FBI considering hate crime charges against Zimmerman #1

[Maxim]

BBM



Well Trayvon had that. It was called his Autopsy.

Nope, an autopsy didn't inspect TM's actions, emotional state of mind, or his tendencies toward others of a different race.

If you can attribute intentions to one, you can attribute intentions to the other. Even-handedly inspect both. (with malice toward none)

 

[songline]

Did GZ not follow, confront, and subsequently kill Trayvon?

This is what I wrote. I stand by it.


Originally Posted by songline
hmmmm BBM - based on this description, there is no room to consider what if Tryavon did jump him?
Based on your description it sounds like GZ profiled, perused and killed... THAT IS NOT what happened.

 

[songline]

Actually that is exactly what happened considering TM was not involved in any crime and in GZ's call to LE he starts off by saying there have been breakins in the past and TM looks suspicious. GZ never reported a crime he saw TM committing. GZ knew also there had been an arrest of someone living in the community who was doing the breakins. Since TM was NOT involved in a crime, it makes it profiling. Gilbreath said GZ was profiling. The FBI is investigating for profiling. Does it rise to the level of a "hate" crime, I doubt it unless the FBI has more information. But GZ fits the description to a T when you look up the definition of profiling. Even down to the part where he was "acting" on behalf of LE and essentially doing their job for them.

Also that first site that GZ had, the one he set up himself with the picture of the black church that had the "hate" message on it, not going to do GZ any favors. It made it look as if he supported that type of activities. IMO the money contributed from those who do support that type of behavior would have been welcome by GZ at the time. jmo

AGAIN: Hi Lambchop and what IF Trayvon jumped him???
because if there wasn't an altercation there would not be a dead body either.

 

[Lovelymountains]

So, based on 200 years of race relations, our black citizens are justified in "profiling" a white man. Was this white man responsibile for those 200 years? Not unless this white man was 200 years old; and, if he was that old he would be the one in more danger from a crack in the sidewalk.

The Founders pulled a slick trick against the pro-slavery faction. "All men are created equal" paved the way for all men to begin this "human race" equally. White men.

White men fought a war because of equality. My great-grandfather died in the Civil War--fought for the Union, captured and brutalized, he died in a camp. It made a big difference in my grandfather's life, and a difference in my father's life. My gasoline costs the same; there is no benefit from what happened 150 years ago.

Legislators passed Civil Rights Laws. Largely White Men.

So, if it's proven that GZ shot TM with malice because he was black, he goes to jail--based on fact.

<Mod Snip> Of course no one is 200 years old. I wasn't at Ford's Theatre on the night Lincoln was shot, but I know about it and believe it happened. And George Washington spending the winter at Valley Forge? No, I wasn't there, either. I know about it though.

My Great-Great Grandfather, a member of the Army of the North, was wounded at the seige of Vicksburg. I wasn't there, either, but it is on his tombstone. And no, I'm not 149 years old, but I know about it. In fact, he couldn't join the Union Army in the town where he lived, it was Confederate, so he went to a neighboring state to join the Grand Army of the Republic.

So one should learn from history. African Americans who are alive today didn't have to personally live through slavery to know that it happened. They didn't have to live through the days of Jim Crow to understand the plight of their ancestors. Many of them lived through and participated in the Civil Rights struggles of the 1950s. Rosa Parks would have remembered that well, I'm sure. She refused to take a back seat on a public bus.

Maybe we should honor the memories of our ancestors who fought to free the slaves by treating African Americans as we would wish to be treated and not place so little value on their lives as to condone and approve of the murder of an unarmed young black man. IMO If George Zimmerman is found "Not Guilty" in State Court, he should be tried under Federal Law for violation of Trayvon Martin's Civil Rights. And I pray he would be convicted.

Engraved above the entrance of the Supreme Court Building are the words, "Equal Justice Under the Law." That has some meaning to me.

 

[Maxim]

Why? GZ is not dead. TM did not call LE stating GZ was acting suspicious of a crime that was not committed. FBI is looking into a hate crime. TM did not show up at GZ's house, nor attempt to follow him home. This is not a tit for tat situation. jmo

GZ didn't show up at TM's house, either. He didn't *follow* him home because he couldn't find him. He didn't *follow* TM home because he didn't know where TM resided; TM was a stranger.

