George Zimmerman's injuries #2

[cityslick]

If that is a bruise on the back of GZ's head it looks the same shape as the flashlight. GZ did say that TM jumped him and when he fell TM was banging his head on the sidewalk at the cut through. We know that is not where they ended up. So maybe GZ did fall at that point. Could be he started towards TM and dropped his flashlight and keys (which were found in that area) and slipped and fell backwards hitting his head on the flashlight. Or TM resisted GZ from stopping him. The shape of the bruise looks more likely he hit his head on it while it was on the ground rather than someone hitting him over the head with it which would produce a different shaped bruise, IMI.

Or GZ dropped his flashlight and TM saw an opportunity to jump him, GZ falls backward and lands on the flashlight?

 

[zenreaper]

I think, IMO, do not have proof, going from these thoughts>>>>

*A couple of GZ's friends were said to be talking to him during and right after the struggle/shooting, even before the LE arrived.

*The blood in the unofficial, ABC photo looks to me to be so fresh and has not even run down to his collar and is not smeared like it would be if injured on the ground.

*GZ knew right off he was in a heap of trouble after he could not find a gun or stolen merchandize on Trayvon when he frisked him after the shooting.

*GZ knew he was not injured that seriously, he was not unconscious, bleeding, shot, knifed or hit with a baseball bat, etc. He needed something else besides the few scratches on his nose and head.

So, I think GZ asked one of his friends there to hit him on the back of the head so he would have something additional to justify the shooting. The friend grabbed the closest thing in reach off his porch or carport, something off his grill? some tongs are rounded at the ends and heavy and could have made that U-shaped imprint. Or some other type of tool, any suggestions?....The same friend took the picture.

IMO

There is ZERO evidence that GZ "frisked" or even reached into TM's pockets.

 

[cmsg2002]

Not based on the current evidence. No witness statement or LE report mentions any 'friend' at or near GZ after TM was shot.

I mean, we can make up scenarios all day long but I think there should be some link to what has already been released to somehow support the argument.

like I mentioned above, I'm not inclined to buy into the 'friend' theory at the moment, but I'm also not willing to narrow the possibilities to just 2 right now either. have to wait for more evidence to be released.

 

[AJ Noiter]

Do u happen to know where the first aid kit on scene came from? was it from spd or a resident/friend??

I replied to you here:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7957731&postcount=171"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - George Zimmerman's injuries, per leaked reports #2[/ame]

 

[tehcloser]

I really don't think EMT's carry "first aid kits".........it was probably one of the neighbors, or even one of the LE's, but not the EMT's.

 

[AJ Noiter]

I really don't think EMT's carry "first aid kits".........it was probably one of the neighbors.

The officer that brought over the breathing mask is most likely, in my opinion.

 

[Lovelymountains]

However GZ got those minor scratches on the back of his head, they could not, by any stretch of the imagination,have been caused by his having his head repeatedly slammed into a cement walkway. Maybe he hid in bushes which had some of thorns until he saw TM passing by and jumped out at him and grabbed him in an effort to illegally detain him. If that's the case, TM would certainly be within his rights to defend himself by punching GZ in the nose, although even that is doubtful because of the condition of TM's hands. If he hit him hard enough to cause the minor cut on GZ's nose, then there should be some cut or abrasion on TM's hand. I see little, if any, bruising on the back of GZ's head and it is not possible to believe that GZ was having his head repeatedly smashed against a cement sidewalk and not have extensive brusing, abrasions, splits, etc. I believe GZ was in a rage because TM would not meekly let him "Apprehend" him and so, in that rage, shot him dead. I don't believe for one minute that GZ feared for his life at all. I think he feared that he would fail in his mission of illegally detaining TM.

 

[Lovelymountains]

BBM. That is the part I wonder if it was in his first statement. Or if it was added later since the evidence AFAIK did not support it without that "scrambling". RZ senior also emphasized that "scooting" away in one of his interviews..
May be the reenactment the next day was a result of that (added?) info.

