Australia Australia - Corryn Rayney, 44, Como, WA, 7 August 2007

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Dark horse said:
...The papers refer to the accused as a former DPP prosecutor however it should be remembered that many of the criminal barristers work for the DPP before going into private practice. I think there are defense barristers out there whose ambition can override their moral and the justice system is a game they are out to win.
There can be no consideration for their client's victims and they can be desentitised to crime and its impact. Perhaps it's their 'coping mechanism so they can reconcile the fact that they are assisting criminals to escape culpability for their crimes.' JMHO as to why a criminal defense lawyer is not as unlikely a suspect as the papers make out.

This MSM article talks about some of the cases that LR has been involved with over the years.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/news/14225297/lloyd-rayney-from-prosecutor-to-accused/

...
Someone made reference to the husband's body language when he was asked about his wife's relationship with the accused. It made me wonder who else's career or reputation was on the line when the deceased threatened to go public. This was a situation involving allegations of adultery, money concealing and gambling. Who else stood to profit from the silencing of the deceased? Was there an accomplice?

Good questions! :)

Back to the car, found near the bridge partner's vacant residence. Kershaw is not the first street off Hetesbury. A spade and star picket were found on Hetesbury. The murderer drove down Hetesbury past Townsend Rd (north and south). There was backtracking to Kershaw (from the gravesite, it's is in the opposite direction to the home of the accused.) Why Kershaw? Was this part of the original plan to dump the vehicle or was that an afterthought once the car was damaged? Was the idea to wash up in a vacant house? There would have been a lot of soil on whoever dug that grave.

Great points! :)

...It wasn't until after her autopsy and funeral that the accused was declared a suspect. Time to destroy evidence....

That is a big problem. If LR is guilty, he has had plenty of time to destroy evidence.

The deceased hated hankies. But was clearly willing to by them for her husband. Maybe the hankie was put there as a mark of derision? Is it a catholic practice to fold the arms of the deceased? Certain elements of this smack of non-randomness.

Yes, I would love to hear a criminal profiler's view about some of these things - especially the folding of the hands.

His smugness has worked against him and IMO the public's perception of his guilt comes from this more than from the police naming his as a suspect. The accused said at the funeral, "to know her was to love her." Can you imagine sitting with that smug look on your face as the prosecution shows autopsy photos and pictures of the grave of the mother of your children who you claim to love?

Totally agree.
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I have included my comments in bold and underline within the snipped body of Dark horse's post.
 
Gemini Girl said:
It concerns me that the trial Judge does not appear to think LR delaying opening his door to police, possibly for the purpose of hiding a recording device, is a serious issue?

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/pol...ney-evidence-cop/story-e6frg12c-1226440408689

If LR's recordings of Corryn's telephone conversations may have (at least in part) motivated him to commit her murder, how can recording devices and their possible secretion/removal be insignificant?

:waitasec: :dunno:

JMO MOO
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Hi Gemini Girl :seeya: (I know its the "see ya" emoticon but I couldn't find a "waves" one! :))

My impression was that the Prosecution's own witness (former major crime squad officer Marc Fogg) did not think that LR was running around hiding evidence. He was walking around accompanied by an elderly woman while talking to his lawyer on the phone. I understood that the recording equipment was removed two days before the murder (which occurred on 7 August 2007), so I'm not sure what the police were hoping to find on 20 September 2007.
 
Hello. I'm still here! Just reading posts and following the trial and taking it all in.

If CR was murdered at home and at least one of the children were home at the same time - would there not have been some fracas? How was she murdered so quietly in her own home that no strange noises were heard - at least by someone in the home? Wouldn't it be risky for LR to murder CR in their home (and a noisy struggle ensue) and the potential child could come down to see what the noise was? Why do his children stand beside him, knowing that there is evidence to suggest he killed their mother? Why are they convinced of his innocence?

The place card also has me truly confused! If CR was in Melbourne - why would their be a place card if she was not in attendance? Why take the place cards away from the venue (just thinking out loud)? How did they end up in CR's car if she did not attend the event, and her car was not taken to the event? Why? Place cards are such a weird thing to hold onto for no real reason. I've attended weddings with beautiful place cards with my name on them - which I could have kept for sentimental reasons. But a game of celebrity heads?

