GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #5

[StormyNights]

GLOW-- Great comments. Thanks for sharing that. But, take a different viewpoint.

And you'd think with the stress and anxiety of all the devastated family's involved, why would Amanda Holt file a rather speedy divorce filing with the court? You'd think she was thinking of herself. Just seems odd and out of character and an abrupt decision to make in the middle of all this chaos.

I can and will honestly say, that if I was in the same position as Amanda, I too would file for divorce as quickly as I possibly could. I would NOT want to be associated with someone who is a murderer. JMO. I guess I am not understanding why you question her action of filing for divorce so quickly in the middle of all the chaos? I would be more likely to question why she WOULDN'T file for divorce. I suppose it is VERY difficult to say what one would or wouldn't do in these extreme situations. Amanda may have family/friends giving her some directions during these very trying times and may have suggested that be the best thing for her? IMO, I agree with her filing so quickly. I just wouldn't want to have any part of my spouse murdering someone, would you?

 

[gwenabob]

And you'd think with the stress and anxiety of all the devastated family's involved, why would Amanda Holt file a rather speedy divorce filing with the court? You'd think she was thinking of herself. Just seems odd and out of character and an abrupt decision to make in the middle of all this chaos.

Amanda has'nt exactly boosted Holt's self esteem or spoken highly about her husband about anything with her comments. She has'nt to my knowledge really had anything positive to say about her husband, kind of making him sound like a bumbling, undependable husband with a host of issues. Thus, fueling the fire against him.

snip.

I suspect the Holt marriage was already on the rocks. It sounds to me like she was already contemplating divorce and this was just the last straw.

 

[Xavier]

I can and will honestly say, that if I was in the same position as Amanda, I too would file for divorce as quickly as I possibly could. I would NOT want to be associated with someone who is a murderer. JMO. I guess I am not understanding why you question her action of filing for divorce so quickly in the middle of all the chaos? I would be more likely to question why she WOULDN'T file for divorce. I suppose it is VERY difficult to say what one would or wouldn't do in these extreme situations. Amanda may have family/friends giving her some directions during these very trying times and may have suggested that be the best thing for her? IMO, I agree with her filing so quickly. I just wouldn't want to have any part of my spouse murdering someone, would you?

<modsnip>.

 

[Xavier]

I'm wondering if Clint Heichel felt they were maybe JUST acquaintances of the Holts, why would they trust them with their home and valuables while away on vacation or going out of town?

And they did some things together, maybe not alot, but nonetheless, it is what it is.

Maybe this is meaningless, but I would never turn over the keys to my home and everything in it to "acquaintances"...

 

[JoCoKSEyes]

Does Amanda filing for divorce allow her to testify against Jonathan in a different way or more effective way than if she had not filed? My thought is yes. In that way, her filing so quickly may be of benefit to the prosecution and might be the best way she can help.

 

[AvalonBlue]

From my original post:

Originally in this case I thought there might be more than one person involved, however with all the news that has come out, JH's confession, and ALL his disorganized behavior, I believe JH acted alone. If anyone else was involved with him, I just don't see how he could have kept his mouth shut, KWIM?

From PIM's post:

Unless the one with him was the actual perp. Then he'd have very good reason to keep his mouth shut.

Actually, my point is that IF someone else was involved, was the "actual" perp, etc. I don't think JH would take the fall. I think he would have given up the info in a quick minute. Once he started "confessing" it seems he gave up lots of info it might have taken LE quite some time to discover if JH would have kept his mouth shut.

It's pretty hard for me to imagine that he would give some kind of fake confession to protect someone else. What would be the point? If someone were threatening him or blackmailing him, I certainly think telling LE would alleviate that threat.

And, although I certainly believe JH may have previously committed some other crimes for which he has not been caught, he seems so disorganized, frantic, etc. I just can’t see any reason that he would “have very good reason to keep his mouth shut” about anyone else.

JMO

 

[AvalonBlue]

This poor family and her friends. I hope beyond all hope that they never find websleuths and never have to read the things people who have never met them are saying about them.

I don't know why this case is so different from others where you aren't allowed to sleuth witnesses or victims and speculate about their involvement when there is no evidence to back up the wild claims. This is probably the first case that I've followed that after an arrest is made that instead of hoping and wishing for justice, people are speculating about conspiracy theories.

There is a reason for the KISS theory. Because wild conspiracy theories are just not that common.

The "Thanks" button was just not enough, iamnotagolem :rocker:

You said what you said SO well and I really appreciate your wise words.

