Armchair Psych Profile and Treatment

[ciela]

Wrote this in another thread but feel it is most appropriate here:

The Phone Call:
This pre shooting call begs the question: Is someone insane if they are reaching out for help before committing atrocities or demonstrating a calculated part of his vast plan to showcase "insanity" as part of an intricate evil plan to kill?

Short answer - it depends.
Long answer - its complicated.
My answer - I need more information.

 

[February]

whether he is insane or not - JH is smart kid IMO
I dont know if he has really an insanity case but all i know is that this is beginning to look like a planned act because of rage.

Less Liabilities for the school , for fenton and easier for prosecution if he is found SANE and responsible for this.

If he's found insane, high liabilities will mount on the school, Fenton's medical license and the prosecution will not be able to hold him liable on all these crimes.

For victims, IMO, they deserve all justice but the money is trailing if he'll be found insane.

For us, this will remain a mind boggling case At least eventhough this is on Gag Order, we are getting informations from the court itself lol...

Happy weekend!

 

[DeadCat]

whether he is insane or not - JH is smart kid IMO
I dont know if he has really an insanity case but all i know is that this is beginning to look like a planned act because of rage.

Does "planned" mean sane/rational? Couldn't someone be seriously delusional and plan for months, or are delusions not sustainable for that length of time?

 

[shadowraiths]

The defense is claiming that the doctor-patient relationship exists btwn Holmes and Fenton, thereby preventing the prosecution from entering the notebook into evidence. To support their claim, they indicate Holmes tried to contact Fenton 9 minutes before he proceeded to the theater that ended in the massacre. ( link ):

Brady also hit upon the theme during an exchange with Fenton in which Brady seemed to hint that Holmes had called a CU hospital switchboard number just minutes before the shooting began. It would have been possible to reach Fenton after-hours using that number.

"Do you know whether James Holmes called that number 9 minutes before the shooting started?" Brady asked.

"I don't know," Fenton said.​

Notably, Fenton testified that their doctor-patient relationship ended on June 11, 2012. ( link )

Fenton's testimony looms large in the debate. On Thursday, Fenton confirmed that she had treated Holmes at least once, on June 11. The next day, prosecutor Karen Pearson said, Holmes' key-card access to CU buildings was cut off. The day after that, Pearson said, Holmes began to withdraw

[...]

Crucially, Fenton testified that her doctor-patient relationship with Holmes ended June 11 — playing into the prosecution's argument that Holmes was not Fenton's patient when he mailed the notebook.​

In light of the above, a couple of things stand out. For starters, what exactly, is in the notebook that would be so damaging to the defense's case? Secondly, if the doctor-patient relationship did, in fact, end on June 11th, it seems to me that Holmes, or even his parents, could have grounds for civil litigation regarding psychiatric abandonment. ( link )

 

[ciela]

The defense is claiming that the doctor-patient relationship exists btwn Holmes and Fenton, thereby preventing the prosecution from entering the notebook into evidence. To support their claim, they indicate Holmes tried to contact Fenton 9 minutes before he proceeded to the theater that ended in the massacre. ( link ):

Brady also hit upon the theme during an exchange with Fenton in which Brady seemed to hint that Holmes had called a CU hospital switchboard number just minutes before the shooting began. It would have been possible to reach Fenton after-hours using that number.

"Do you know whether James Holmes called that number 9 minutes before the shooting started?" Brady asked.

"I don't know," Fenton said.​

Notably, Fenton testified that their doctor-patient relationship ended on June 11, 2012. ( link )

Fenton's testimony looms large in the debate. On Thursday, Fenton confirmed that she had treated Holmes at least once, on June 11. The next day, prosecutor Karen Pearson said, Holmes' key-card access to CU buildings was cut off. The day after that, Pearson said, Holmes began to withdraw

[...]

