Cadaver dog hit on scent in DBs bedroom

[Clutchbag]

i think we are forgetting a CADAVER dog Alerted, to death

 

[RANCH]

I do not agree with you in the least. SAR dogs can discriminate scents to a single person. The FBI will use highly trained dogs. It is not a stretch that they discriminated to BL's scent and her scent only.:moo:

The cadaver dog thread seems to be the correct thread for this.

While I agree that Search And Rescue dogs can be trained to trail on the scent of a single person I don't see how that would relate to this case. Why would they even try to use a trailing dog inside of the Irwin house? Lisa's scent would be all over the house and the dog wouldn't be of any use.

I thought that they used an HRD dog. I'm not aware of a HRD dog (Human Remains Detection) that can alert to the scent of decomposition from selected individuals. I'm not sure how someone could even begin to train a dog to discriminate the difference (if there even is any) between one dead persons decomp scent and another. MOO

 

[Donjeta]

I am not a dog so this is just speculation but I think that in the very early stages of decomposition the scents probably are a little different because the person's original living scent probably lingers on for a while and gets mixed with the decomposition scent.

If it was somewhere outside they could get the same or a different dog to indicate whether it senses traces of Lisa's living scent near where the cadaver scent was discovered but it would be useless in her home.

 

[Melon]

The cadaver dog thread seems to be the correct thread for this.

While I agree that Search And Rescue dogs can be trained to trail on the scent of a single person I don't see how that would relate to this case. Why would they even try to use a trailing dog inside of the Irwin house? Lisa's scent would be all over the house and the dog wouldn't be of any use.

I thought that they used an HRD dog. I'm not aware of a HRD dog (Human Remains Detection) that can alert to the scent of decomposition from selected individuals. I'm not sure how someone could even begin to train a dog to discriminate the difference (if there even is any) between one dead persons decomp scent and another. MOO

BBM, MOSAR dog(s) were at the warrant execution. Why would LE bring them there if they were useless outside of only looking for live scent, especially after getting the warrant based on a cadaver dog hit? There is a reason the dogs that were there were invited there.

http://lstribune.net/lees-summit-news/community/search-and-rescue---hard-working-dogs.htm

Many of the team’s K-9 members are aging so some handlers have begun training second dogs. The first dog a MoSAR handler works with must perform both rescue searches, locating the living and recovery, bringing home the deceased victim. With their second dogs, some team members have chosen to focus on a specific area

Sure reads to me like any of those dogs would be able to alert to decomp.
One of the dogs present at the SW is on video here showing a scent discrimination trick [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8590766&postcount=137"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - I no longer believe that...[/ame] it's not a stretch to me that dog could be used to discriminate decomp to BL and her only. Interesting nugget from our board [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7279218&postcount=221"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**[/ame] Babies smell different to dogs.

I am just about certain Martin Grime was at the SW with two of his dogs. http://www.linkedin.com/pub/martin-grime/8/4a7/972 note it mentions Forensic Canine program. Imagine what level of training and certification is required to be certified as a forensic canine handler? For the FBI at that.

We can surmise the dogs present were well trained. IMO, LE didn't just pick dogs willy nilly, they used the ones trained in specific disciplines to aid in their investigation. YMMV.

 

[RANCH]

BBM, MOSAR dog(s) were at the warrant execution. Why would LE bring them there if they were useless outside of only looking for live scent, especially after getting the warrant based on a cadaver dog hit? There is a reason the dogs that were there were invited there.

http://lstribune.net/lees-summit-news/community/search-and-rescue---hard-working-dogs.htm

Sure reads to me like any of those dogs would be able to alert to decomp.
One of the dogs present at the SW is on video here showing a scent discrimination trick Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - I no longer believe that... it's not a stretch to me that dog could be used to discriminate decomp to BL and her only. Interesting nugget from our board Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION** Babies smell different to dogs.

I am just about certain Martin Grime was at the SW with two of his dogs. http://www.linkedin.com/pub/martin-grime/8/4a7/972 note it mentions Forensic Canine program. Imagine what level of training and certification is required to be certified as a forensic canine handler? For the FBI at that.

We can surmise the dogs present were well trained. IMO, LE didn't just pick dogs willy nilly, they used the ones trained in specific disciplines to aid in their investigation. YMMV.