 

[Quester]

10/30: Wife of accused killer Holt files for divorce

... in these types of cases, spouses may want to distance themselves from the suspect as quickly as possible.

"In these kinds of situations, people often file for divorce immediately to make a public statement that they don't accept the behavior," she said. ...

http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/176496331.html

 

[Glow]

GLOW-- Great comments. Thanks for sharing that. But, take a different viewpoint.

But, did you ask the boys what they thought about how all the evidence of WH's belongings, SUV, etc were found so incredibly quickly over miles of neighborhoods in such as quick manner, basically in one day?

<modsnip>.

How about Holt hiding the gun at the police dept parking lot area? Was it just stupidity leaving it visibly in front of anyone in broad daylight? Or something else was controlling him to look dumb, as if to speed this whole crime process up quickly so LE can have everything handed conveniently to them?

And you'd think with the stress and anxiety of all the devastated family's involved, why would Amanda Holt file a rather speedy divorce filing with the court? You'd think she was thinking of herself. <modsnip>.

Amanda has'nt exactly boosted Holt's self esteem or spoken highly about her husband about anything with her comments. She has'nt to my knowledge really had anything positive to say about her husband, kind of making him sound like a bumbling, undependable husband with a host of issues. Thus, fueling the fire against him.

And Holt seems to be volunteering in ridiculous fashion all kinds of intel to implicate himself above and beyond what's necessary with a frantic, anxious appearance and actions. Maybe someone else is controlling Holt's fate?

Just saying, let's have the court filter these obvious, questionable "red flags" to get to the real justice needing be served. Whom ever it may be getting served.

Hi Xavier,

I can see why all the "loose ends" you mentioned above can cause questions. It would be a lot more understandable if there was some logic that was easy to put ones finger on but murder doesn't always come wrapped that way.

I learned that with the Scott Peterson perp. Remember all the crazy stuff he did? Running out to the marina? Loading market umbrellas early that morning? Calling cell phones and leaving messages? It just went on and on.

It was almost to the point of "maybe he didn't do it because IF he had he sure wouldn't have been doing _____________ (fill in the blank).

I know that this next sentence is going to sound redundant because who doesn't think they are reasonable (even if they arent :blushing: )

but....

I would like to think that I am open to any legitimate theories that this went down any other way.

I dont see mystery in Amanda H. filing. Like was stated above by another poster, she probably had been under some strain in her marriage for a while. She probably was "enduring" because of her religious values but "enduring" and being happy are two different things. What her spouse did was so heinous that it made her choice very easy. She took it. I would have done the same thing IF it was already a bad marriage. The things that might make a person hesitate (thinking their spouse might be innocent, children etc) dont apply here.

As much as there are things about this case that dont make any sense, the hard truth is usually Occam's razor really does apply.

I think you and I are on the same page in that we want things explained. We want them to be understandable and make sense. So we keep looking at what we do have available and we keep a running dialogue going and we wait for more information to be released.

Its that last one that is so hard!

 

[BrownEyedGirl80]

Hi all and thanks for your comments. I am so busy with work right now it is all I can do to get time away here to read what everyone is posting!

I was at my sons house yesterday he was cleaning his various guns and rifles (we live in a very rural area and it is about to be "hunting season". A couple of his buddies stopped by and one of them was driving an Explorer. Well you as you can imagine, that brought this case to mind. Then it dawned on me....these guys know a LOT about guns and ballistics and they are males in their 20s. So I asked them if they had heard of this case and they had not. So I quickly gave them the facts. They had a few choice words about what exactly should be done with JH but I wont go in to that.....

I asked them about the shots and the shell casing, the way the blood was pooled, the number of shots etc. They had some interesting things to say.

They said that the entrance wound a gun makes is smaller going in and bigger coming out, That it could very well be that she was looking out the passenger window and he shot her in the back of the head (coward)from the drivers seat. She could have slumped back and then her body shoved over the middle console and into the back rear,

As far as the shots they mentioned a military procedure called "double tap" Two quick consecutive shots usually done to head and chest. They said that this "punk" probably had read about that since he was "into" hand guns and the shoots may have been his "attempt" at a double tap.

They also (surprisingly to me) were somewhat doubtful about the "sexual act" JH told LE about, They said if he was that hopped up on those alcohol/caffeine drinks he might have not been able to "perform" as he had hoped.

The only other interesting thing was when I described the robbery JH said had happened and what the robber said to him......two of them said at the same time...."that's probably something he said to his own victim.