IMO, the tale was enhanced time and time again to try to make it conform to the evidence. TM was not near the sidewalk, so IMO they had to tell a tale which would explain why he wasn't. How could someone scramble away with a 5'11" guy on top of him firmly grasping one's head and smashing it into a cement walkway? Back to the drawing board with that one.

 

[AJ Noiter]

IMO, the tale was enhanced time and time again to try to make it conform to the evidence. TM was not near the sidewalk, so IMO they had to tell a tale which would explain why he wasn't. How could someone scramble away with a 5'11" guy on top of him firmly grasping one's head and smashing it into a cement walkway? Back to the drawing board with that one.

Nit-picking and Off Topic here, but I think it's normal for measurements at autopsy to not match up with known measurements. One example, outside of Mr. Martin, is Whitney Houston - she was 5'8" but at autopsy they recorded her as being 5'1". Maybe one of our friendly medical professionals can help us out with this - I'll ask over in the autopsy thread.

 

[MikeF]

First off hello to everyone, I've read here a lot of times over the years but never joined.

On the discussion of what could have made that odd U shape injury?

I saved a photo of his head as well as his gun and then cropped everything off so I just had the image of the gun and flipped it point to the right. I put it over the head photo and I made the gun somewhat transparent so you could see what injuries were under what parts. Obviously I couldn't scale to exact measurments but the area around the trigger does fit the U and certain areas of the gun also match marks on his head.

Being new I'm not sure I can post my results so maybe someone can let me know, or try it themselves?

 

[Reader]

Do u happen to know where the first aid kit on scene came from? was it from spd or a resident/friend??

No, I don't...the docs just stated it as 'owner not listed'....

 

[Reader]

How did all of that happen and not one witness or even LE saw that? Or even saw someone else with GZ at that time? Other witnesses say he was over TM, or he was walking away. The cop showed up within one minute of the shooting. When exactly would there be enough time for that to happen as well as no one else seeing this other person or the person doing what you describe?

Au contraire....a couple of witnesses mention 'friends' of GZ coming out and asking him what happened; one witness saw a couple of friends standing with him nearby after the shooting...see the docs, witness statements

Link:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

 

[AJ Noiter]

First off hello to everyone, I've read here a lot of times over the years but never joined.

On the discussion of what could have made that odd U shape injury?

I saved a photo of his head as well as his gun and then cropped everything off so I just had the image of the gun and flipped it point to the right. I put it over the head photo and I made the gun somewhat transparent so you could see what injuries were under what parts. Obviously I couldn't scale to exact measurments but the area around the trigger does fit the U and certain areas of the gun also match marks on his head.

Being new I'm not sure I can post my results so maybe someone can let me know, or try it themselves?

First, welcome to the forum!

I'd like to see that actually, but first I'd recommend getting the scaling proper. I could make something fit out of scale, but in scale is key. The dimensions of the gun are: 5.85" length, 4.3" width. The average size of a human head, since we don't have Mr. Zimmerman's measurements, is 6" wide and 9" long. Basically, the length of the gun should be nearly the width of the head. As far as posting them, I believe you can attach them to your posts by scrolling down in Advanced mode.

 

[zenreaper]

Au contraire....a couple of witnesses mention 'friends' of GZ coming out and asking him what happened; one witness saw a couple of friends standing with him nearby after the shooting...see the docs, witness statements

Link:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

Do any of those same witnesses mention any of GZ's friends BRAINING him with anything? Just sayin'...

