CO - Jessica Ridgeway, 10, Westminster, 5 Oct 2012 - #21

[EmilyB]

Dumb questions but it's this a tri-level house. I just remember a friend living in the suburbs and every few houses would be like this. You would walk in and be in the foyer but there was a stair case leading down and one leading up. The downstairs was a furnished basement that was huge and the upstairs had the kitchen, living room and 2 bedrooms / 1 bath. I wouldn't know where the crawlspace would in a house like that though.

It reminds me of those houses though (Brady bunch homes as we called them).

I posted about this last night but I think it got lost....

I lived in a tri-level (split level) here in CO. On the level where you walk in the front door, underneath that level (specifically the kitchen and formal living room), was the "crawlspace" accessible by a small square door from the lower family room level with a garage access. I am 5ft and had to bend down to get in there but could walk around while hunched over. There was dirt in there.

In AS's house, if there was a partial basement, no doubt there was access from the basement and part of it was finished and the other part was considered "crawlspace". It was probably the same type of crawlspace where I lived. My point is, that when you think crawl space, you think cramped area. But in a split level, it could have been bigger and might have even had a light in there if it housed the water heater/furnace, etc.

 

[RoseTree]

Joran van der Sloot: two murders of young women, father: prosecutor, mother: art teacher, privileged, happy home, good education, bright future, two other children in the family pursuing professional careers.

I would likewise be very interested in links to research that documents a direct link between an unfortunate childhood and serial murderer behavior. It simply isn't there. For decades, researchers have attempted to identify markers that can predict sociopathic, or serial murderer behavior. Everything from phrenology to brain size and, most recently, DNA, have been explored. To date, there is no correlation between physical characteristics, or environmental influences, and sociopathy, or serial murderers.

The above is based on studies in various fields, and I don't have time to search for related links.

Human, that was me. And yes, that happens all the time in my experience. People seem to want to bolster their own image and they haven't embraced the victim mentality, or they want to make their own parents sound good, or they are just in denial.

In my personal experience, two kids from the same family can largely differ on the kind of childhood they think they had

 

[DeAnn]

Here's my odd question about the case....

I watched Days of Our Lives for years until Marlena's coffin spun off into outer space and show jumped the shark for me.

Back in the 90s, Austin Reed was one of the hunks on the show. Any chance Sigg is named for the soap character?

 

[DylansMom34]

I posted about this last night but I think it got lost....

I lived in a tri-level (split level) here in CO. On the level where you walk in the front door, underneath that level (specifically the kitchen and formal living room), was the "crawlspace" accessible by a small square door from the lower family room level with a garage access. I am 5ft and had to bend down to get in there but could walk around while hunched over. There was dirt in there.

In AS's house, if there was a partial basement, no doubt there was access from the basement and part of it was finished and the other part was considered "crawlspace". It was probably the same type of crawlspace where I lived. My point is, that when you think crawl space, you think cramped area. But in a split level, it could have been bigger and might have even had a light in there if it housed the water heater/furnace, etc.

My father in law's house which is also in Colorado looks similar to the suspect's home. Access to my FIL's crawl space is through a small door in the basement, and like the crawl space Emily described, I can nearly stand up in the crawl space and I'm a little over 5'2. My FIL's house has a cement floor but I have also seen them with dirt floors.

 

[sfbaynancydrew]

Popping in for the first time in 24 hours or so. I thought the hogtying was strictly rumor and thus shouldn't be discussed?!

An MSM link was provided from...Denver4 I believe?

 

[otto]

Popping in for the first time in 24 hours or so. I thought the hogtying was strictly rumor and thus shouldn't be discussed?!

It was mentioned on the live coverage prior to the official announcement of the suspect's name.

 

[Foxfire]

I've wondered a few times if his mom turned him in because she was scared of him. I can't imagine suspecting my child of murder and have them living in my house with me. Next time you tell them to do the dishes are they gonna find your body under the house, too?

http://www.biography.com/people/edmund-kemper-403254?page=2

Edmund Kemper biography

Synopsis

Born on December 18, 1948, in Burbank, California, Edmund Kemper, at age 15, killed both his grandparents to "see what it felt like." Upon release, he drifted, picking up and releasing female hitchhikers. But he soon stopped letting them go, killing six college-age women in the Santa Cruz, California, area in the 1970s. In 1973 he killed his mother and her friend and turned himself in.