So it was interesting hearing their thoughts. Such nice, caring young men, eager to help me with my questions and shaking their heads at the actions of JH :furious:

I am thinking the same thing as your son and his buddies when they said that JH's account of what the alleged robbers said to him sounds like something that JH probably said to his own victim. On page 32/44 of the affidavit, JH tells police..."When he was taking off the backpack, the pair was laughing saying "you like that 'B' (*advertiser censored*)?" To me that sounds like something that JH might say to WH while he was sexually assaulting her.

 

[Solariis]

I dont see mystery in Amanda H. filing. Like was stated above by another poster, she probably had been under some strain in her marriage for a while. She probably was "enduring" because of her religious values but "enduring" and being happy are two different things. What her spouse did was so heinous that it made her choice very easy. She took it. I would have done the same thing IF it was already a bad marriage. The things that might make a person hesitate (thinking their spouse might be innocent, children etc) dont apply here.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Docs-Holt-h...er censored*-and-stolen-iPhone-176052031.html

Holt's wife told detectives he had told her a story about being robbed, and she replied to detectives that she felt he was "probably lying" to her. She told police that it had been "absolutely crazy the past two days" and she was "sure that whole story (Holt's story) sounds crazy as well."

Amanda Holt went on to tell police that Jonathan Holt "can't handle things well" and is "very private." She said that Holt "keeps everything to himself. So many things build up, I think he just loses it," the search warrants say.

Amanda Holt said in the reports that her husband disappeared before, and about a year ago, he "freaked out and left" because he was having issues with his job.

If you just read the way she talks to LE about him, it sounds to me like he's been acting weird for quite a while now, probably even as long as a year ago when he disappeared in August 2011. As others mentioned in previous posts, they probably had a near non-existent sex life because of his *advertiser censored* addition and obsessions.

All of this combined with the fact that our justice system in the United States is supposed to be based on the premise of "Innocent until proven guilty."

Clearly AH strongly believes JH is also very capable of the crime he committed against WH. That should be enough to divorce anyone, but you'd think she wait until after the trial if she thought otherwise (especially since he plead not guilty even though he supposedly confessed). But do you blame her? I think it's pretty obvious she was ready to end that marriage and this was the nail that sealed the coffin.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AvalonBlue View Post
Originally in this case I thought there might be more than one person involved, however with all the news that has come out, JH's confession, and ALL his disorganized behavior, I believe JH acted alone. If anyone else was involved with him, I just don't see how he could have kept his mouth shut, KWIM?

From PIM's post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoirotryInMotion View Post
Unless the one with him was the actual perp. Then he'd have very good reason to keep his mouth shut.

Actually, my point is that IF someone else was involved, was the "actual" perp, etc. I don't think JH would take the fall. I think he would have given up the info in a quick minute. Once he started "confessing" it seems he gave up lots of info it might have taken LE quite some time to discover if JH would have kept his mouth shut.

It's pretty hard for me to imagine that he would give some kind of fake confession to protect someone else. What would be the point? If someone were threatening him or blackmailing him, I certainly think telling LE would alleviate that threat.

And, although I certainly believe JH may have previously committed some other crimes for which he has not been caught, he seems so disorganized, frantic, etc. I just can&#8217;t see any reason that he would &#8220;have very good reason to keep his mouth shut&#8221; about anyone else.

JMO

I think it was mentioned up thread a few posts that this kind of shooting is referred to as a "double tap" (actually this one might be called a double double-tap). If you google it, you'll discover it's a favored method used by hit men.

Outta here, today. So, sorry if you respond and I don't answer right away...

 

[jash]

I just finished reading every single post in all five threads and just wanted to say you guys are awesome. Your posts are thought-provoking and insightful (I think I wore out the "thanks" button).

I will add though that I, too, don't understand the thinly-veiled accusatory questions/theories directed at AFAIK innocent parties (and away from the accused/confessed party). Of course everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, and to express it here within the TOS. I just wonder whether these same people would be so adamantly playing "devil's advocate" if their loved ones were the victims.

With that said, I think everyone here is just looking for answers to try to explain or make sense of a frankly senseless crime. Sadly the answers to the who, when, how and why won't change the WHAT but it will hopefully lead to justice for Whitney and her loved ones. I expect this case will stay with me for a long time.

 

[Sasquatch]

I think it was mentioned up thread a few posts that this kind of shooting is referred to as a "double tap" (actually this one might be called a double double-tap). If you google it, you'll discover it's a favored method used by hit men.

Outta here, today. So, sorry if you respond and I don't answer right away...

