MA - Lizzie Borden: Axe murders, Fall River, 4 Aug 1892

[KarlK]

But since Mr. Borden had a well known reputation in town as being an very unpleasant man, it is possible that no man in town wanted him as a father-in-law.

That is a possibility indeed but if such was the case the fact remains that Borden did not display any interest in men even after her father's demise, which is intriguing.

 

[believe09]

I do want to add a few things here in terms of perspective....and fwiw I became completely fascinated by the Borden murders because I grew up not far from where they were committed and my dad had a number of books regarding the case. I would sneak them when I was a teen

First of all, this was not a warm and fuzzy family. These were stoic New Englanders not really given to much in the way of either affection or hysteria. Lizzie may very well have looked calm but have been about to drop from the events of the day, hence Alice's insistence on staying and the Dr's application of laudanum to help her sleep.

They were also penny pincher's to the nth degree-I am completely unsurprised to read that Lizzie had the old sofa recovered and continued to use it. This was a family that ate leftovers regardless of their age and kept scraps of everthing in the event they could be reused....lead for sinkers, broken axes etc.

Given that Abby was facing her killer, I have to believe that Lizzie walking into the room with an axe, either covered with a slicker or naked (depending on your favorite version) would have caused her to react. So who ever approached Abby was someone who did NOT cause her to react much even though they were carrying an axe...which is why my vote is Bridget.

But I think that Lizzie had an idea of what was going on in the house that day....or certainly what had happened. Only because we know she wasnt in the barn (the dust was undisturbed) and it was hot as Hades that day...

I do not think either Borden girl was heartbroken at the death of their parents. I think they were relieved. I think that Lizzie was at a minimum asexual-I mean who would not be put off of men after living with one such as Andrew? He was not a nice guy, although I dont know if I buy the incest theory. He loved Lizzie to a degree, I think. This was an extremely rigid and oppressed family-and I think the Uncle had more than a little bit of knowledge himself. JMO.

 

[sneezy]

I do want to add a few things here in terms of perspective....and fwiw I became completely fascinated by the Borden murders because I grew up not far from where they were committed and my dad had a number of books regarding the case. I would sneak them when I was a teen

First of all, this was not a warm and fuzzy family. These were stoic New Englanders not really given to much in the way of either affection or hysteria. Lizzie may very well have looked calm but have been about to drop from the events of the day, hence Alice's insistence on staying and the Dr's application of laudanum to help her sleep.

They were also penny pincher's to the nth degree-I am completely unsurprised to read that Lizzie had the old sofa recovered and continued to use it. This was a family that ate leftovers regardless of their age and kept scraps of everthing in the event they could be reused....lead for sinkers, broken axes etc.

Given that Abby was facing her killer, I have to believe that Lizzie walking into the room with an axe, either covered with a slicker or naked (depending on your favorite version) would have caused her to react. So who ever approached Abby was someone who did NOT cause her to react much even though they were carrying an axe...which is why my vote is Bridget.

But I think that Lizzie had an idea of what was going on in the house that day....or certainly what had happened. Only because we know she wasnt in the barn (the dust was undisturbed) and it was hot as Hades that day...

I do not think either Borden girl was heartbroken at the death of their parents. I think they were relieved. I think that Lizzie was at a minimum asexual-I mean who would not be put off of men after living with one such as Andrew? He was not a nice guy, although I dont know if I buy the incest theory. He loved Lizzie to a degree, I think. This was an extremely rigid and oppressed family-and I think the Uncle had more than a little bit of knowledge himself. JMO.

I really think that there were a lot of factors that contributed to the family dynamic that was "poisoning" to Lizzie's character. I think the fact that her father cut off the gas to the house and made them use oil lamps, sold the horse and carriage, and to me...seemed to dominate the women in the house totally and utterly, I really think this caused Lizzie to repress a lot of feelings.

I am a medium, as in yes, I see dead people, can pick up on energies and the like. I went to the house not long ago...and while I can't back up my theory with actual evidence, I can tell you my impressions of the house. I didn't pick up much actually related to the muder surprisingly enough. The feeling that overwhelmed me, that made me sick to my stomach and gave me a headach was OPRESSION. Total oppression. I did NOT expect that when I got there. I thought the murders/death would "slap" me in the face but they didn't, it was the opression of Andrew/the father. You know when you walk into a room after 2 people have had an arguement and the air feels all thick and even if the people are not talking, you can tell that they had been arguing? That's what the house felt like to me, except it was so much stonger.