Crucially, Fenton testified that her doctor-patient relationship with Holmes ended June 11 — playing into the prosecution's argument that Holmes was not Fenton's patient when he mailed the notebook.​

In light of the above, a couple of things stand out. For starters, what exactly, is in the notebook that would be so damaging to the defense's case? Secondly, if the doctor-patient relationship did, in fact, end on June 11th, it seems to me that Holmes, or even his parents, could have grounds for civil litigation regarding psychiatric abandonment. ( link )

All good points SW and I would ask how she could conclude that their relationship ended when he left her office -if- she were concerned about his behavior or statements that she called in the Beta team and notified authorities? There again, duty to warn/protect, ethical standards etc. Why on earth did she fail to invoke the mandatory MI hold? I am baffled but perhaps there is more that she cannot corroborate at this time.

 

[February]

Does "planned" mean sane/rational? Couldn't someone be seriously delusional and plan for months, or are delusions not sustainable for that length of time?

if he is suffering from that dyphoric mania, based on what i read about it, he could be out of this world but his mind could still be functioning and could have a hard time knowing or acknowledging that what he's doing is wrong. IMO..i could be wrong but that is how i interpreted this type of bipolar disease .....dyphoric can also last for a long time then all of a sudden he'll go back again from his reality and stay calm.

there are so many people who are suffering from this have personal blogs on the net. If JH has it too, dont know, he possibly know or studied this disease too . i posted one blog of a woman suffering from it on another thread..

 

[February]

All good points SW and I would ask how she could conclude that their relationship ended when he left her office -if- she were concerned about his behavior or statements that she called in the Beta team and notified authorities? There again, duty to warn/protect, ethical standards etc. Why on earth did she fail to invoke the mandatory MI hold? I am baffled but perhaps there is more that she cannot corroborate at this time.

that is basically where i stand confuse too...how could their relationship as doctor and patient ended when she was so concerned about JH. AM sure she found him disturbed for them to do even a background check , wonder if she met him after JH treatened another professor

 

[HastingsChi]

that is basically where i stand confuse too...how could their relationship as doctor and patient ended when she was so concerned about JH. AM sure she found him disturbed for them to do even a background check , wonder if she met him after JH treatened another professor

Bottom line: As a psychiatrist if in her professional opinion Holmes was a danger to himself or others she would be obligated by the Hippocratic Oath to, in the least, have him held on a 72 hour psych evaluation.

If she failed to take action on a patient who she felt was a danger to himself or others then she committed malpractice and is liable.

I would think that if she believed he was a threat to himself or others and then he did something erratic like doinig out of school, she would have gone to greater lengths to intervene instead of choosing to wipe her hands clean of him...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2

 

[February]

Bottom line: As a psychiatrist if in her professional opinion Holmes was a danger to himself or others she would be obligated by the Hippocratic Oath to, in the least, have him held on a 72 hour psych evaluation.

If she failed to take action on a patient who she felt was a danger to himself or others then she committed malpractice and is liable.

I would think that if she believed he was a threat to himself or others and then he did something erratic like doinig out of school, she would have gone to greater lengths to intervene instead of choosing to wipe her hands clean of him...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2

ita
do you think the school ended their relationship or fenton herself did it?

 

[ciela]

ita
do you think the school ended their relationship or fenton herself did it?

The doctor patient relationship is not governed by university of colorado period. This committment transcends the students enrollment in the university. The only thing that could influence the relationship is the law. I refer to Tarasoff I and II regarding duty to warn/protect. Even if JH told the psychiatrist to go to blazes (thus firing her and ending the therapeutic relationship), she was duty bound to act upon her concerns if she thought he was unstable/psychotic/enraged and likely to act upon threats/delusions. As a therapist you cannot end the committment without referring your patient to another therapist or calling the police when "danger" is present. Perhaps, she did refer him, we may never know.