As in my two earlier posts, JH fits the Anger-Retaliatory Rapist profile. One signature of this is Overkill. On page 395 of the Rape Investigation Handbook Savino/Turvey they give a case study on a ARR case, but involving stabbing. Overkill is defined as shooting or stabbing a person beyond what would reasonably kill them. Lower down on the case study they mention alcohol, in this case, intensifying the paranoia of the perpetrator. Not sure if we have tied the alcohol beverages from Dodge Park to JH yet.

http://books.google.com/books?id=mG... retaliatory rapist multiple gunshots&f=false

 

[jash]

One of the only things I can add to this discussion, since every other thought or idea I had has been previously expressed by at least one other person (and usually more eloquently!) is the question of whether JH belonged to a gym. There's been some discussion here about whether he went back to his apartment after ditching the vehicle at Walmart to clean up and/or change clothes. There was also some talk about whether he stashed somewhere the electronics he claimed were stolen. A gym would give him access to a shower, locker and possibly change of clothing.

The other thing I am wondering about is whether his black leather jacket, purportedly stolen, was ever discovered. If he was wearing it while attacking Whitney, there may be some good evidence on it.

 

[Xavier]

Does Amanda filing for divorce allow her to testify against Jonathan in a different way or more effective way than if she had not filed? My thought is yes. In that way, her filing so quickly may be of benefit to the prosecution and might be the best way she can help.

Not sure if the timing of the divorce matters, I'm not a lawyer. <modsnip>.

Her actions seemed like she was'nt "shocked" this crime could be commited by her husband...all of her comments from the get-go were basically negative things about Holt. No comments like " I can't believe he did this...I'm going to go visit him in jail...I'm going to get him an attorney....I need to meet with his parents" Bascially, nothing resembling her support of her husband. She discarded Holt pretty fast. Guilty until proven innocent. It's just kind of odd behavior...
I just think there's alot of rumblings behind the scenes yet brought out in the open.

 

[laurmac]

I am thinking the same thing as your son and his buddies when they said that JH's account of what the alleged robbers said to him sounds like something that JH probably said to his own victim. On page 32/44 of the affidavit, JH tells police..."When he was taking off the backpack, the pair was laughing saying "you like that 'B' (*advertiser censored*)?" To me that sounds like something that JH might say to WH while he was sexually assaulting her.

I thought the same thing. :no: :sick:

 

[Xavier]

Does Amanda filing for divorce allow her to testify against Jonathan in a different way or more effective way than if she had not filed? My thought is yes. In that way, her filing so quickly may be of benefit to the prosecution and might be the best way she can help.

Good question. IMO Amanda is a <modsnip> witness for both sides.
But why should she just benefit the prosecution?

 

[caffeinejean]

Jash, Good questions and thoughts. I never heard mention of a gym membership, but did think about Mt.Hood Community College being right there behind 257th and Stark...the center of all the goings on. The campus is really open and available and very busy. There are gyms in the area too but don't know if the expense would be prohibitive unless it's pay as you go. There is also a movie house 1/2 a block from Stark on 257th across the street from the campus.

Just thought that JH might be pretty familiar with the campus and maybe got his EMT status there. They do offer EMT training.

And there has been no mention again of a leather jacket which you could believe he had one to go with a motorcycle. I think the search warrant LE had for Holt's apartment (friday evening) did have a leather jacket on it but LE never said if they recovered one. LE did find a "Dockers Band jacket" in a compartment of his seized backpack.

 

[Xavier]

From my original post:



From PIM's post:




Actually, my point is that IF someone else was involved, was the "actual" perp, etc. I don't think JH would take the fall. I think he would have given up the info in a quick minute. Once he started "confessing" it seems he gave up lots of info it might have taken LE quite some time to discover if JH would have kept his mouth shut.

It's pretty hard for me to imagine that he would give some kind of fake confession to protect someone else. What would be the point? If someone were threatening him or blackmailing him, I certainly think telling LE would alleviate that threat.

And, although I certainly believe JH may have previously committed some other crimes for which he has not been caught, he seems so disorganized, frantic, etc. I just can&#8217;t see any reason that he would &#8220;have very good reason to keep his mouth shut&#8221; about anyone else.

JMO

Yes, Holt would surely identify a 2cd perp or accomplice. But, maybe the accomplice had enough power over Holt to create a fear of reprisal to Holt's loved ones. This would be enough to keep Holt quiet. You gotta remember, Holt really had no serious criminal back ground and is such a klutz at completing this crime. As if all the evidence were meant to be found easily?

Stop, slow down and ask yourself, Why would Holt want to be caught? Maybe some made it all possible?