I just "feel" that there was more to the Andrew domination of the family than just words. I just have this gut feeling that at some point one, if not both of the girls had been molested in some way or abused. I think in such a society where "marrying" girls were ones that were "pure" that possibly this is why neither Lizzie or Emma ever married. Sort of like they were "tainted". I think this gives great weight to your comment about them being "asexual".

If you look at the layout of the house, the room known now as "Lizzie's room" that opened directly to the Master bedroom, was originally Emma's. I also read that when Emma had the room, the door was not blocked. It was only when Lizzie got older that she traded rooms with Emma, Emma moving into the smaller room and Lizzie taking the larger room that connected with their parents room. It was only after Lizzie took this connecting room that the door was then locked and blocked with a desk. Since Lizzie is generally regarded as the one with the stonger personality, I sincerely believe that she was trying to protect her sister from their father.

I agree that neither one was heartbroken. I think they were more relieved that the oppression would stop. The person that abused them, their father and his wife who allowed it to occur were gone.

I just think that Lizzie had gotten to a point where she just couldn't take it anymore. First the abuse, then getting written out of the "new will", Andrew also supposedly killed her pidgeons (she had a coop of them). I think she just snapped. I think that is why she tried to buy the poison. I think she just wanted it all to stop. Poison is a very passive way to kill someone, nonconfrontational and a favorite of women killers. Whether she was able to buy prussic acid from another druggist or if she used some ineffectual poison the day before that caused the "food poisoning" we'll never know.

I think this is also why when the Borden's died, the neighbors rallied around the girls. I think they knew "something" was wrong in the Borden family, but abuse be it physical or sexual was not talked about in Victorian times. You minded your own business and a man had a "right" to hit his wife or children. I think the neighbors understood why it happened...but yet when the trial was over, Lizzie was still either a) a murderer b) in on it and that was why she went from being a cause "celebe" to pariah.

As far as Lizzie being either naked or wearing a rain coat...I don't think that was really necessary. If you go to the Fall River Historical Society, they have the white bedspread on display that was on the bed that Abby was making when she was killed (still unwashed). Dispite being white and only inches away from where Abby was hacked to death, there was VERY little blood splatter. It astounded me that someone who was hacked to death with almost 20 blows would not give off more splatter. Other than the large pool of blood under Abby, I'm not sure exactly how much total splatter was visible in the room. This is why I think that Lizzie was wearing the dark dress that her friend Alice saw her burning a few days after the murder. Andrew received fewer blows and there was supposedly only a few lines of blood splatter up the wall and a few drops on the ceiling. Most of the blood would have been flung away from the killer I really don't think that unless they hit an artery where the blood spurted out onto the killer, the splatter on the killer would be less than what you might think. It was also mentioned that Lizzie's closets were NOT searched. This is because all of the police men were MEN and due to Victorian code of conduct they could not search her or her personal closets for fear of seeing her underwear. (it didn't matter if she was in them or not) She could have easily slipped back upstairs, slipped off the dark colored dress, hid it in the back of the closet, pulled another one over her head, wiped her face/hands and called for help...in just a few minutes.

I did read somewhere (forgive me I'll have to look it up to quote the source) that ONE small drop of blood was observed on the white petticoat under her dress but that as it was "that time of the month" she was questioned no farther about it, again, due to the Victorian code of conduct.

these are just my conjectures based on all of my reading/research as well as my impressions of the property so take them for whatever that's worth.

 

[believe09]

Thank you for your perspective sneezy. I dont think the question regarding incest will ever be answered one way or another, sadly. I think that Emma and Lizzie lived a relatively free life after the deaths and Lizzie did much good in the community.

What kind of strength would it take to repeatedly hatchet someone, and certainly for the number of blows both victims suffered? That is a lot of energy on an incredibly hot and humid day to boot. To do it not once but twice is pretty amazing. So, maybe, there were two killers-Bridget and Lizzie since they were both in the house...

 

[Zoe Bogart]

I haven't read through this entire thread, but I will. Just wanted to say it was surprising to find this here since I just recently read quite a bit on this case elsewhere. Previously, I had only know "the basics", since the story has been talked about for a century in books and movies, and especially in that jump rope rhyme, where I first heard it decades ago and still remember the words!

My recent interest stems from just finding out I'm distantly related to Lizzie and her family through her mother's Morse line. Interesting Morses include Samuel Morse of Morse Code fame. I don't recall my exact relationship to Lizzie, but it's quite distant.

In May of 1918 a crazy man was on the lose in the United States. He was killing people in New Orleans. At the beginning it seemed that he was attacking immigrants, but than he began to kill others too. He would take their own axe, kill people with it, and than leave the weapon there to be found. He killed everyone no age, race or creed was exempt.

