloquent, and not a bad standard for any of us to employ for ourselves.

But one thing that almost always happens when new religious movements are discussed is that people immediately begin comparing members who have chosen to give up everything and work for the church with far more casual members of established religions. A fairer comparison would be to compare Scientology workers with nuns in a convent. Members of both groups give up their worldly belongings, submit themselves to the absolute authority of a superior, spend nearly all their waking hours in service, etc. and so forth.

On the other hand, there are plenty of people who took a personality test, maybe were audited a few times and attended some social functions at Scientology centers. They aren't that different from Christians who go to church on Christmas and Easter. But they also aren't the people we hear about when somebody wants to bash a new religious movement.

I chose to do my field research on the Unification Church rather than Scientology and spent some time at the "Moonie" center in Manhattan. I saw nothing that was any more coercive than what I would expect from the Disciples of Christ church in which I was raised. That's not to say that other people don't get so involved they find it difficult to leave; but on that subject, take a poll of Catholics or Methodists.

 

[wfgodot]

After some long and hard thought about this, I'll consider it a cult if it was founded by a former science fiction writer.

 

[Cypros]

Technically, a cult is a religion with a relatively small number of followers that is considered to be unorthodox or illegitimate. All of the major religions that exist today had their beginnings as cults.

 

[Trino]

Have any religions been deemed as cults and lost their status as tax free religions? Even Jim Jones and his "church," while in CA, were considered legit.

Is it time for charitable status to be reviewed by Congress? Note that many heads of churches have become very wealthy. Can you imagine the uproar if they decided to do so?

 

[Montjoy]

After some long and hard thought about this, I'll consider it a cult if it was founded by a former science fiction writer.

...and a terrible one at that! Have you ever watched any of the super-expensive abomination "Battlefield Earth"?

 

[Nova]

Have any religions been deemed as cults and lost their status as tax free religions? Even Jim Jones and his "church," while in CA, were considered legit.

Is it time for charitable status to be reviewed by Congress? Note that many heads of churches have become very wealthy. Can you imagine the uproar if they decided to do so?

Ain't gonna happen. Mormon and Catholic clergy (to name just two examples) regularly violate the ban on political advocacy. Nobody is going to open that can of worms by reviewing tax-free status. (Or if somebody tried, there would be such an uproar the proposed review would never pass Congress.)

As far as I know, the tax code makes no distinction between a "cult" and a "religion." I don't see how it could, since the words only have relative meanings. As Cypros suggests, a "cult" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[wfgodot]

This sort of thing also sounds sorta "culty." Just saying. (Link is to a Guardian article.)

 

[wfgodot]

...and a terrible one at that! Have you ever watched any of the super-expensive abomination "Battlefield Earth"?

I haven't had the good fortune, lol. I've seen clips. Wonderful in their wretchedness.

 

[Nova]

This sort of thing also sounds sorta "culty." Just saying. (Link is to a Guardian article.)

It really does. Here I am trying to stay all open- and fair-minded and then they go and pull that sort of stunt! Unbelievable!

I supposed in theory that baptizing someone by proxy isn't much different than praying for his or her soul without having been asked to do so, which most Christian denominations do in one way or another. In either case, believers are asking God to intervene and "convert" a non-believer.

But it feels really disrespectful, doesn't it?

 

[Fairy1]

It really does. Here I am trying to stay all open- and fair-minded and then they go and pull that sort of stunt! Unbelievable!

I supposed in theory that baptizing someone by proxy isn't much different than praying for his or her soul without having been asked to do so, which most Christian denominations do in one way or another. In either case, believers are asking God to intervene and "convert" a non-believer.

But it feels really disrespectful, doesn't it?

It's creepy, IMO. This is a very common practice of the LDS church, yet it is not widely known outside of the religion. Though I was raised with many children of the Mormon faith, I was a grown woman with children of my own when I first learned of it.

Yes, I believe it's terribly disrespectful.

 

[Nova]

It's creepy, IMO. This is a very common practice of the LDS church, yet it is not widely known outside of the religion. Though I was raised with many children of the Mormon faith, I was a grown woman with children of my own when I first learned of it.

Yes, I believe it's terribly disrespectful.

Well, I've known about it since I was a young man reading about religion. In fairness, I don't think the LDS Church makes the practice a secret. It's the reason why they have the most extensive genealogy library in the U.S.: so that members can track down their ancestors for "baptism".

And I suppose from the Mormon point of view it's a question of disrespect v. eternal damnation, so disrespect may seem worth the risk. Personally, I'm at an age where I don't understand any adult taking literally the nonsense that every system of dogma puts out. And I don't just mean the Mormons.

(This isn't to say I think all religious beliefs are silly. I'm just talking about the more extreme, literal notions that really aren't compatible with the creator of an infinite universe.)

 

[Fairy1]

Well, I've known about it since I was a young man reading about religion. In fairness, I don't think the LDS Church makes the practice a secret. It's the reason why they have the most extensive genealogy library in the U.S.: so that members can track down their ancestors for "baptism".

And I suppose from the Mormon point of view it's a question of disrespect v. eternal damnation, so disrespect may seem worth the risk. Personally, I'm at an age where I don't understand any adult taking literally the nonsense that every system of dogma puts out. And I don't just mean the Mormons.

(This isn't to say I think all religious beliefs are silly. I'm just talking about the more extreme, literal notions that really aren't compatible with the creator of an infinite universe.)

Nova, you are such a charming diplomat!

I'm sorry but, I will never be a proponent of this practice. And I will never understand why the Church of Scientology demands silence from those who choose to leave.

 

[wfgodot]

Daily Mail finally finds the story:

Top Scientologist tells how she was 'beaten and tortured while locked
up for 45 days in Church's ant-infested desert compound trailer'

• Debbie Cook 'one of 100 Scientology executives imprisoned in a large trailer'
• She claims Scientology chairman David Miscavige punched another senior executive in the face and wrestled him to the ground
• Miscavige 'ordered his secretary to slap Mrs Cook'
• One senior member 'made to lick a dirty floor for half an hour'
• Testimony is embarrassing for Church, which took legal action to prevent her from revealing details its lawsuit has now allowed her to expose in court

all that and more (pictures, a video) at link above

 

[Seek&Find]

It really does. Here I am trying to stay all open- and fair-minded and then they go and pull that sort of stunt! Unbelievable!

I supposed in theory that baptizing someone by proxy isn't much different than praying for his or her soul without having been asked to do so, which most Christian denominations do in one way or another. In either case, believers are asking God to intervene and "convert" a non-believer.

But it feels really disrespectful, doesn't it?

Yes, I think this was cultish, creepy, and wrong.

I'll have to disagree about praying for someone though. Baptizing someone into your faith after they're deceased is taking away their choice of faith. In Christian faith, the Holy Spirit draws people to God, and it's up to that person to choose to believe, follow, etc, and we know not all will choose that path. Probably unclear Christianese, but I'm trying. so maybe I get a point for that amongst the tomatoes?