FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #4

[csziggy]

I am just wondering if the police took GZ red shirt for evidence and underneath it he had on a white t shirt.JMO

If GZ was wearing a red shirt or jacket, would blood on it have been visible in the dark when using a flashlight?

 

[Talina]

If TM attacked GZ it was self defense. Following someone does not give that person the right to punch you in the nose or push you to the ground.

Which is probably why his defense attorney has spoken out and said this is a case of self defense but not the SYG law.

IMO

 

[momshrink]

Wonder if Zimmerman is in Virginia with his parents?

<modsnip>

GZ's parents live in Lake Mary, Fl. The family moved to Florida when GZ graduated high school.
I will try to find a link for this.
JMO

Not suggesting anyone mail or in any way contact GZ's parents!
JMO

 

[csziggy]

I don't have GZ's statement, but from what police chief seems to be saying, GZ claims that he was attacked after he got out of his truck, and was returning back to the truck.

But that scenario does not fit with the location of the body or the places where 911 calls have for an altercation. The body and any altercations reported were between the rows of townhouses, well away from the roads.

I don't know if this was GZ's story or non-acting police chief Bill Lee's tale, but it just doesn't hold water.

My opinion only.

 

[Talina]

Please respond to what we were discussing. Following is not against the law.

This is continuously said by you and others. Is anyone stating that GZ broke any laws by following Trayvon? I have only seen people saying it is what escalated the situation and in so doing, it is their opinion (which by the way is shared by many legal experts speaking out about the case - including his own lawyer) that at this juncture is where the SYG law no longer applies. No one is saying he broke any laws by getting out of his vehicle to follow Trayvon.

IMO

 

[Reality Orlando]

If he had earbuds in and he missed something she said he could have told her he didn't hear her because he was pulling up his hood. Could be any number of reasons and until we hear an official statement it's really just what someone else is reporting. jmo

Could they have been on Skype? She would have been able to see him if they were. Just curious. I Skype all the time with my Mom and my son and it's becoming a lot more commonplace especially with 'Droids and I Phones.

 

[Talina]

It certainly does under FL "stand your ground" law.

Doesn't one have to have a reasonable fear for their life or serious injury by the other person's actions? I can't imagine someone being punched in the nose would qualify as being a reasonable fear for either.

IMO

I think there is a very liberal interpretation of the SYG law on this forum by some people insisting it does apply to this incident. Yes, there may be a scant few legal experts on the air saying similar interpretations but from what I've seen and read, the majority of legal opinions are overwhelmingly saying it does NOT apply here. From what I have gathered, the reasons have nothing to do with where the incident occurred but everything to do with how it was initiated - with GZ leaving his vehicle. After hearing his own attorney say the law does not apply, I think I am done even debating it.

Again, all my own opinion.

 

[Belinda]

My personal opinion is that GZ's injuries came from the gun. I suspect he didn't spend much time at the shooting range. If he stood with his arms straight out in front of him, holding the gun, it is likely he was unprepared for the kickback and the gun came back and smacked him in the nose. This followed through and knocked him on his butt where he hit his head. I personally feel this is the most likely scenario for GZ's injuries. I don't believe that Trayvon hit him. It just doesn't match with the rest of what we know about him.

ETA: I would like to know how long he had that carry permit.

 

[Reality Orlando]

This is not nice to think about but does anyone know what an entry wound and exit wound would look like from a 9mm gun shot? I know sometimes it is hard to tell. jmo

A lot would depend on the type of ammo.

 

[csziggy]

I am not the one who made this map. I quoted from another poster. I know it's a simple mistake, but I just want everyone to know that I did not post or make this map and the credit should go to the person who did make it.

I made that map but did not put the two black arrows on it.

My explanation of the lines and marks from my original posting:

This has my speculative recreation on it. GZ lived at the back of the subdivision where the red # mark is. GZ according to what he told the PD on his call was near the clubhouse - I marked his possible location with a red @. The locations are based on the map from the Orlando Sentinel that has been posted on earlier threads.

Trayvon walked into the subdivision along the turquoise line. Trayvon was headed to his father's girlfriend's house about where the yellow & is. Trayvon's body was found about where the turquoise * is - behind the house marked with the red A marker.

Somewhere near the clubhouse (red @) according to both GZ and Trayvon on their calls to SPD and the girlfriend, the two men saw each other. Trayvon ran off and GZ lost track of him. If Trayvon ran along the green line and went in between the rows of townhouses, GZ could not have seen him from his vehicle traveling along the roads.

The pink line is my speculation about where GZ traveled. I think he either headed (1) to the back entrance of the subdivision, which coincidentally was the direction Trayvon was headed; or (2) up the road in front of the townhouses, then cut through one of the gaps between the townhouses. Both routes would allow GZ to cut off the 'suspect'.

GZ could have (3) drive to the corner where he last saw Trayvon and simply followed the same path. Without knowing where GZ's SUV was parked when LE got there, this is all speculation.

I don't think there was enough time for (1). (2) does not allow for Trayvon to be aware that GZ had followed him. I think it was probably (3).

Looking at this map, you can see why GZ was confused about his directions to the operator on his call to SPD. He kept saying to come in the entrance, then turn left but he had trouble trying to tell them to turn left at the second road after they came in the entrance.

The map on the Marinade Dave site - http://marinadedave.com/journal/2012/3/22/the-tragedy-of-trayvon-martin.html - shows the pickup being at the curve, right where a truck is parked on the map I posted. So my scenario (3) seems to be what happened.