 

[HastingsChi]

The doctor patient relationship is not governed by university of colorado period. This committment transcends the students enrollment in the university. The only thing that could influence the relationship is the law. I refer to Tarasoff I and II regarding duty to warn/protect. Even if JH told the psychiatrist to go to blazes (thus firing her and ending the therapeutic relationship), she was duty bound to act upon her concerns if she thought he was unstable/psychotic/enraged and likely to act upon threats/delusions. As a therapist you cannot end the committment without referring your patient to another therapist or calling the police when "danger" is present. Perhaps, she did refer him, we may never know.

Thank you for that thorough and informative post ciela.

After reading February's post I looked into if the Hippocratic Oath applied to psychiatrists and was glad to learn it does; meaning if the information that has been presented is true, Fenton must be doing with so much grief and regret, probably blaming herself for this horrible atrocity. On top of that, she may lose her livelihood and suffer deep financial losses.

 

[ciela]

Thank you for that thorough and informative post ciela.

After reading February's post I looked into if the Hippocratic Oath applied to psychiatrists and was glad to learn it does; meaning if the information that has been presented is true, Fenton must be doing with so much grief and regret, probably blaming herself for this horrible atrocity. On top of that, she may lose her livelihood and suffer deep financial losses.

Due to the gag order we may never know that she did/may have referred James Holmes to an outside psychiatrist. That information would be priviledged. This whole case imo is bizarre on the surface but if we knew all, it might be as obvious as our noses on our faces. As I said earlier elsewhere: Its complicated, we dont have the information to assess or come to a conclusion.

 

[DeadCat]

Not sure whether it was this thread or the Theater Shooting one where we were discussing "why a theater? why the Batman movie?" -- But this article has interesting info about surrounding theaters. (Let's try not to start up the political debate here on guns, though). The author argues JH picked Cinemark theater because it banned guns. (I think he picked it because that's the one he was most familiar with.)

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/09/10/did-colorado-shooter-single-out-cinemark-theater/

According to mapquest.com and movies.com, there were seven movie theaters showing "The Dark Knight Rises" on July 20th within 20 minutes of the killer’s apartment at 1690 Paris St, Aurora, Colorado. At 4 miles and an 8-minute car ride, the Cinemark’s Century Theater wasn't the closest. Another theater was only 1.2 miles (3 minutes) away.

There was also a theater just slightly further away, 10 minutes. It is the "home of Colorado's largest auditorium," according to their movie hotline greeting message. The potentially huge audience ought to have been attractive to someone trying to kill as many people as possible. Four other theaters were 18 minutes, two at 19 minutes, and 20 minutes away.

Can anyone provide a link to the theater 1.2 miles away? I don't see one (which would have been showing Batman) this close.

 

[February]

New look for JH

 

[DeadCat]

Can anyone provide a link to the theater 1.2 miles away?

Sorry to self-quote, but a few more googles later and I'm annoyed with the previous article. I think the 1.2 mile theater from Paris is Cinema Latina (Number 1 below). They show movies dubbed or subtitled in Spanish. The theater he chose is Number 4 below. Number 3 is Cinema Grill, a theater/dining experience.

 

[February]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/27/u...ews-about-james-holmes.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2

You can see from this link stories on JH before the crime.

Some interesting info 0n that link

1. In May, he showed another student a Glock semiautomatic pistol, saying he had bought it “for protection.”

2. “What struck me was that he was kind of nonchalant,” the woman recalled. “He just seemed too cool to be there. He kicked back in his chair and seemed very relaxed in a very stressful situation.”

3. Other students said Mr. Holmes did his rotations in the laboratories of Achim Klug, who studies the auditory system; Mark Dell’Acqua, who does basic research on synaptic signaling; and Dr. Curt Freed, whose work focuses on messenger chemicals in the brain and stem cell transplants in patients with Parkinson’s disease.

4. In the spring, just months before the shooting, Mr. Holmes turned in a midterm essay that a professor said was “spectacular,” written almost at the level of a professional in the field.

5. On several occasions, he was spotted in the company of two other students, one male, one female. Did he date? No one seemed sure. Mostly, he was alone.