I am also a little frustrated about the seed pods. I think they will only be of real value now if soil identification is possible.

Sorry a bit all over the place. I hope something significant comes to light soon!
 
Rational said:
guess my question for everyone here is can the public speculating like this help the case at all?
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I think that is a great question, and maybe by being on here you have partly answered it yourself. From my experience on this site it helps to find answers and invariably more questions, but what it does so well it allows us to share and discuss things that we may not able to discuss elsewhere with family, friends or acquaintances.

It gives us more knowledge of the processes and issues involved, and it s above all a victim friendly site. So in short it IMO it may not help the victim, but it allows us to probe deeper and understand more, and maybe in some small way prevent it from happening within our own circle, or at least become more aware of the danger signs of this type of violence, particularly against women. I think the legacy of women like Allison Baden-Clay and Corryn Rainey will be that a hell of a lot more people understand the insidious nature of violence against women, and ipso facto against their children and broader families and friends. Justice goes beyond the court room JIMO![/QUOTE]

Hi Dark horse and Rational

It is indeed an excellent question you have asked Dark horse, and I think that the hope of the members of the forum is that somehow, our peregrinations may at some stage cause a lightbulb moment for somebody who is in a position to assist real justice, while not doing anything likely to actively jeapoardise the justice process.

That may be a vainglorious hope, however on the Allison Baden-Clay forum, somebody who is in a position to know (can't recall details or provide link sorry) has confirmed that the relevant authorities would be actively monitoring sites such as this, and I would like to think it was not just because we might cause a problem for them, lol

We can only hope

:please::please:

My commiserations also DH, that you and your family have had to endure being caught up in the legal system under the public spotlight.

:maddening:

JMO MOO
 
jac6007 said:
Hello. I'm still here! Just reading posts and following the trial and taking it all in.

If CR was murdered at home and at least one of the children were home at the same time - would there not have been some fracas? How was she murdered so quietly in her own home that no strange noises were heard - at least by someone in the home? Wouldn't it be risky for LR to murder CR in their home (and a noisy struggle ensue) and the potential child could come down to see what the noise was? Why do his children stand beside him, knowing that there is evidence to suggest he killed their mother? Why are they convinced of his innocence?

The place card also has me truly confused! If CR was in Melbourne - why would their be a place card if she was not in attendance? Why take the place cards away from the venue (just thinking out loud)? How did they end up in CR's car if she did not attend the event, and her car was not taken to the event? Why? Place cards are such a weird thing to hold onto for no real reason. I've attended weddings with beautiful place cards with my name on them - which I could have kept for sentimental reasons. But a game of celebrity heads?

I am also a little frustrated about the seed pods. I think they will only be of real value now if soil identification is possible.

Sorry a bit all over the place. I hope something significant comes to light soon!
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BBM
Jac I too struggle mightily with why the girls seem so convinced of LR's innocence despite all the evidence.

It would be interesting to get the perspective of a verified psychologist (I know such sleuthers exist on the Baden - Clay forum for example) as to what is going on with that.

Any such sleuthers lurking who would like to offer an explanation, however tentative, we would appreciate it.

:waitasec:

JMO MOO
 
Gemini Girl said:
BBM
Jac I too struggle mightily with why the girls seem so convinced of LR's innocence despite all the evidence.

It would be interesting to get the perspective of a verified psychologist (I know such sleuthers exist on the Baden - Clay forum for example) as to what is going on with that.

Any such sleuthers lurking who would like to offer an explanation, however tentative, we would appreciate it.

:waitasec:

JMO MOO
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I recently read about the Andrew kaljacich case where he went to jail for many years for the murder of his wife megan. I really was astounded when at the end of the article it said his children were standing by him and still think he is innocent, despite the overwhelming evidence!! He has recently been released and able to enjoy the company of his children, which seems so bizarre to me as it was such a cold and calculated. Perhaps it is common for family to believe a loved one is innocent, despite evidence to the contrary.
 