I remember reading about the axeman. It's a rather colorful local story, so one day, our college criminal law professor assigned it. I can't recall all the details but I do remember discussing it in class. I vaguely remember there was some question whether all the murders were done by the same person. In other words, there could have been copycats, someone wanting to do away with another, and the axeman was the perfect scapegoat. It's a bit fuzzy. A Google search for "axeman New Orleans" brings up all sorts of stuff on it.

I am trying to find some similar info from these families to Ms. Borden's parents. If we could find some evidence to this, we might be able to link the two cases. Lizzie may not have murdered her parents after all.

I'd prefer not to be considered a connection to these stories, even though I'm a native New Orleanian and am related to Lizzie and her family! I stand firmly on my statement, "I didn't do it".

Thanks for starting this thread. Now I'll get back to reading about Lizzie.

 

[Zoe Bogart]

I would like to read more about Lizzie's brother (or half-brother).

I wanted to tell you I read a book about 10 years ago, not sure of the publishing date, in which the author focused on the half-brother, William.

Seems like, IIRC, the first chapter or so gave the history and details of the crime. After that, the rest of the book was all about William and why the author thought he was the murderer.

In a way, the book was similar to that one Patricia Cornwell wrote, entitled Jack the Ripper: Case Closed, in that the book focused on trying to prove William was the real culprit. Not sure hemade quite the claim Cornwell did in claiming the case was closed - lol. It was an interesting read, as, at the time, I'd never even heard of the illegitimate half - brother. I wish I could remember the title but I can't.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know there is at least one book out there that focuses entirely on William.

I found this at Wikipedia:
Another potential culprit was forwarded by Arnold R. Brown in his work, Lizzie Borden: The Legend, The Truth, The Final Chapter, in which Brown theorizes that the true culprit was an illegitimate paternal half-brother named William Borden, as a revenge killing in his failed efforts to extort money from his father.

It was published in 1991 and is available through Amazon sellers and other locations.

A documentary video regarding Brown's theory of William's assumed guilt and other related videos can be found here:

http://www.videomeli.com/video/TjPheZblQL4/arnold-browns-theory-of-the-lizzie-borden-case.html

William S. Borden died in Fall River, 17 April 1901, found hanging from a tree with a vial of poison nearby.

If what is said is true about Lizzie and the cat, I would suspect that gal was capable of anything:

http://ghosts-hauntings.suite101.com/article.cfm/haunted-lizzie-borden-house

 

[Asker]

Yes it is in Mass. But it wouldn't be the first time something like this happened. For instance, Jeffrey Dahmer, as a child lived in WA state. When he was 12, a little girl went missing from her home in WA state, less than two blocks from where the 12 yr old Dahmer lived. Although the crime has never been proven to be him, many people now believe that it was Dahmer's first kill. When his parents moved when he was 14, he went with them. And no more killings, (that we know of anyway), happened until he was much older. Years and years went by, with his muderous streak staying dormant. The child in WA was found murdered not long after she went missing. Again, this happened on the other side of the country.

You are confusing Ted Bundy with Jeffrey Dahmer here. Bundy as a boy lived in WA and a little girl went missing and was believed to be killed by Bundy. Dahmer never was into women or little girls and never lived in WA. He lived in West Allis, WI as a boy and then the family moved to Bath, OH where he killed a 18 year old hitch hiking boy when Dahmer was 17 or 18. He then joined the army and was in Germany for several years before moving back to Milwaukee, WI where he killed some 17 to 20 men. All of his victims were male.

Regards from Milwaukee, WI.

 

[4Jacy]

Hi everyone! For Christmas I received a B&B at Lizzie Borden's home. We haven't gone there quite yet, due to my husband's health. However, we will be going in Sept. (I hope.) I have read about this case forever and ever, and I still, to this day believe, Lizzie Borden did this to the step-mother she hated, and to her father (whom she loved,) but could not reconcile the fact that her father loved her step-mother, nor the fact that he was so generous to her!!

An opinion, but not very humble. (Eating pears, looking for lores in excruiting heat inside the top of the "barn.") Yeah, that happened!!

 

[Melanie]

I just don't know if she did it either. Yes, she burned her dress, but I think that would be the least of her worries. If she hacked two people to death she would need one heck of a hot shower. Imagine body bits and pieces in your hair, under your nails, and blood in every nook and crannie. The house had no bathrooms.