If the FBI were looking into a hate crime in a vacuum, that would be a sincere disappointment. Truth is important, and it's not usually one-sided.

"Not tit for tat" . . . even-handed, impartial to neither side, looking for the truth.

 

[LambChop]

Nope, an autopsy didn't inspect TM's actions, emotional state of mind, or his tendencies toward others of a different race.

If you can attribute intentions to one, you can attribute intentions to the other. Even-handedly inspect both. (with malice toward none)

So what are you saying? That FBI should be checking TM out because he's black? The reason the FBI is looking at GZ is because he's not so squeaky clean and obviously that call to the dispatcher might have set off some hinky meters. jmo

 

[LambChop]

GZ didn't show up at TM's house, either. He didn't *follow* him home because he couldn't find him. He didn't *follow* TM home because he didn't know where TM resided; TM was a stranger.

If the FBI were looking into a hate crime in a vacuum, that would be a sincere disappointment. Truth is important, and it's not usually one-sided.

"Not tit for tat" . . . even-handed, impartial to neither side, looking for the truth.

Let's put it this way and a quote from an FBI agent.... "we follow the evidence". Repeated time and time again by law enforcement agents because that is exactly what they do. I think they have the truth whether it measures up to a hate crime will remain to be seen.

Truth is important given Gilbreath's testimony in court that GZ gave inconsistent statements. That somehow does not equal truth. jmo

 

[songline]

That's just silly. Of course no one is 200 years old. I wasn't at Ford's Theatre on the night Lincoln was shot, but I know about it and believe it happened. And George Washington spending the winter at Valley Forge? No, I wasn't there, either. I know about it though.

My Great-Great Grandfather, a member of the Army of the North, was wounded at the seige of Vicksburg. I wasn't there, either, but it is on his tombstone. And no, I'm not 149 years old, but I know about it. In fact, he couldn't join the Union Army in the town where he lived, it was Confederate, so he went to a neighboring state to join the Grand Army of the Republic.

So one should learn from history. African Americans who are alive today didn't have to personally live through slavery to know that it happened. They didn't have to live through the days of Jim Crow to understand the plight of their ancestors. Many of them lived through and participated in the Civil Rights struggles of the 1950s. Rosa Parks would have remembered that well, I'm sure. She refused to take a back seat on a public bus.

Maybe we should honor the memories of our ancestors who fought to free the slaves by treating African Americans as we would wish to be treated and not place so little value on their lives as to condone and approve of the murder of an unarmed young black man. IMO If George Zimmerman is found "Not Guilty" in State Court, he should be tried under Federal Law for violation of Trayvon Martin's Civil Rights. And I pray he would be convicted.

Engraved above the entrance of the Supreme Court Building are the words, "Equal Justice Under the Law." That has some meaning to me.

This problem is between two people and anyone who
paints either one of them by color is not dealing with this case.


God Bless Rosa Parks, MLK and all those who did make a difference
in civil liberties. GOD is definitely looking upon them kindly.

This case has nothing to do with any of it.

 

[songline]

So what are you saying? That FBI should be checking TM out because he's black? The reason the FBI is looking at GZ is because he's not so squeaky clean and obviously that call to the dispatcher might have set off some hinky meters. jmo

FBI should be looking at BOTH - MOO

 

[Maxim]

Maybe we should honor the memories of our ancestors who fought to free the slaves by treating African Americans as we would wish to be treated and not place so little value on their lives as to condone and approve of the murder of an unarmed young black man. IMO If George Zimmerman is found "Not Guilty" in State Court, he should be tried under Federal Law for violation of Trayvon Martin's Civil Rights. And I pray he would be convicted.

Engraved above the entrance of the Supreme Court Building are the words, "Equal Justice Under the Law." That has some meaning to me.

Maybe we should honor our ancestors by treating ALL AMERICANS as we would wish to be treated: Fairly, honorably, honestly, and with even-handed Justice. Waiting to decide until all the information is in--hearing all the facts.
Treating all people equally, without bias, without malice.

"Equal Justice Under the Law" and equality everywhere else.