 

[AstroKitty]

I disagree.
It would be pretty easy to hogtie a person in a vehicle. Especially a victim that has been surprised and is smaller and weaker than the attacker. Even if the perp did not use a chemical and just used a rag over the victims face would incapacitate them. To hogtie somebody takes seconds. Zip ties are readily available and take seconds.

There have been lot of kids and adults grabbed off the streets in broad daylight. Look at Victoria Stafford. She was grabbed after school and shoved into the back of a car. She wasn't hogtied and the murderers did not use chemicals.

If somebody grabbed me from behind and even just put their hand over my mouth I would't be able to breathe because of the panic.

I agree about the zip ties. I guess my brain goes directing to shibari, which is what I taught in my workshops. While someone could be zip tied, it doesn't seem to make sense with the lay out of the street, the time of day or anything. Unless she was unable to scream. But he seems so wreckless and fumbles with past abductions that I don't know..Something is just off. But yes, zip ties would absolutely speed up the process because no knots are involved.

 

[StJohn]

Thought I read in some early posts that police were not taking DNA from minors - did a google search & found this article:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ctims-an-oversight/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

This article indicates it is not permissible for police to take the DNA of a minor without the parent's permission. So would Sigg's mother have to be present & give her consent? I have read nothing indicating that police were routinely taking DNA from all household members, just males who were not minors. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong I guess where I am going with this is, how did police already have his DNA if they weren't already zeroing in on him?

 

[EmilyB]

? Colorado Springs is not "the area" when one is talking about Westminster/Arvada or even "north/northwest Denver 'burbs." Pueblo is not "the area." And the rest of the attempts are unsolved and likely by two or three different people who the police haven't caught.

Whether the truth comes out before or after a trial is not necessarily connected to public safety. I'm also not sure what benefit there would be to having the prosecution disclose everything now. As a community, we're already horrified. It's true that the rumors flying--many of which contradict each other!!--aren't helping, but if the suspect is caught and if they have every reason to believe he acted alone, it's hardly a public safety issue.


There hasn't been a trial yet, much less a conviction and sentence. The lightest sentence he could receive would put him in for 40 years. Perhaps someone has seen something to indicate that he would receive a light sentence? I haven't and think it's far too early to predict his sentence. The public defenders are just doing their job, and sure, it may be offensive to some in a case that seems cut and dried, but a good defense is one of our Constitutional rights as a U.S. citizen and I'm not willing to toss out a right that applies to this suspect just as much as it does to me.


Maybe. There were only 1000 tips given to LE. Hers happened to be right. And I think our LE did a fabulous job. Even if they wouldn't have picked him up that night because he confessed, I'm sure they would have caught him eventually. More importantly, their hard work is exactly why they have a ton of evidence that will put him away for long beyond the 40 years people are so worried about.

I'm beginning to realize it's time for me to distance myself from most of the media coverage. It's interesting how many of the stories have contradictory details: he was a loner, someone saw him with friends when running with her dog and thought he was terrifying, lab partners thought he was perfectly normal and not weird, others claim he was completely bizarre, the obligatory bullying issue has to be brought up whether or not there's any connection, and then there's more coverage of friends and neighbors who never suspected anything and random people who barely knew him who could just tell that he was "off." Sure.

I think I'm going to sit patiently and wait for the truth from police records and such to come out during the trial before believing people who want to be on TV or other unverified rumors. If there are easy answers here, I don't see it. It's hard to believe there are easy answers about 17-year-olds who kill other kids like this, or that he could be neatly linked to every abduction attempt in the area (Westy-Arvada maybe Thornton area) like in a TV crime movie.

I think he was bullied in HS and went to Warren Tech where he fit in more. He was studying something he liked (Forensic Science) and felt he fit in and was probably enthusiastic about it. He was probably more outgoing there because he felt comfortable. I have a feeling this kid was quiet and was a little weird to his neighbors and the kids at his HS. From what I understand, Warren Tech was for kids who weren't doing so well in mainstream HS. These are the kids who just didn't fit in and maybe AS fit in there.

That's where I think conflicting personality reports come from. Depends on the environment he was in.

 

[smh]

I posted about this last night but I think it got lost....