All I'm saying is that a HRD dog is trained to alert to the scent of human decomposition and it's impossible for a HRD dog to distinguish between different sources of that scent. The "FBI" dog that made the hit could have even been cross trained to do both trailing and HRD work but the fact remains the hit in question was for the "scent of a deceased human" and not for the presence of Lisa Irwin in her own home. What good would it do to have a dog alert for the presence of Lisa in her own home?

I agree that the dogs used in this case were probably well trained in whatever discipline that they were used for. If you can find a link stating that a HRD dog can be trained to discriminate between two different dead human beings decomp scent, I would be very interested in reading how it's done.

http://media2.nbcactionnews.com/NWT/pdf/20111021_irwinwarrant.pdf

 

[Melon]

All I'm saying is that a HRD dog is trained to alert to the scent of human decomposition and it's impossible for a HRD dog to distinguish between different sources of that scent. The "FBI" dog that made the hit could have even been cross trained to do both trailing and HRD work but the fact remains the hit in question was for the "scent of a deceased human" and not for the presence of Lisa Irwin in her own home. What good would it do to have a dog alert for the presence of Lisa in her own home?

I agree that the dogs used in this case were probably well trained in whatever discipline that they were used for. If you can find a link stating that a HRD dog can be trained to discriminate between two different dead human beings decomp scent, I would be very interested in reading how it's done.

http://media2.nbcactionnews.com/NWT/pdf/20111021_irwinwarrant.pdf

BBM Someone asked here if dogs could discriminate decomp to a specific person. [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7265901&postcount=63"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**[/ame] Answer [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7265920&postcount=64"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**[/ame] People will have to come to their own conclusions as to if such trained dogs were used in the BL case. For me, it's not a stretch. We know there was a dog capable of scent discriminating to a specific person, MoSar training requires they be able to find deceased targets. When you successfully train a dog for a task or trick, you lay a foundation for advancement in skill.

I need to do more research for Grime and his forensic canine program. For some reason I was under the impression those dogs were not utilized for live finds or trails.

As to the warrant, we only know how it was written. Since warrants can be written with the bare minimum of information needed I cannot not conclude that the dogs only hit on generic decomp.

 

[RANCH]

BBM Someone asked here if dogs could discriminate decomp to a specific person. Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION** Answer Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION** People will have to come to their own conclusions as to if such trained dogs were used in the BL case. For me, it's not a stretch. We know there was a dog capable of scent discriminating to a specific person, MoSar training requires they be able to find deceased targets. When you successfully train a dog for a task or trick, you lay a foundation for advancement in skill.

I need to do more research for Grime and his forensic canine program. For some reason I was under the impression those dogs were not utilized for live finds or trails.

As to the warrant, we only know how it was written. Since warrants can be written with the bare minimum of information needed I cannot not conclude that the dogs only hit on generic decomp.

BBM

Yes a trailing dog can be used to follow the scent of an individual person. The handler uses a item with the target persons scent on it for the dog to know which scent to trail. That's not the issue here. We're talking about the ability of a HRD dog to alert only to a specific persons decomp scent.

Look at it this way. How would a dog handler have a sample of a missing persons decomp scent to give the HRD dog to smell before a search is conducted?

 

[Melon]

BBM

Yes a trailing dog can be used to follow the scent of an individual person. The handler uses a item with the target persons scent on it for the dog to know which scent to trail. That's not the issue here. We're talking about the ability of a HRD dog to alert only to a specific persons decomp scent.

Look at it this way. How would a dog handler have a sample of a missing persons decomp scent to give the HRD dog to smell before a search is conducted?