 

[LambChop]

Um, no. When a human being was killed it could be suicide, a complete accident, or manslaughter, self-defense OR it could be homicide.

A human death isn't necessarily murder.

A death caused by another person is homocide. DUI death involving another is homocide, vehicular homocide in an accident, self defense is justifiable homocide, manslaughter is homocide, suicide is not.

"The killing of one human being by another human being.

Although the term homicide is sometimes used synonymously with murder, homicide is broader in scope than murder. Murder is a form of criminal homicide; other forms of homicide might not constitute criminal acts. These homicides are regarded as justified or excusable. For example, individuals may, in a necessary act of Self-Defense, kill a person who threatens them with death or serious injury, or they may be commanded or authorized by law to kill a person who is a member of an enemy force or who has committed a serious crime. Typically, the circumstances surrounding a killing determine whether it is criminal. The intent of the killer usually determines whether a criminal homicide is classified as murder or Manslaughter and at what degree."

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Homicide

 

[LambChop]

A lot would depend on the type of ammo.

That is why I asked about that type of gun.

 

[momshrink]

GZ had no right to be stalking TM, watching him, following him, chasing him -- he was a self-appointed neighborhood watch captain with no legitimate affiliation with a founded neighborhood watch group. TM, on the other hand, had every right to conceal his identity and hurry home when he felt he was being stalked/watched/followed/chased by some unknown person with unknown motives.

To me, this smacks of "she deserved it because she was wearing a short skirt."

:goodpost:

 

[Anadarko]

My personal opinion is that GZ's injuries came from the gun. I suspect he didn't spend much time at the shooting range. If he stood with his arms straight out in front of him, holding the gun, it is likely he was unprepared for the kickback and the gun came back and smacked him in the nose. This followed through and knocked him on his butt where he hit his head. I personally feel this is the most likely scenario for GZ's injuries. I don't believe that Trayvon hit him. It just doesn't match with the rest of what we know about him.

ETA: I would like to know how long he had that carry permit.

My concealed carry weapon is the same as GM shot TM with. Kel Tec PF9 9mm. Very strong recoil due to the size of the gun. I shot this gun at the range just yesterday, and it had been awhile, so I have to remind myself that the first shot is gonna be different from my other guns. Very loud with a real kick!!

Now let's suppose GM hasn't had alot of practice, or was a little beside himself and not in control, or was under the influence of any drugs or alcohol, he could have been a little unsteady on his feet. It's also more difficult to move and shoot, and he could have lost his balance and fallen.

MOO

 

[LambChop]

His ground is anywhere he can legally be. He doesn't have to be in his home or truck.

"The law removes the duty to retreat in the face of a perceived threat, and it allows the use of force virtually anywhere — a home, an ice-cream shop, a public sidewalk or a jogging trail."
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-stand-your-ground-20120325,0,1383205.story

The difference between "his ground" is whether he should have been there or did he arrive at the place because he was pursuing TM. According to his own Neighborhood Watch Program GZ had no right to pursue. Had he followed both the NWP instructions and those of LE he would have stayed in his truck and observed only. Chasing someone is an act of engagement. Obviously if GZ admits TM was running GZ had to have been chasing him to catch up. TM's gf said TM was trying to get away and felt he had lost him. Pictures of the scene show no bushes, large trees, etc. where TM could have hidden to jump out at GZ. GZ confronted TM in the open, on a sidewalk right outside the condo porches. GZ was not in his truck as he was instructed by LE to wait until a patrol car got there.

If you call in an incident and LE tells you they will meet you at certain place you better be there. Once GZ moved his truck, or left it, and did not advise LE he was hindering their investigation. How would they know where to go? GZ took off and did not tell them where he was going. If GZ were truly concerned about LE not letting "this one get away" he would have been on the phone with dispatch to let them know where he was located so they could easily find him. He did not do that because GZ decided it was a matter that he, himself needed to handle because this one was NOT getting away. jmo

 

[Reality Orlando]

Here's something else that has bothered me. Reading the police report it says in one of the statements that another officer arrived and tried to "get a response" from Trayvon. Really? As an LE you arrive on scene and see someone face down with arms underneath and all you do is try to get a response from them? Really? Wouldn't you check first to see what injury that person has that caused them to be face down with arms underneath? I found that very odd. What did that officer do? Walk up to Trayvon, bend down and say "hey, guy, what happened?' Really? C'mon.


JMHO

I've read that the officers tried to perform CPR when they first arrived until paramedics got there. Is that not true? There is so much info out there it's hard to tell what's true or what's conjecture.

 

[momshrink]

Does anyone know how long it usually takes to get reports and info under the sunshine laws? I did follow some cases in FL but my brain has been severely damaged from the Anthony case and I can not remember.Do we have to wait till after the Grand Jury? for a release of things like autopsy?

Under the sunshine law reports and info are released after the investigation about them is done. If they are still investigating the info, it will be kept under wraps.
I learned this in caylee's case.

 

[Velouria]

Wow, the pics are good, the commentary, not so much, lol.

On the contrary. I think Marinade Dave did an excellent job of summing things up.

IMO.

 

[Adrienne37]

The link to all of the 911 calls is also found on the Sanford city's website under the Trayvon Martin Investigation. It's been on there since it was all consolidated into one location.

 

[Adrienne37]

I guess there must have been a lot of people that didn't follow Caylee's case because we had a great lesson when Dr. G took the stand and explained what homicide was.