 

[LambChop]

FBI should be looking at BOTH - MOO

Why would they have to. I think all of TM's FB, Twitter, school records have been exposed and certainly on WS's overexposed. I don't believe TM attacked GZ because GZ was arrested. He was arrested because they did an investigation which INVOLVED both TM and GZ. Somehow the FBI feels justified in looking at GZ for hate crimes. Everyday people are coming forward with comments GZ has made regarding people of color. When the FBI finishes they will have a profile. They will either say we have nothing or they'll bring charges. The more people who come forward with their stories, the more likelihood that others will come forward, too, because they may realize what they thought was innocent "joking" might be a pattern.

Like the man who said GZ joked about him tripping over his lip and he did not take offense because he was sitting with a mixed group. This happened years ago, this man claims he did not take offense but yet he remembered the incident. That tells me he did take offense and did not want to look foolish in front of the others because they all laughed. People can be insensitive but sometimes it shows a pattern. jmo

 

[suzihawk]

If Zimmerman's other friends and acquaintances are anything like Taaffe is representing himself to be on twitter, he's a big world of trouble where a hate crime is concerned. IMO

 

[LambChop]

Maybe we should honor our ancestors by treating ALL AMERICANS as we would wish to be treated: Fairly, honorably, honestly, and with even-handed Justice. Waiting to decide until all the information is in--hearing all the facts.
Treating all people equally, without bias, without malice.

"Equal Justice Under the Law" and equality everywhere else.

Only a jury has to hear all the facts and judge fairly, honorably and honestly. Sometime a poster only has to hear someone has told a lie and that person who lied loses all credibility. Each lie confirms their opinion. Justice comes by way of the legal court system not by following someone when you're asked not to, finding yourself in an altercation and ending it by shooting that person. I think a straightline shot through the chest was all I needed to know about this shooting. jmo

 

[LambChop]

If Zimmerman's other friends and acquaintances are anything like Taaffe is representing himself to be on twitter, he's a big world of trouble where a hate crime is concerned. IMO

It amazes me how FT cannot keep his mouth shut. He keeps involving himself deeper and deeper. You get the feeling that FT has had a big influence over GZ and not the other way around. Certain statements FT makes are right on the edge. jmo

 

[rotterdam]

That's not how diversion works in my state. IMO, it is a genuine attempt to get people back on track by giving them a second chance and avoiding their acquiring a criminal record that might hinder getting employment. I evaluated our state's diversion program a few years ago. It had a low recidivism rate which I think is encouraging. I think it helps that the program is provisional; people in the program know that if there's a second charge within the year which results in a conviction, they will also be prosecuted on the first charge as well. If someone can stay out of trouble for a year there's a good chance he'll continue to do so.

As I recall, a significant number of the cases involved shoplifters caught leaving the store with items they didn't pay for in their pockets or purses. There were also first time assault cases where it was felt that the defendant might not repeat the offense if they attended anger management classes. Reading the reports, it didn't seem to me that diversion was being offered because of weak cases. It's not a money maker for the state; there are no fees paid to the state and the anger management courses are offered by non-profit organizations (some require fees and some with grants don't). It does save the state the cost of prosecution but not the cost of probation.

..

I also think it is basically a very good program for minor offenses and its subsequent expungement of criminal records. In my state, certain DUI/drug offenses are also included in those type of plea bargaining. There are qualifying ground rules and depending on the offense category, not always up to the discretion judge and prosecutor but might require mandatory prison time. Justice in the USA often sadly depends on the size of your wallet.
Some darn good expensive defense lawyers/expert witnesses out there.
I also think that some none affluent innocent folks do plea no contest/plea bargain in certain situations due to financial cost if they want to pursue it further and/or have a convincing public defender.
The FBI AFAIK is famous for plea deals and gets most of their convictions that way. They have a whole arsenal of nifty laws which they can duly impress a defendant with and that do not exist at the State level. No FL SYG type at Fed level either. If GZ does get a conviction at State level, very iffy IMO because of SYG past cases, doubt if the FBI will even get involved. They often only get involved if a conviction peters out at the State level and providing they can locate a some type of Fed offense.. Generally lots of politics involved if a high publicity case.JMO.