The question I linked was pretty specific to dogs discriminating decomp to a specific person, I don't see where your analogy of trailing applies. :waitasec:

Why would they need a decomp scent prior to a search? They already have BL's scent.
Although any of the items that removed from BL's home in the searches prior to the warrant execution could also contain the scent of a deceased BL, I don't allow for those to target the dog for searches during the warrant. Some components that make up human beings have to remain stable after being shed from human beings, otherwise DNA collected from trace evidence would be useless. It stands to reason to me that whatever it is the dogs detect to locate a live target would also be present wherever a deceased person was. JMO.
YMMV

 

[RANCH]

The question I linked was pretty specific to dogs discriminating decomp to a specific person, I don't see where your analogy of trailing applies. :waitasec:

Why would they need a decomp scent prior to a search? They already have BL's scent.
Although any of the items that removed from BL's home in the searches prior to the warrant execution could also contain the scent of a deceased BL, I don't allow for those to target the dog for searches during the warrant. Some components that make up human beings have to remain stable after being shed from human beings, otherwise DNA collected from trace evidence would be useless. It stands to reason to me that whatever it is the dogs detect to locate a live target would also be present wherever a deceased person was. JMO.
YMMV

BBM

Everyone has an individual scent that can be trailed if a scent item is available for the dog to identify that scent signature. LE didn't need a dog to tell them that Lisa's scent was in her own home. What LE used was a HRD dog that is trained to alert to the scent of human decomposition from any human body. Well trained HRD dogs are trained using real human tissues that off gas the scent of decomposition. That's what their trained to alert to, not the scent that a living person would give off. MOO.

 

[Melon]

BBM

Everyone has an individual scent that can be trailed if a scent item is available for the dog to identify that scent signature. LE didn't need a dog to tell them that Lisa's scent was in her own home. What LE used was a HRD dog that is trained to alert to the scent of human decomposition from any human body. Well trained HRD dogs are trained using real human tissues that off gas the scent of decomposition. That's what their trained to alert to, not the scent that a living person would give off. MOO.

BBM. That sure reads as an assertion. Please fill us in how you know that for a fact. TIA.

 

[redheadedgal]

either the entire population of the planet are reading here today and agree with you or the internet or WS is seriously broken lmao

(see "thanked by" line)

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Wow! I knew this site was getting to be very popular, but - well, just wow!:great::great::great:

 

[Whisperer]

<Mod Snip> The "Cadaver dog" alerted on human remains inside of the Irwin house. Is there anything else needed to know concerning this fact?

 

[KsStormy]

Are we still debating the cadaver dog? The "Cadaver dog" alerted on human remains inside of the Irwin house. Is there anything else needed to know concerning this fact?

The FBI as well as the awesome abilities of dogs are good enough for ME! :rocker:

 

[LMax]

The Following 4,294,967,295 Users Say Thank You to Melon For This Useful Post:
Lol

 

[RANCH]

BBM. That sure reads as an assertion. Please fill us in how you know that for a fact. TIA.

I found some links that should help explain my point of view.

Cadaver dogs are trained to ignore live human scent and animal scent and only “indicate” on human remains.

Cadaver dogs working in a disaster situation focus on more recent decomposition odors, while cadaver dogs that work with law enforcement are also trained to recognize older decomposition odors and smaller odor sources. Only actual human remains are used to train the dogs; no pseudo scent is used in the training process.

http://www.globalanimal.org/2011/06...ut-truth-in-casey-anthony-murder-trial/41784/

The quote below is from the NNDDA (National Narcotic Detector Dog Association) Cadaver Dog Search Certification.

SECTION 1. TYPE OF CADAVER AIDS TO BE USED FOR CERTIFICATION:
Only Human remains will be used as aids. To certify the team is required to alert to bone,
fluid, and tissue. Urine cannot is used as a fluid for certification.

http://www.nndda.org/docman/doc_view/6-cadaver-search-certification?tmpl=component&format=raw

Unlike live human beings which each have their own "signature" scent like a fingerprint, bodies become "generic" human cadaver odor when they pass into biological death. This odor, in various stages of decomposition (from immediate death to many years post-mortem) is used to train HRD dogs that work for Canine Search Solutions

http://www.caninesearchsolutions.org/thetool.html

So we can see that cadaver dogs are trained with actual human tissue, bone or fluids. They alert to the scent given off from those sources. It's interesting to note that they will alert to "older" decomposition odors as well as recent ones.

The last quote explains the difference between the scent from a live person vs dead and the "generic" odor that a HRD dog is trained to alert to. That's the exact point that I've been trying to make.

 

[RANCH]

Another case that I found interesting and relevant. This is a Texas case from 1994. Trejos vs State. Here's some information from his appeal that includes testimony from his trial.