 

[zenreaper]

However GZ got those minor scratches on the back of his head, they could not, by any stretch of the imagination,have been caused by his having his head repeatedly slammed into a cement walkway. Maybe he hid in bushes which had some of thorns until he saw TM passing by and jumped out at him and grabbed him in an effort to illegally detain him. If that's the case, TM would certainly be within his rights to defend himself by punching GZ in the nose, although even that is doubtful because of the condition of TM's hands. If he hit him hard enough to cause the minor cut on GZ's nose, then there should be some cut or abrasion on TM's hand. I see little, if any, bruising on the back of GZ's head and it is not possible to believe that GZ was having his head repeatedly smashed against a cement sidewalk and not have extensive brusing, abrasions, splits, etc. I believe GZ was in a rage because TM would not meekly let him "Apprehend" him and so, in that rage, shot him dead. I don't believe for one minute that GZ feared for his life at all. I think he feared that he would fail in his mission of illegally detaining TM.

First of all, can you PROVE that the injuries on his head CANNOT be gotten by having your head head against the ground?

As far as GZ hiding, then jumping out and grabbing TM, why would TM's last DOCUMENTED phrase be, "Why are you following me?"?

As far as TM having a mark on his hand from hitting GZ...umm, TM DOES have a mark on his hand.

 

[tehcloser]

Hey AJ, doesn't he have to have a certain number of posts before he can post pics or am I mis-remembering? lol. Maybe like 50?

 

[AJ Noiter]

Hey AJ, doesn't he have to have a certain number of posts before he can post pics or am I mis-remembering? lol. Maybe like 50?

That may be, but he can always use imageshak/etc and post a link to it in his post

 

[cityslick]

However GZ got those minor scratches on the back of his head, they could not, by any stretch of the imagination,have been caused by his having his head repeatedly slammed into a cement walkway. Maybe he hid in bushes which had some of thorns until he saw TM passing by and jumped out at him and grabbed him in an effort to illegally detain him. If that's the case, TM would certainly be within his rights to defend himself by punching GZ in the nose, although even that is doubtful because of the condition of TM's hands. If he hit him hard enough to cause the minor cut on GZ's nose, then there should be some cut or abrasion on TM's hand. I see little, if any, bruising on the back of GZ's head and it is not possible to believe that GZ was having his head repeatedly smashed against a cement sidewalk and not have extensive brusing, abrasions, splits, etc. I believe GZ was in a rage because TM would not meekly let him "Apprehend" him and so, in that rage, shot him dead. I don't believe for one minute that GZ feared for his life at all. I think he feared that he would fail in his mission of illegally detaining TM.

If he was hiding in a bush and then jumped out to 'apprehend' TM, then the GF is lying about what she heard then. Because according to her it was TM that spoke to GZ first.

 

[Reader]

Do any of those same witnesses mention any of GZ's friends BRAINING him with anything? Just sayin'...

Do any of the witnesses mention Trayvon beating GZ's head on the sidewalk?
No, but it is repeated over and over as something that actually happened just because GZ supposedly told this to LE. Have we seen any of his LE statements yet?

 

[LambChop]

First of all, can you PROVE that the injuries on his head CANNOT be gotten by having your head head against the ground?

As far as GZ hiding, then jumping out and grabbing TM, why would TM's last DOCUMENTED phrase be, "Why are you following me?"?

As far as TM having a mark on his hand from hitting GZ...umm, TM DOES have a mark on his hand.

I think the issue with LE is GZ was no where near cement or the location he said he was injured according to the placement of TM's body. TM's head was located about 4 yards off the sidewalk, his head towards the porch if the pictures we see are correct. How could TM be slamming GZ's head onto the cement when they were no where near the sidewalk?? GZ said he shifted his head slightly off the cement not moved it 4 yards away.

TM had between a 1/4 or 1/8 inch mark/cut on the finger next to his left ring finger and not on the knuckle. TM is righthand dominate. I believe it was closer to the nail portion. Not the type of wound you would find on hands that were trying to slam someone's hairless head onto cement. You would expect to see scrapes on the knuckles of both hands. You can't grab someone's head with just one hand and control the movement of their head unless you are holding onto it with both hands. Plus the sidewalk was too far away for this to have happened the way GZ stated it happened. jmo