FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #4

[Yoda]

But if that is the case, how can GZ be claiming self-defense? If Tray took off running how did he attack GZ? I think it is a contradiction to what GZ is claiming.

Salem

TM came toward the truck, then took off running. GZ got out to follow then lost TM. GZ was heading back to the truck when TM attacked or confronted him. (can't remember wording from article).
It doesn't have to be an either or situation. All of those things could have happened. That was how GZ reported it. I will duck out to find the link brb.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-03-24/trayvon-martin-friends/53744670/1

 

[mikeysmommom]

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706789/miami-judge-stabbing-in-the-back.html

Your MSM link for Greyston Garcia.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/ne...stand-your-ground-defense-key-in-trial-022312

Your MSM link for Trevor Dooley

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115558&highlight=father+killed+front+daughter

Websleuths Thread on Trevor Dooley.

IF Trayvon saw the gun it might have been like what happened between Dooley and James.Just speculation we need more info.JMO.
I am not saying Trayvon did this but if he did,it would make more sense about them wrestling IMO.
Dooley, who at the time was 69, is accused of shooting James after they argued over a teen skateboarding at the park. James lunged at Dooley when he realized he had a gun, investigators say.

 

[Talina]

I don't have GZ's statement, but from what police chief seems to be saying, GZ claims that he was attacked after he got out of his truck, and was returning back to the truck.

I saw that the police chief has said that and I just don't see how that is possible for two reasons:

1) - there just does not seem to be time for that to have happened

and

2) - based on where this all happened, it was not near his truck so he sure seemed to have followed Trayvon for quite a ways before he decided to turn and head back to his truck. We know (or seem to know) based on reports from the gf, there was a verbal altercation - this doesn't seem to me to have happened while GZ would have been headed back to his truck.

IMO

I'm not saying the police chief is lying. I'm saying that somewhere along the way, this story has been told by someone and the chief has repeated what he has been told. I don't believe it to be plausible.

 

[LolaMoon08]

I don't have GZ's statement, but from what police chief seems to be saying, GZ claims that he was attacked after he got out of his truck, and was returning back to the truck.

And this is why it is really important that we get the original written statement and recorded interview from the night of the shooting. I do not trust what this Police Chief says.

I want to see what the cameras in this community has captured? I know we have cameras at the clubhouse here in my gated apartment complex? So a camera should capture Trayvon at the clubhouse. Cameras should capture Trayvon entering the complex. They may even capture Zimmerman getting out of his car? Who knows? Hopefully, since it doesn't appear Sanford Police looked into them, that they have not been erased over?

 

[jjenny]

I saw that the police chief has said that and I just don't see how that is possible for two reasons:

1) - there just does not seem to be time for that to have happened

and

2) - based on where this all happened, it was not near his truck so he sure seemed to have followed Trayvon for quite a ways before he decided to turn and head back to his truck. We know (or seem to know) based on reports from the gf, there was a verbal altercation - this doesn't seem to me to have happened while GZ would have been headed back to his truck.

IMO

I'm not saying the police chief is lying. I'm saying that somewhere along the way, this story has been told by someone and the chief has repeated what he has been told. I don't believe it to be plausible.

Doesn't sound like a convincing story to me either. It certainly would be helpful if we had GZ's statement.

 

[vlpate]

But if that is the case, how can GZ be claiming self-defense? If Tray took off running how did he attack GZ? I think it is a contradiction to what GZ is claiming.

Salem

BEM: One possibility would be that Trayvon took off running, hid behind a bush or building, and when GZ stopped looking for him, and was headed back to his truck, Trayvon stepped out and confronted GZ, "why are you following me?". GZ asks, "what are you doing here". Trayvon thinks it's none of GZ's business and clocks him. A fight ensues, Trayvon is fatally shot. Would this be self-defense? I don't know. If Trayvon had a gun and felt afraid for his life when he saw GZ following him, and shot GZ, would it fall under SYG?

 

[Talina]

I really don't understand what GZ's lawyer was saying, because stand your ground law doesn't just cover someone in their house. And what exactly is a difference between defending oneself and standing your ground anyway?

IMO, what he meant is that he wasn't standing his ground since he left his vehicle to pursue Trayvon, which is what many legal experts and Florida lawmakers have been saying now for over a week. This law does not apply here. His lawyer seems to be on that same page. This law does not apply here.