Deputy Pikett testified that cadaver searching is a less rigorous skill because it only requires the dog to be able to distinguish between human scents and animal scents, and the dog need not further distinguish between individual humans. &#8194;

In 2001, seven years after Trejos claims to have killed his mother in-law and dumped her body in a ditch we have this.

On November 9, 2001, police officers took two dogs trained to detect the scent of cadavers to the location where appellant said that he and his wife had dumped Maria's body. &#8194; The two cadaver dogs and their handlers worked the area independently of one another so that they would not influence each other. &#8194; Both dogs alerted within five or six feet of one another, at the spot that appellant had indicated he had placed the body. &#8194; Although an excavation was performed, no remains were found.

This shows us that HRD dogs can alert to the scent of human remains many years later even when the site is outdoors and exposed to the elements.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/tx-court-of-appeals/1101233.html

 

[RANCH]

An HRD dog WILL alert on human blood.

So they hit on decomposing humans AND blood that came from a living human being? In the two years we've lived here, we had a fall which resulted in stitches (head wound) as well as a bad bloody nose that occurred while I was in the shower (meaning I didn't get there quick enough). So at my house there are at least two spots on our floor that may get a "hit" by a cadaver dog even though everyone in our home is living?

Possibly. It would largely depend on what kind of surface the blood was deposited on.

For example, I too had an injury in the past year that produced a lot of blood inside a residence. Actually it was a trail from outside to inside, which may help explain even further.

In my situation; there was blood deposited on grass, then on dirt, then on cement, then on sealed hardwood floors, then on tile, then on a towel, then on stainless steel.

We cleaned everything up, of course- but certain surfaces retain HR scent particles (such as blood) much longer than others. The concrete, for example. Scrubbed it with bleach and can't see a thing. But one of our HRD dogs will still hit on it if we put him to work.

The tile? Scrubbed that too- but the grout retains the scent. He'll hit on that also. The sealed hardwood floors- no. The towel we threw away, so I've no idea, lol. If we hadn't thrown it away, I guarantee he'd be hitting on that. The stainless steel- no. But that's because it is a sink, and not a sealed stainless steel container.

Does that make any sense?

BBM

Here is Oriah describing how it's possible for a HRD dog to alert to human blood and how a HRD dog hit on blood in her own home.

Could the "FBI" dog have hit on an old blood stain in the Irwin home?

 

[RANCH]

BBM, MOSAR dog(s) were at the warrant execution. Why would LE bring them there if they were useless outside of only looking for live scent, especially after getting the warrant based on a cadaver dog hit? There is a reason the dogs that were there were invited there.

http://lstribune.net/lees-summit-news/community/search-and-rescue---hard-working-dogs.htm

Sure reads to me like any of those dogs would be able to alert to decomp.
One of the dogs present at the SW is on video here showing a scent discrimination trick Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - I no longer believe that... it's not a stretch to me that dog could be used to discriminate decomp to BL and her only. Interesting nugget from our board Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION** Babies smell different to dogs.

I am just about certain Martin Grime was at the SW with two of his dogs. http://www.linkedin.com/pub/martin-grime/8/4a7/972 note it mentions Forensic Canine program. Imagine what level of training and certification is required to be certified as a forensic canine handler? For the FBI at that.

We can surmise the dogs present were well trained. IMO, LE didn't just pick dogs willy nilly, they used the ones trained in specific disciplines to aid in their investigation. YMMV.

I'm revisiting this post of yours Melon because I have a couple of questions. How do you know that MOSAR dogs were used during the warrant execution? Particularly the dog you say is in the video showing a trick of some kind?

And why is it important that baby's smell different to dogs than older humans? Is it because sarx says that she/he has had problems using a trailing dog tracking the scent of a baby? We're talking about a HRD dog alerting to the scent of human decomposition and not a trailing dog searching for a baby. I haven't seen anything to suggest that a dead body of an infant would produce odors such that it would make a difference to a well trained HRD dog.

As for training, I would assume that the "FBI" dog that made the hit was well trained. At least I hope so. I doubt if we will ever know any details about that unless this case goes to trial. MOO

 

[redheadedgal]

didn't JT "try" to explain the hit as being dirty diapers or toe nails or "about 10 non-human things"? i didn't hear anything about why there was blood on an area near the floor in the bedroom...