I lived in a tri-level (split level) here in CO. On the level where you walk in the front door, underneath that level (specifically the kitchen and formal living room), was the "crawlspace" accessible by a small square door from the lower family room level with a garage access. I am 5ft and had to bend down to get in there but could walk around while hunched over. There was dirt in there.

In AS's house, if there was a partial basement, no doubt there was access from the basement and part of it was finished and the other part was considered "crawlspace". It was probably the same type of crawlspace where I lived. My point is, that when you think crawl space, you think cramped area. But in a split level, it could have been bigger and might have even had a light in there if it housed the water heater/furnace, etc.

Yes, exactly! You are much better at describing than me :blushing:

 

[AstroKitty]

Here's my odd question about the case....

I watched Days of Our Lives for years until Marlena's coffin spun off into outer space and show jumped the shark for me.

Back in the 90s, Austin Reed was one of the hunks on the show. Any chance Sigg is named for the soap character?

YES on general hospital.

 

[RANCH]

Popping in for the first time in 24 hours or so. I thought the hogtying was strictly rumor and thus shouldn't be discussed?!

It's one of those "sources said" pieces of information.

The source says Sigg told police he drove by Jessica Ridgeway on the morning of October 5, turned his car around and grabbed her. He brought her into the car where he hog-tied her and then he strangled her to death.

So it depends on whether the source is correct or not.

http://kdvr.com/2012/10/24/exclusive-details-about-arrest-kidnapping-of-jessica-ridgeway-revealed/

 

[stillwatersc]

Could you please give any examples of people who had good childhoods that are serial killers?

There was a poster who said she was a professional that worked with people who said they had wonderful childhoods, but she had the records of the abuse reports etc.

That is my experience as well. People thinking they had good childhoods, but either they are in denial, or they have no clue what a loving childhood is

This is not a fair question. Even if this poster does mounds of research and comes up with some names, you are already disqualifying the results. There is also the possibility that these "abused" 's make up the abuse stories to try to get an easier sentence or sympathy. There are no excuses. I have no sympathy for a serial killer.

 

[foxbluff]

Awesome new spins to this! I would have never thought about the cross belonging to someone else. TY!

Thank you sooo much, AstroKitty !! Your response has made my day !!

If I'm reading your post correctly, however, you may have given me a wee bit more credit than I deserved. (darn it...) I had not meant to imply that the cross w/perp's DNA had come from the 22 y.o. jogger's neck during struggle w/attacker. (Now that would really be something, wouldn't it?!?)

My thoughts were that the cross was worn by the perp at the time of the attack on the jogger and that it fell from his neck during her struggle w/him.

And, again, this is pure speculation on my part: I think AS's mother saw the picture of the cross and knew that her "problem son" stopped wearing such a cross earlier in the year. Any nagging doubts that she had could no longer be explained away. I picture her then "backing AS into a corner" and forcing him say the last words she ever wanted to hear...

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

Few things that I wanted to comment on as I catch up in this horrifying story...

We lived in a house almost identical to his growing up back east. If you walked in the front door, there was the ground level that had a hallway leading to a room behind the garage- what we called the family room. There was a half set of stairs next to the front door and another set from the family room that took you up to the 'mid level' which consisted of the kitchen in the back and the living room. From the living room, basically the middle of the house, was another half set that led to three bedrooms above the garage/family room. In the hallway, under that half set in the middle of the house were the cellar stairs that led to a basement under the kitchen/living room area. It was a regular basement but it only went under half the house. EXCEPT there was a crawlspace area under the garage/family room. I remember we used to store Christmas decorations and stuff there and it's purpose really is to keep things from the moisture that can happen on the ground. I wonder if his bedroom was in a furnished room in the basement and he had easy access to the crawl space.

Second point regarding how he got her and no one noticed. I imagine he was running on pure adrenaline and knocked her out quick. But get a load of the tint on those windows???? I don't think anyone could see anything and I wonder if they were even recently tinted. In ca- those windows are not street legal. Not sure about CO.

Lastly, I'm kind of tired if hearing about the bad childhoods these killers had. I have a psychology degree and I get it. But everyone has had hardships in their lives, poverty, loss of family, criminals in family, disease, etc. People have the choice to make something of their lives and overcome things or to use it as an excuse. I acknowledge people can be bred into horrible behavior- but this kid lived in one house his whole life, had a mother that obviously struggled, he had opportunity. People have far far worse childhoods and make something of themselves. Sick to death of the excuses.