I don't recall reading anything about bloody footprints. I'm not even sure the local police would see them, or if the scene was already contaminated.

I don't know, back in those days maybe she put a hat on and cleaned herself up. But where? And wouldn't there be bloody towels left behind? Or maybe she burned those too.

Just thinkin out loud.

Mel

 

[Gardenlady]

Never realized there was a Lizzie thread here!

I too am very close to Fall River, and in fact my husband and I were gifted with an overnight stay at the Borden house back around 1998 or '99, courtesy of my father, who, like me, was always fascinated by the case. We both read everything we could get our hands on about it.

We stayed in the guest room, where Abby was murdered. To be very honest, if you are sensitive at all, do not stay in this room, lol. For many hours, both my husband and I were unable to sleep. At about 2 am, husband finally said out loud, "Okay Abby, I need some rest, here ya go", and put his pillow on the floor in the spot where she was found. He was asleep about 5 mins later. On the other hand, I remained awake all night, and eventually went downstairs to join one of the caretakers who was watching TV in the front room!

As another poster said, the house is oppressive. It is smaller in both room and feel than the impression you get from diagrams and pictures in books. It reminds me a great deal of my grandparents' old Victorian in a town nearby Fall River. One room opens into the next. There is really no way to avoid others in this house. Strangely, the area I felt the strongest negativity in was the basement, which was so creepy that I had to leave the guest 'tour' and go back upstairs to catch my breath.

I have some pics somewhere of most of the interior of the house, I'll see if I can dig them up and post a few.

My personal theory has changed and shifted with time. I've always thought it was odd, though, that the murders happened to occur at the same time as the unannounced visit from Morse, and further, that Emma was away for the murder. I always found the "*advertiser censored* son" theory to be a bit out there. I do think if it wasnt Lizzie, she knew who, how, and why it was done. My Irish grandmother was positive that Bridget was the killer. When asked why, she always said in her accent that I can still hear, "have YOU ever had to cook and eat mutton stew for days on end?!". I swear she hated the Bordens as if she were the over-worked, poorly treated Bridget herself, and was secretly proud and admiring that the old man, especially, might have been done in by Bridget! :crazy:

I'll check a bit later for some pics, and hopefully upload some.

 

[bessie]

A few updates on Lizzie Borden. The Fall Rivers Historical Society has acquired handwritten journals of Borden attorney Andrew Jackson Jennings. Jennings was the Borden family's attorney and a member of Lizzie's defense team. The journals were passed on to the FRHS by Jennings' recently deceased grandson, Edward Saunders Waring, in his will.

By Deborah Allard Herald News Staff Reporter
Posted Mar 05, 2012 @ 12:04 AM

One of the journals acquired lists the names of people Jennings interviewed or wanted to interview in building the defense case. The other journal, a scrapbook of newspaper clippings about the case, is marked for research.
“He cross-referenced everything, and he used a lettering and numbering system,” [FRHS curator] Martins said...

In looking through the journals, Martins said he’s discovered information that has never been published.

Some of the comments Jennings noted in his journals are from individuals who knew the Bordens, and who observed activities near the Borden home in the hours preceding the murders.

He [Martins] said there are interesting comments about Mr. Borden’s relationship with his daughters, which he often called “his girls.” He spoke of his desire to see “his girls” well taken care of, and that he “wanted a nice place for them” and to see them well settled.

Copyright 2012 Wicked Local Fall River. Some rights reserved

Read more: Handwritten journals from Lizzie Borden lawyer donated to FRHS - Fall River, MA - Wicked Local Fall River http://www.heraldnews.com/news/x178...e-Borden-lawyer-donated-to-FRHS#ixzz1oq67brj0
​

Martins said the historical society will eventually publish the journals.

In November of last year, FRHS curator, Michael Martins, and Dennis Binette, assistant curator, published "the definitive" Lizzie Borden biography, Parallel Lives: A Social History of Lizzie Borden and her Fall River. The authors say the 1179 page book contains never before seen information about Borden from a compilation of "cards, letters, gifts and photographs" she left to friends upon her death in 1927, and from their own extensive research.

By Deborah Allard
Herald News Staff Reporter
Posted Nov 18, 2011 @ 8:54 PM

“It was a lot of investigative work. We pieced together generations and history. Tracking some people down took years.”

The book uses Fall River and many other families woven in its fashionable Victorian society as a mechanism to learn about Lizzie and her life.
“She is presented in a way she’s never been seen before,” Binette said.

“She’s been made out as a cold, stoic individual. A completely different story emerges. You get a much better sense of the woman.”

