CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #3

[Woe.be.gone]

Snip/bold by me

I don't think he actually came here just to help the dad at his office. I think he was returning here and then came to visit them and that's what they did that day. It sounded like he had some sort of working relationship with Morgan's dad as when she came home he left to go do more work with the dad. I'm not sure if he is originally from Australia or if he was just visiting there and returning home, but either way, he had basically just returned.

Sure that makes sense that he didn't literally fly to the US just to see Morgan. Still, what emotions did seeing him bring up in her and/or visa versa.
He leaves the house with Morgan's father and Morgan sits on the floor doing her hair and putting on makeup and Toni mentions her behavior seemed odd.

Love, loosing love, being in love when someone isn't with you, can deeply cut young people and disturb them to a great degree. The fact that Toni mentions the old boyfriend having been at the house that same day and then witnessing Morgan's odd behavior afterward before she went out for the evening causes me to wonder if she hadn't connected with her daughter's deepest feelings. Or maybe it was the old boyfriend who felt scorned. I'm curious either way.

 

[Confusion]

I think she means she wants it taken higher than the ones already involved, investigated by someone not involved with the original people who investigated and made the decisions.

It sounded to me like she wants the investigators investigated, along with the death. MOO

 

[BeginnersLuck]

ok, so 1 in 6 leave a note? I won't dispute that from what I have seen. I'm still more concerned about whether the parents are chasing a dead horse or they have a case to follow. The reasons why I am concerned are not only for the parents welfare but also the others that have been accused.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

night guys

Me too. Only good dreams for all!

 

[Confusion]

Okay, I'm confused. This is from M's blog:

"A lot of you are pulling for the County to re-open this investigation, and I appreciate that. But I don’t agree. For Steve and I the relationship with the Sheriff’s department turned very adversarial when we had other experts review Morgan’s manner of death, that Dr. Kurtzman said was natural causes, and then had the gall to share the opinions of other experts with them, to suggest they were mistaken perhaps. It was the old, don’t confuse us with facts, our minds are already made up. And the Coroner Trey Holt is another story, he has been out of touch since day one. I was threatened that Morgan’s manner of death would be changed to suicide if I did not back off of trying to have her death changed to a homicide. And yes, I reported this verbal threat to the Sheriff’s department, just like I reported her missing jewelry."

Here's the link to the entry: http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?m=20120910

In reading this, am I correct that Dr. Dobersen was actually the third(!) to review this case? Was there a problem with Trey Holt, then with Dr. Kurtzman, and then suddenly no problem with Dr. Dobersen?
I didn't find any information on whether or not Trey Holt has any medical qualifications, which apparently, depending on the county, is not a necessity. In which case I could definitely see questioning COD in a mysterious death if the first coroner has no medical degrees. However, by the statement quoted above, I'm not clear on who "threatened" to change the COD to suicide. Logic would have that the county coroner would be consulted first, which would be Trey Holt initiating the COD as natural causes; if questioned or just because of circumstances they bring in an ME. She says Dr. Kurtzman made the alleged threat, but then goes on about Trey Holt and the threat again. Now that, I think, is confusing.

BBM

Dr. Kurtzman is the ME, Trey Holt is the County Coroner and Dr. Dobersen is the second opinion. I don't believe TH is even a doctor, or she would probably call him Dr. Holt. MOO

 

[MelissaDawn]

Actually, he's an Anatomic Pathologist, even if he did study some forensics.
http://www.ucomparehealthcare.com/drs/robert_kurtzman/

Dr.Doberson is an actual Forensic Pathologist.
http://www.michaeljdobersen.org/education.html



Anatomical pathology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Actually, the link I provided showed that Dr. Kurtzman did a residency and a fellowship in forensic pathology, he too is board certified for Anatomic Pathology, Laboratory Medicine, and Forensic Pathology.

 

[txsvicki]

If Morgan hadn't taken ami. For a good while then someone slipped her a large dose the day before her death she would know that she'd been drugged. She looked very unwell in the pic after the hair style and makeup. More than just not sleeping well. She almost looked as if she'd been given something that day.

 

[Confusion]

Actually, the link I provided showed that Dr. Kurtzman did a residency and a fellowship in forensic pathology, he too is board certified for Anatomic Pathology, Laboratory Medicine, and Forensic Pathology.

Sorry, I guess it might be time for me to give in and let them remove my cataracts, or maybe get some sleep. Maybe an even better idea would be to just take a break from here and deal with the deaths in my own family before trying to figure out someone else's. Sorry for the confusion, but it's what I do best.

 

[MelissaDawn]

Sorry, I guess it might be time for me to give in and let them remove my cataracts, or maybe get some sleep. Maybe an even better idea would be to just take a break from here and deal with the deaths in my own family before trying to figure out someone else's. Sorry for the confusion, but it's what I do best.

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be snarky or anything. I was just trying to point out that we basically have a disagreement on COD by 2 equally qualified professionals.

 

[shellbee]

:twocents: To me the fact that Morgan saw an old boyfriend and a new love interest the day before she died is a huge red flag. Whether her death was murder, suicide, or accidental, the presence of at least one of these guys is significant. JMHO of course.

 

[hambirg]

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be snarky or anything. I was just trying to point out that we basically have a disagreement on COD by 2 equally qualified professionals.