 

[persnickety]

It amazes me how FT cannot keep his mouth shut. He keeps involving himself deeper and deeper. You get the feeling that FT has had a big influence over GZ and not the other way around. Certain statements FT makes are right on the edge. jmo

It seems to me that if you give someone like Frank Taaffe enough rope, they will hang themselves. My thoughts are this - let him keeping on talking. He's not doing himself any favors and he certainly isn't doing his buddy any favors. What comes around goes around so to speak.



my opinion only

 

[wishuwerehere]

Defining a Hate Crime A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias. For the purposes of collecting statistics, Congress has defined a hate crime as a "criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender's bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation." Hate itself is not a crime&#8212;and the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes/overview

I see a very thin line in the Zimmerman hate crime investigation based on the above definition.

I believe Zimmerman was motivated IN PART by Trayvon&#8217;s race, but also by his age (Trayvon being young translates to him being vulnerable), Trayvon&#8217;s clothing, and the fact that Trayvon was solitary (vulnerable) at the time of the incident.

I believe Zimmerman has an intolerance for the following:

A young, black male, showing his culture through clothing and speech, and being found alone.

Intolerance equals hate. The FBI says hate is protected by free speech. However, if a crime is committed &#8220;in part&#8230; against a race&#8221; then it constitutes as a hate crime.

I don&#8217;t know if hate crime charges will be filed. Although based on my above opinion on Zimmerman&#8217;s intolerance, I believe he has no chance of immunity under the SYG law.

jmo

 

[LambChop]

Defining a Hate Crime A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias. For the purposes of collecting statistics, Congress has defined a hate crime as a "criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender's bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation." Hate itself is not a crime—and the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes/overview

I see a very thin line in the Zimmerman hate crime investigation based on the above definition.

I believe Zimmerman was motivated IN PART by Trayvon’s race, but also by his age (Trayvon being young translates to him being vulnerable), Trayvon’s clothing, and the fact that Trayvon was solitary (vulnerable) at the time of the incident.

I believe Zimmerman has an intolerance for the following:

A young, black male, showing his culture through clothing and speech, and being found alone.

Intolerance equals hate. The FBI says hate is protected by free speech. However, if a crime is committed “in part… against a race” then it constitutes as a hate crime.

I don’t know if hate crime charges will be filed. Although based on my above opinion on Zimmerman’s intolerance, I believe he has no chance of immunity under the SYG law.

jmo

So essentially what you are saying is putting up a picture on your website of a black cultural center with the words Long Live Zimmerman in white spray paint was not a good idea? jmo

 

[RANCH]

..

I also think it is basically a very good program for minor offenses and its subsequent expungement of criminal records. In my state, certain DUI/drug offenses are also included in those type of plea bargaining. There are qualifying ground rules and depending on the offense category, not always up to the discretion judge and prosecutor but might require mandatory prison time. Justice in the USA often sadly depends on the size of your wallet.
Some darn good expensive defense lawyers/expert witnesses out there.
I also think that some none affluent innocent folks do plea no contest/plea bargain in certain situations due to financial cost if they want to pursue it further and/or have a convincing public defender.
The FBI AFAIK is famous for plea deals and gets most of their convictions that way. They have a whole arsenal of nifty laws which they can duly impress a defendant with and that do not exist at the State level. No FL SYG type at Fed level either. If GZ does get a conviction at State level, very iffy IMO because of SYG past cases, doubt if the FBI will even get involved. They often only get involved if a conviction peters out at the State level and providing they can locate a some type of Fed offense.. Generally lots of politics involved if a high publicity case.JMO.

Excellent post Rotterdam. From looking online it appears that the federal hate crime act passed into law in 2009 has been rarely used. So I'm wondering if this case has enough merit for the feds to charge GZ with it. I would assume that there must be a lot more cases that are in obvious violation of the federal hate crime act. Why is this hate crime prevention act not being used? Is it only used when it serves a political purpose? JMO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard_and_James_Byrd,_Jr._Hate_Crimes_Prevention_Act

 

[gxm]

So what are you saying? That FBI should be checking TM out because he's black? The reason the FBI is looking at GZ is because he's not so squeaky clean and obviously that call to the dispatcher might have set off some hinky meters. jmo

BBM.

Where does the commenter you were replying to say that TM should be checked out "because he's black"? IMO, that's a huge, and unfair, leap to make.