 

[AstroKitty]

Lastly, I'm kind of tired if hearing about the bad childhoods these killers had. I have a psychology degree and I get it. But everyone has had hardships in their lives, poverty, loss of family, criminals in family, disease, etc. People have the choice to make something of their lives and overcome things or to use it as an excuse. I acknowledge people can be bred into horrible behavior- but this kid lived in one house his whole life, had a mother that obviously struggled, he had opportunity. People have far far worse childhoods and make something of themselves. Sick to death of the excuses.

Agreed. TY.

 

[Desdemona]

It would be rather impossible to hogtie a person in a car on a street without being seen. Given of course that he did a real hogtie. I'm pretty well versed in BDSM and as soon as I read it I went "liar".
I do not think he soaked that rag with any knock out chemicals. I think he just soaked it in chemicals. I believe he was being manic in the abduction attempts (meaning, he probably has little impulse control) and it's not as well thought out as we would think it is. But he would never admit to that, because in doing so it would be admitting he didn't have full control.
I think the rag and the tying up are all fetishes of his but he's 17 and doesn't know how to exact them.
<snipped>

[Respectfully snipped for space and BBM] Since we don't yet know what was on the rag in the jogger case, we don't know whether it could have been an incapacitating inhalant. And --- we don't know yet whether or not a chemical was used to (attempt to) subdue Jessica.

Same for hogtying. It has not been verified, has it? -- that AS used this word when describing to mom or LE what he did? I can see him possibly being able to restrain her hands and feet if she were sitting in a seat in the vehicle, either un- or semi-conscious, or cooperating out of fear or threat.

But not the true definition of hogtie, with the hands and feet both bound, and bound together behind the body; agree it would be hard to do that in a car on a public street without being noticed.

(On the other hand, I keep wondering what his plan could have been with the jogger he attacked right out in the open, had the rag actually knocked her out there on or near the jogging trail. Then what??)

Yes, there are variations on hogtying. One method can be used to strangle a victim to death. It involves tying hands behind the back, binding ankles together, then very tightly binding ankles to a ligature around the neck from behind.

This will result in death in just a few minutes, and does not require the killer to further touch the victim or to bring about the death with his own hands or a weapon. The killer doesn't have to worry about being scratched or gouged; it's a very "hands off" approach. If the victim is gagged or unconscious, they cannot make a sound. If the victim is unconscious, death comes quicker as the victim will not struggle to survive.

This is very disturbing to write about, but if indeed AS admitted to hogtying Jessica as well as strangling her, it might be a possibility.

However, at this point we don't know whether a rag was involved, nor whether the report of "hogtying" actually came from the suspect. We don't know for sure what he did to her. I pray Jessica did not suffer beyond the initial horror of being abducted. I pray she was made unconscious from the beginning and did not know what happened to her, whatever it was. She was so adorable!! Her family and friends must be utterly devastated. The whole thing is heartbreaking and sickening.

 

[otto]

If anyone has a floorplan sketch of the house (hand sketch, realtor sketch) ... that they could send me in a PM, I'll build a scale model. Clearly something happened in the house, and having a 3D model may make it easier for us to visualize how the suspect could have done what he did without being detected by anyone else that lived in the house.

 

[Wishbone]

I disagree.
It would be pretty easy to hogtie a person in a vehicle. Especially a victim that has been surprised and is smaller and weaker than the attacker. Even if the perp did not use a chemical and just used a rag over the victims face would incapacitate them. To hogtie somebody takes seconds. Zip ties are readily available and take seconds.

There have been lot of kids and adults grabbed off the streets in broad daylight. Look at Victoria Stafford. She was grabbed after school and shoved into the back of a car. She wasn't hogtied and the murderers did not use chemicals.

If somebody grabbed me from behind and even just put their hand over my mouth I would't be able to breathe because of the panic.

Wondering why the term “hogtied” vs “tied up” was used. Hogtie is a pretty specific term. There appears to more involved in a hogtie than simply slipping on a zip tie or two. A hogtie is any position that results in the arms and legs being bound, both tied behind the person and then connecting the hands and feet. Guess we’ll have to wait for the official LE release on if or how Jessica was tied.