Morning all..... the following is an interesting article of analysis taken from this mornings 'Wests' website:

Defence combs evidence for holes
CHRISTIANA JONES, The West Australian
Updated August 3, 2012, 2:18 am tweet0EmailPrint
The attention heaped this week on two seed pods could leave the public wondering whether the entire wilful murder case against Lloyd Rayney hinges on them.

Certainly the liquidambar pods allegedly found in his wife Corryn's hair are an important part of the State's case.

As outlined by prosecutor John Agius at the start of the trial, they are part of the "strongest proof" Mrs Rayney was killed at the Como family home, with soil and particles inside one of them allegedly linking them to the property.

Their reliability as evidence is under fire from the defence team, who have unleashed an attack on the integrity and police handling of the pods.

But from the outset, the State has said the circumstantial case against Mr Rayney relies on no one item - rather it builds strength "with each piece of circumstantial evidence as a cable gains strength from its strands".

"At the end of all of the evidence, the prosecution will point not just to the individual items the subject of examination, but the combination of these items to prove beyond doubt that Corryn . . . came home," he said.

Evidence has yet to be heard about other samples found on Mrs Rayney's clothes, including brick and paint particles, which allegedly show her body was dragged through the Rayneys' front yard.

Until this evidence is heard, along with the six weeks of prosecution testimony to come, it is hard to know how much damage the defence team's attack has inflicted.

It will be up to the judge to decide what weight to give the pods.

What the debate about the pods has shown this week is that the defence is combing every piece of the police and forensic investigation to find holes in the State's case, whether that be a lack of "in situ" photos, missing running sheets or out-of-sequence entries in a forensics log.

It's a big task but with every piece of evidence they damage, the closer they could be to an acquittal.
 
Dodo said:
I recently read about the Andrew kaljacich case where he went to jail for many years for the murder of his wife megan. I really was astounded when at the end of the article it said his children were standing by him and still think he is innocent, despite the overwhelming evidence!! He has recently been released and able to enjoy the company of his children, which seems so bizarre to me as it was such a cold and calculated. Perhaps it is common for family to believe a loved one is innocent, despite evidence to the contrary.
Click to expand...

Good point Dodo

Perhaps it's a simple as the pain of accepting the guilt of a loved one being just too intense, so denial kicks in and normal reasoning thought processes are suspended, in order for life to be tolerable.

:twocents:

JMO MOO
 
Gemini Girl said:
It concerns me that the trial Judge does not appear to think LR delaying opening his door to police, possibly for the purpose of hiding a recording device, is a serious issue?

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/pol...ney-evidence-cop/story-e6frg12c-1226440408689

If LR's recordings of Corryn's telephone conversations may have (at least in part) motivated him to commit her murder, how can recording devices and their possible secretion/removal be insignificant?

:waitasec: :dunno:

JMO MOO
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I agree GG - just goes to show that having never been at the pointy end of crime, the judge would not have an appreciation of how the Police were thinking on that day. They had received very credible evidence that a wire tap had been installed in the home and they were keen to locate it before it vanished.
 
Dark horse said:
Deleting an email is no help to an accused. When the police search through computers I believe they can retrieve everything that has been deleted unless the whole computer has been totally scrambled by a professsional, so much so that one may as well drive over it with a steamroller. I assume the computer in question has not been steamrollered/scrambelled because if it had been there would be no point in the accused hanging onto it. The accused would be saying he doesn't want the police seeing his communications with his lawyers from that time because they are priveleged and so are his communications with his clients. The DPP could be saying they agree to exclude the legal emails from the search. But the accused can still say no and doesn't have to justify why. Frankly it's one of those areas of law that needs amending.

The article about the spade and star picket was in perthnow on 16 Jan 2010 and in the book Badlands.

Thanks for clarifying which boot. Let's imagine he picked them up from the airport in her car, and had brought the cards along to show the girls or teach them the game or whatever (it is a fun game). They wound up in the boot with the luggage and got left behind. Or wound up in that David Jones bag. His card blew out when he took her out of the boot (my recall may be faulty here but I thought he put her body in the boot) or took the shovel out of the boot at the burial site. OR if he scoped the site in advance and stashed the spade and picket there, he could have used her car to do that (she was away, remember) so as not to leave his own tyre tracks in the area. Perhaps the spade and picket were put in a bag and the cards were in there too but were overlooked. Or perhaps the spade or picket lifted one card out of the boot and the accused didn't see it in the dark. And one card fell into/stayed in the boot and the second landed on the ground where the car was parked or even under the car. I guess there are lots of plausible scenarios which could explain how the cards got to where they did but I personally can't think of one that does not indicate guilt, can you?