Aside from that, then he has the standard self defense claim which people have always had but he has to prove it to a bit of a different process and standard, if I am understanding the procedures. That is why I asked about the affirmative defense question.

Self defense claim becomes an issue for the finders of fact - the jury.

IMO

 

[annalia]

I saw that the police chief has said that and I just don't see how that is possible for two reasons:

1) - there just does not seem to be time for that to have happened

and

2) - based on where this all happened, it was not near his truck so he sure seemed to have followed Trayvon for quite a ways before he decided to turn and head back to his truck. We know (or seem to know) based on reports from the gf, there was a verbal altercation - this doesn't seem to me to have happened while GZ would have been headed back to his truck.

IMO

I'm not saying the police chief is lying. I'm saying that somewhere along the way, this story has been told by someone and the chief has repeated what he has been told. I don't believe it to be plausible.

The police Chief has said quite a few things before a thorough investigation, that were inappropriate, unprofessional and inexcusable. I would tend to put this statement in the same category.

JMHO

 

[jjenny]

IMO, what he meant is that he wasn't standing his ground since he left his vehicle to pursue Trayvon, which is what many legal experts and Florida lawmakers have been saying now for over a week. This law does not apply here. His lawyer seems to be on that same page. This law does not apply here.

Aside from that, then he has the standard self defense claim which people have always had but he had to prove it to a bit of a different process and standard, if I am understanding the procedures. That is why I asked about the affirmative defense question.

Self defense claim becomes an issue for the finders of fact - the jury.

IMO

But the law says you can defend yourself any place you can legally be. So if GZ got out of his truck he is still in the place where he can legally be. He doesn't have to be in his truck or his home for him to be under "stand your ground" law (assuming he doesn't attack anyone first).

 

[Talina]

But the law says you can defend yourself any place you can legally be. So if GZ got out of his truck he is still in the place where he can legally be. He doesn't have to be in his truck or his home for him to be under "stand your ground" law (assuming he doesn't attack anyone first).

He's not "standing his ground" if he pursues the person. Once he leaves his ground and starts to pursue, as he did when he left his vehicle, he leaves the situation that law is drafted to address. Trayvon had not threatened him with any harm prior to him leaving the safety of his vehicle.

If he had stayed in his vehicle, Trayvon approached, threatened him and was subsequently shot by GZ, I think he'd have a much stronger argument that the SYG law applies. That is not what happened.

IMO

ETA: I don't think anyone is suggesting that GZ was anywhere he was not legally permitted to be and that is not the issue. The issue is that SYG law protections fly out the window when the person is not threatened but yet leaves their position of safety and then creates the threatening situation by pursuing or following someone.

Now, once the verbal confrontation takes place, it at some point became physical, someone is killed and GZ claims he did it in self defense. The standard self defense claim that is on the books but is different that SYG law is what would apply here, not the SYG law.

 

[Yoda]

It would be helpful to listen to previous calls GZ made to LE about suspicious people in the neighborhood. Did he follow any? Did he approach any? What is his pattern of behavior?

 

[jjenny]

As far as I can tell, the law applies to Zimmerman, as long as he where he could legally be and assuming he didn't attack anyone first.

"Few dispute the right of people to defend themselves inside their homes. The problem comes when both parties have a right to be where an assault has occurred, as in the Martin case, said Jacksonville, Fla., defense attorney Eric Friday, who lobbied for "stand your ground." "You fall back on who was the aggressor," he said."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-stand-your-ground-20120325,0,1383205.story

 

[Yoda]

He's not "standing his ground" if he pursues the person. Once he leaves his ground and starts to pursue, as he did when he left his vehicle, he leaves the situation that law is drafted to address. Trayvon had not threatened him with any harm prior to him leaving the safety of his vehicle.

If he had stayed in his vehicle, Trayvon approached, threatened him and was subsequently shot by GZ, I think he'd have a much stronger argument that the SYG law applies. That is not what happened.

IMO

It is not against the law for GZ to follow anyone. His intention was probably to follow and see where TM goes.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

But if that is the case, how can GZ be claiming self-defense? If Tray took off running how did he attack GZ? I think it is a contradiction to what GZ is claiming.

Salem

Here's a thought about that part of the 911 call. GZ says "yep, he's coming to check me out" - could have been that Trayvon had started walking towards GZ in his truck.

Then when GZ says "he's running" - maybe Trayvon took a very quick turn to go in between buildings or down another road so that GZ would no longer have him in sight and Trayvon either ran or "walked fast" doing that.