6. On May 17, he gave his final laboratory presentation on dopamine precursors. The talks typically ran 15 minutes or so, but this time, Mr. Holmes spoke for only half that time. And while in earlier presentations he had made an attempt to entertain, this time he spoke flatly, as if he wanted only to be done with it.

7. “Jimmy James from neuroscience,” he replied.

8. Mr. Holmes took his oral exam on June 7. The graduate student sent him a message the next day, asking how it had gone. Not well, he replied, “and I am going to quit.” “Are you kidding me?” she asked. “No, I am just being James,” he said

9. A few weeks later, another student recalled, Cammie Kennedy, the neuroscience program administrator, accompanied the students to Cedar Creek Pub on campus to celebrate the completion of the first year. All the students except Mr. Holmes attended. As the group drank beers and waxed nostalgic, Ms. Kennedy suddenly grew serious. “I want to let you guys know that James has quit the program,” a student remembered her saying. “He wrote us an e-mail. He didn’t say why. That’s all I can really say.”

10. In early July, the woman who conducted the text exchange with Mr. Holmes sent him a message to ask if he had left town yet. No, he wrote back, he still had two months remaining on his lease.

11. At a meeting held at Dr. Ribera’s house, a student said, Barry Shur, the dean of the graduate school, said Mr. Holmes had been seeing a psychiatrist.

 

[danzn16]

New look for JH

Not sure what to make of this

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

 

[rollinginit]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/27/u...ews-about-james-holmes.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2

You can see from this link stories on JH before the crime.

Some interesting info 0n that link

1. In May, he showed another student a Glock semiautomatic pistol, saying he had bought it “for protection.”

2. “What struck me was that he was kind of nonchalant,” the woman recalled. “He just seemed too cool to be there. He kicked back in his chair and seemed very relaxed in a very stressful situation.”

3. Other students said Mr. Holmes did his rotations in the laboratories of Achim Klug, who studies the auditory system; Mark Dell’Acqua, who does basic research on synaptic signaling; and Dr. Curt Freed, whose work focuses on messenger chemicals in the brain and stem cell transplants in patients with Parkinson’s disease.

4. In the spring, just months before the shooting, Mr. Holmes turned in a midterm essay that a professor said was “spectacular,” written almost at the level of a professional in the field.

5. On several occasions, he was spotted in the company of two other students, one male, one female. Did he date? No one seemed sure. Mostly, he was alone.

6. On May 17, he gave his final laboratory presentation on dopamine precursors. The talks typically ran 15 minutes or so, but this time, Mr. Holmes spoke for only half that time. And while in earlier presentations he had made an attempt to entertain, this time he spoke flatly, as if he wanted only to be done with it.

7. “Jimmy James from neuroscience,” he replied.

8. Mr. Holmes took his oral exam on June 7. The graduate student sent him a message the next day, asking how it had gone. Not well, he replied, “and I am going to quit.” “Are you kidding me?” she asked. “No, I am just being James,” he said

9. A few weeks later, another student recalled, Cammie Kennedy, the neuroscience program administrator, accompanied the students to Cedar Creek Pub on campus to celebrate the completion of the first year. All the students except Mr. Holmes attended. As the group drank beers and waxed nostalgic, Ms. Kennedy suddenly grew serious. “I want to let you guys know that James has quit the program,” a student remembered her saying. “He wrote us an e-mail. He didn’t say why. That’s all I can really say.”

10. In early July, the woman who conducted the text exchange with Mr. Holmes sent him a message to ask if he had left town yet. No, he wrote back, he still had two months remaining on his lease.

11. At a meeting held at Dr. Ribera’s house, a student said, Barry Shur, the dean of the graduate school, said Mr. Holmes had been seeing a psychiatrist.

February, I hope it's okay, but I copied this post to the timeline.
Great find

 

[~n/t~]

Has it ever been confirmed if he was adopted or not?

 

[KDOGG]

Has it ever been confirmed if he was adopted or not?

think i heard that wasnt true, but i could be wrong.