I guess my biggest question for everyone here is, can the public speculating like this help the case at all?
Click to expand...

Two interesting points here DarkHorse.

Firstly with deleting data from a computer. Several issues here. When data is deleted from a computer it creates a space on the hard drive. if that space is not overwritten and the hard drive is not formatted then the information can be recovered. However once new data is stored into that some of that space it makes the original information difficult to read - after 5 years it would be almost impossible to read it.

Once an employee who worked in my team decided to delete some self incriminating emails that she had exchanged with another employee over a period of about 6 months. We managed to retrieve the pertinent information from our backup system and this was subsequently presented to the courts. as part of a litigation claim she was making against the organisation.

Since the data the police wanted was being requested by the courts I am surprised a court order was not made to have LR's hard drive "carbon copied" and sealed in a secure place until the judiciary system could completely hear the matter. This would have prevented LR from tampering with what may be critical evidence.

YOur next comment about the airport is an interesting one. I wonder when Corryn and the girls returned from their trip to Melbourne. Was it the same night as the dinner party? Did he collect them from the airport? If so, which car did he collect them in?
 
Gemini Girl said:
Good point Dodo

Perhaps it's a simple as the pain of accepting the guilt of a loved one being just too intense, so denial kicks in and normal reasoning thought processes are suspended, in order for life to be tolerable.

:twocents:

JMO MOO
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Yes, that does sound plausible GG. The old 'mushroom' syndrome. Personally I think I would keep an open mind if family members were accused of something, unless i was completely sure of their innocence that is. The way that OW supported GBC seemed very naive to me. Of course you want to support family in trouble but also there's something called accountability, which we are told to teach our children early on in life.
 
I've been trying to find it but with no luck, anyway i read on here today or on one of the links that the place card with Corryn's name on it was from a previous event.

Been catching up on a few days posts so it could be back a bit but I definitely
saw it,
 
Dodo said:
Yes, that does sound plausible GG. The old 'mushroom' syndrome. Personally I think I would keep an open mind if family members were accused of something, unless i was completely sure of their innocence that is. The way that OW supported GBC seemed very naive to me. Of course you want to support family in trouble but also there's something called accountability, which we are told to teach our children early on in life.
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Agree totally Dodo, and if a loved one of mine had that much evidence stacked against them, I'm not sure I could ever tune that out completely even if I wanted to and even if they were acquitted.

The doubt would always be with me I suspect.

Having said that I have (thankfully) never been in that situation so am speaking hypothetically.

:moo:

JMO MOO
 
Solaris said:
Hi YoureNicked

Thanks for the vote of confidence! :tyou:

I think, and I truly hope, that after working on this case for 5 years, the police have already generated and either supported or disproved this possibility about the place card.
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I can only hope you are correct Solaris, one way or the other!!

:jail::jail:

JMO MOO
 
Solaris said:
Hi Gemini Girl :seeya: (I know its the "see ya" emoticon but I couldn't find a "waves" one! :))

My impression was that the Prosecution's own witness (former major crime squad officer Marc Fogg) did not think that LR was running around hiding evidence. He was walking around accompanied by an elderly woman while talking to his lawyer on the phone. I understood that the recording equipment was removed two days before the murder (which occurred on 7 August 2007), so I'm not sure what the police were hoping to find on 20 September 2007.
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Sorry Solaris, names again - Marc Fogg

Oh dear, another one for the list

:floorlaugh:

I repeat, there is nothing remotely funny about the murder of Corryn Rayney

JMO MOO
 
Gemini Girl said:
Sorry Solaris, names again - Marc Fogg

Oh dear, another one for the list

:floorlaugh:

I repeat, there is nothing remotely funny about the murder of Corryn Rayney

JMO MOO
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Getting very 'Monty python' now with the names! Lol
 
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