Letters, notes and cards written in Lizzie’s hand, as well as photos never seen before, transform Lizzie from myth to the old lady she actually became, sitting on her piazza, known as “Auntie Borden” by the children of her friends.

Copyright 2011 Wicked Local Fall River. Some rights reserved

Read more: Definitive Lizzie Borden biography hitting bookshelves next week - Fall River, MA - Wicked Local Fall River http://www.heraldnews.com/news/x194...y-hitting-bookshelves-next-week#ixzz1oqON5afq
​

Also, HBO miniseries about Lizzie Borden is in the works.

http://www.wickedlocal.com/fall-riv...-begin-shooting-later-this-year#axzz1opwpDEJY

 

[diphi]

I just stumbled on this thread. How fascinating that we're still trying to solve this case! Can't wait to read it all when I have more time.

IMO

 

[wfgodot]

Lizzie Borden's $650,000 home goes on sale 120 years after
unsolved murder of her parents that has gripped America ever since

The house where notorious murder suspect Lizzie Borden lived out her life after being acquitted of using an axe to kill her father and stepmother has gone on the market for $650,000.

The 14-room Queen Anne Victorian home in Fall River, Massachusetts, is up for sale for double what similar houses in the area typically fetch due to its history.

Quiet librarian Miss Borden, who was famously acquitted of her father and stepmother's murder in 1892, moved to the property four years later and lived there until her death in 1927, aged 66.

The house, known as Maplecroft, includes seven bedroom, four bathrooms, a grand entry foyer, two sunrooms, seven fireplaces, original parquet floors, tin ceilings and mahogany moldings.
---
The latest development in this ongoing cold case has been the recent discovery of journals written by her family's lawyer at the time of her murder trial.

The two handwritten diaries, by Andrew Jennings, were given to the Massachusetts society by Jennings's grandson, Edward Waring, in his will after he died last year.
---

Much, much more, including an excellent summary of the case, many pictures, and a video, at Daily Mail link above.

WS has had over the years a few Borden-specific threads, the most active one having been started in April 2009:

Lizzie Borden - Old, old case - New, new angle

So - if you had the cash to throw around, would you buy the old Borden place? I think I would!

 

[badhorsie]

Maybe I would, as long as I didn't have to sleep there

 

[wfgodot]

I would be thinking of recouping a part of the investment by renting rooms by the evening to seance- and/or Ouija board-obsessed folks set on contacting her spirit. As whomever killed the family didn't kill them on-site (that house is now a museum; yes, I'd like to take the tour!), I don't suppose bludgeoning ghosts wielding axes lurk about on its premises. Odd dreams could certainly be had, though, I suspect.

 

[Jack]

I would. This is going to sound weird but I have this thing about 'touching history'. I love history and every time I have visited a historical house or other location and I walk the floor or touch a door I think about the fact that I am walking in the very place and touching the very thing that these historical figures did and it gives me goosebumps. Now Lizzy's historical significance may be a little on the macabre side but I think I would still buy her house if I had 650k lying around.

 

[capps]

I feel the exact same way Jack!

 

[Gardenlady]

My husband and I stayed there when it was first a b&B sometime around 98 or 99. I meant to dig up my pics (which aren't that great, since we didn't have a digital camera then, so they're scans) and post them on one of the other threads. I'll have to see if I can get them over later this morning, after the kids go off to school.

We stayed in the guest room, where Uncle John was staying at the time of the murders, and where Abby was killed. Big mistake staying in that room if you want a good nights sleep lol. :crazy:

 

[Gardenlady]

Ohoh wait, this is Maplecroft, Lizzie's home later in life? That'll teach me to read the links, haha.

I'll have to go read it now, as the guy who USED to own the house at one time was a friend of my father's (not sure if it's the same guy, I'll go check). He had some stories. Also, he was a weird, creepy dude himself.

Bbl after I read lol.

Edit- Yep, same guy.

 

[txsvicki]

I just tonite saw a tv show about this and decided to google. Hardly any sites make much mention of andrew's coat on the back of the couch. He would not have put it there. Only the killer would have. Most people seemed to think lizzie may have worn it to shield her dress from blood but i think it was to somewhat protect the corner of the couch and pssibly the sleeves of her dress. Also it is covering the wooden trim of the couch where the arm might hit while using the hatchet at such an angle. Only lizzie would have been able to know her parents habits and be able to strike so quickly without a struggle. Also lizzie seemed to be extremely manipulative, resentful and jealous. Shd despised abby so she should have scoffed and ridiculed abby's notions of poison instead of running around setti g up a motive.