IIRC at the point in the 911 call is when we hear the sounds of GZ getting out of the vehicle. What I said above corresponds with that as Trayvon was now between buildings out of the line of sight GZ had in his vehicle.

JMHO but that's how I interpret that part of the call.

 

[jjenny]

He's not "standing his ground" if he pursues the person. Once he leaves his ground and starts to pursue, as he did when he left his vehicle, he leaves the situation that law is drafted to address. Trayvon had not threatened him with any harm prior to him leaving the safety of his vehicle.

If he had stayed in his vehicle, Trayvon approached, threatened him and was subsequently shot by GZ, I think he'd have a much stronger argument that the SYG law applies. That is not what happened.

IMO

His ground is anywhere he can legally be. He doesn't have to be in his home or truck.

"The law removes the duty to retreat in the face of a perceived threat, and it allows the use of force virtually anywhere — a home, an ice-cream shop, a public sidewalk or a jogging trail."
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-stand-your-ground-20120325,0,1383205.story

 

[thefragile7393]

Tht is what I want to know too...Why did not the boy just run home?
Why did he go to confront GZ???

Well, if someone is following you, do you want them to know where you live? Many times when the police give talks on personal safety they will tell you that if you're followed, go to a well-lit place with people around. DON'T go home-you don't want them to know where you live! So there's a logical reason why he wouldn't head that direction.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk

 

[LolaMoon08]

This is what I want ---

1) I just want to know if there was photographic evidence taken (the night of the shooting) of George Zimmerman's injuries. I don't need to see the pictures. I just want to know if pictures were taken as evidence? I think we can all admit that pictures should have been taken of George Zimmerman's injuries and recorded put into evidence?

2) What did George Zimmerman do with the clothes he had on that night? I'm only asking this because LE allowed him to leave with those clothes on? Did he wash them? Throw them away? I think we can all admit that it was a huge mistake not to collect George Zimmerman's clothes that night? Forensic evidence galore gone forever. Even if they were to get the shirt, I would think it would be too contaminated to use in court? But do they at least have any photographic evidence of the clothes George had on that night? I also have a nagging need to know if his red jacket had a hoodie on it?

3) When LE was investigating, did they even try to get access to any working cameras in the complex? I really need to know if they even attempted to gain access to them before I can even question what would be on the tapes?

4) We really need George Zimmerman's written and verbal statements. First the ones taken the night of the shooting and then any after. Yes, I have a need to know what was added at a later date.

5) I think we are all interested in exactly where Trayvon was shot? If he had any kind of other wounds (fighting, etc...)? Autopsy report would be very helpful.

I know there is more, but these are the major things I need to see?

 

[jjenny]

Well, if someone is following you, do you want them to know where you live? Many times when the police give talks on personal safety they will tell you that if you're followed, go to a well-lit place with people around. DON'T go home-you don't want them to know where you live! So there's a logical reason why he wouldn't head that direction.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk

I don't think at that time there were any well-lit places with people around in that gated community.

 

[Talina]

It is not against the law for GZ to follow anyone. His intention was probably to follow and see where TM goes.

I've never said it is against the law for GZ to follow anyone. I've said that I believe once he did that, he lost any claim to the SYG law to be applicable in his defense. He was no longer standing his ground. He was following and leaving his protected ground.

I'm definitely not alone in my belief of this as this has been the opinion stated by many legal experts. Local Florida defense attorneys have spoken to this and said it does not apply (Richard Hornsby has also spoken up and said this as well), even his own attorney has now said it does not apply.

IMO

Richard Hornsby, an Orlando-based criminal defense attorney, says he thinks the grand jury is likely to indict Zimmerman for manslaughter, a second-degree felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison. Less likely is a more serious charge of second-degree murder, a crime that implies intent and that is punishable by up to life in prison, he said.

“This case isn’t even a close call to me. This is a case of a guy trying to be a vigilante,” Hornsby said. “It wasn’t like he was trying to avoid trouble. He brought a firearm to a fistfight.” http://patdollard.com/2012/03/flori...ould-complicate-trayvon-martin-shooting-case/

 

[LolaMoon08]

I also want to know exactly when George Zimmerman went in for medical attention?

Do we have any nurses or doctors who could tell me about how long it would take for a serious cut to the head to heal enough to where stitches were no longer needed?