But we don't really. . .they both say she died of amitriptyline intoxication.

But the ME originally ruled COD to be natural causes. Morgan's death was caused by amytriptyline intoxication. He was wrong. He made a mistake. Now he is saying it was suicide, but I have to wonder if he wouldn't have ruled undetermined if he had just waited for the toxicology report. I suspect he is hard pressed now to say it might have been a homicide, since his mistake prevented a proper investigation.

The second opinion says COD should have been undetermined. . .basically suicide or homicide by amitriptyline intoxication. Morgan's death should have been investigated to determine which it was.

 

[armcha1r_detect1ve]

Her obituary states the following:

Morgan Jennifer Ingram passed away suddenly at her home in Carbondale on Friday, Dec. 2, 2011. She was 20 years old.

Her life in the mountains and snow were an inspiration to her; she had been waiting for it to snow, and her snow came that night.

I thought the mom said it had not snowed and there were no prints. Maybe it just didn't snow at her house?

Also, this recent article states the following:

Ingram, a graduate of Aspen High School, was found dead on Dec. 2, 2011, in her bed at her family's home in the Aspen Equestrian Estates subdivision east of Carbondale. There were no signs of assault.

Her death initially was attributed to natural causes, according to an autopsy report dated Dec. 19 by Dr. Robert Kurtzman, of Grand Junction, a forensic pathologist and former coroner for Mesa County. The Mesa County coroner routinely handles autopsies for Garfield County.

Specifically, Kurtzman's report cited “marked pulmonary edema,” or fluid buildup in the lungs, and “acute intermittent porphyria,” a metabolic disorder that causes severe stomach pains.

On July 28 however, Kurtzman's office issued a revised postmortem report that cites the cause of death as suicide resulting from a prescription-drug overdose.

There is no evidence of a crime. Take the stalking out of it. This is an accidental or purposeful overdose. No struggle, no assault.

We cannot continue to sleuth based on a BIASED blog that CANNOT BE VERIFIED.

 

[hambirg]

Her obituary states the following:



I thought the mom said it had not snowed and there were no prints. Maybe it just didn't snow at her house?

Also, this recent article states the following:



There is no evidence of a crime. Take the stalking out of it. This is an accidental or purposeful overdose. No struggle, no assault.

We cannot continue to sleuth based on a BIASED blog that CANNOT BE VERIFIED.

BBM

Sorry, that statement rubs me the wrong way. It seems to imply that if there isn't some outward signs of a struggle, than that means that the person must not have been assaulted. I think that's a dangerous assumption.

I'd like to know where they get the no signs of assault, since they never even did a rape kit. They don't know if she was assaulted. There wouldn't have to be any outwardly signs if she was drugged. It's the reason assailants use things like roofies. Just because there were no signs of a struggle doesn't mean she wasn't assaulted and they don't know if she was. . .because they never bothered to check!!! :banghead:

 

[Herding Cats]

And you know how that the authorities didn't properly investigate this case? How do you know that this isn't a grieving mother that won't let go when everyone has tried to comfort her but she won't except it?

BBM...

No rape kit. No gathering sheets and blankets for evidence testing. Switching a MOD from one way (natural) to a second way (suicide) long after tox reports should have been in and evaluated. Fingernail polish not removed during autopsy to check for injection marks.

And so on.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Confusion]

Her obituary states the following:



I thought the mom said it had not snowed and there were no prints. Maybe it just didn't snow at her house?
She died early that morning; it snowed that night. The way it's worded, it didn't snow until she was already dead
Also, this recent article states the following:



There is no evidence of a crime. Take the stalking out of it. This is an accidental or purposeful overdose. No struggle, no assault.

We cannot continue to sleuth based on a BIASED blog that CANNOT BE VERIFIED. You don't have to sleuth anything if you don't want to, but that doesn't mean others can't try to figure out what happened.

Answers in bold

 

[armcha1r_detect1ve]

Answers in bold

It's already been determined by more than one medical examiner what has happened.

Are we just choosing to ignore the facts?

 

[armcha1r_detect1ve]

No rape kit. No gathering sheets and blankets for evidence testing.

Were there signs that she had been raped?

There were no signs of assault.

Do they do a rape kit on every female that is found dead in her bed if there are no signs of assault?

 

[hambirg]

It's already been determined by more than one medical examiner what has happened.

Are we just choosing to ignore the facts?

The facts are that she died from Amitriptyline intoxication.

The facts are the ME ruled she died of natural causes.

The facts are he got it wrong.

How that Amitrptyline entered her system was never properly investigated because the ME prematurely ruled COD as natural causes.

 

[Herding Cats]

Were there signs that she had been raped?

There were no signs of assault.

Do they do a rape kit on every female that is found dead in her bed if there are no signs of assault?

If LE is treating it as a homicide, which there are reports that they did, yes. It is SOP to do a rape kit in cases like this. That wasn't done.

Many things weren't done.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[hambirg]

Were there signs that she had been raped?

There were no signs of assault.

Do they do a rape kit on every female that is found dead in her bed if there are no signs of assault?

For a 20yr old that is a victim in an ongoing felony stalking case. . .yeah, they should.

Again, how can we say there were no signs of assault if they didn't do a rape kit? Not to be crude, but she could have been full of signs of assault.