IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

[otto]

This is correct.

I wonder if avoiding the police was because he knew they would eventually be contacting him to say bodies had been found (because statistically in case like this, that's the case- not because he had any inside knowledge) and really didn't want to actually hear or face that the girls' bodies had been found. Maybe he felt like if he could avoid hearing it from authorities he wouldn't have to face that his little girl & niece were dead, even though he already knew in the back of his mind by this time it was likely.

When the news first broke, the families were described as completely unprepared for this result. That surprised me, as it seemed to me to be the only result. There must have been a lot of hope that the children would eventually come home alive - so a meeting with police that excluded a "reunion" had to be bad news. Avoidance seems consistent with hoping for the best and not wanting to face the worst case scenario.

 

[epiphany]

Avoidance behavior is consistent with some of Dad's previous lifestyle choices and also addiction.

 

[threecrazykids]

I feel so bad for this entire family...and yet so many questions still remain regarding the separation between the girl's families.

I am still trying to wrap my head about what they may be feeling. Heather and Drew have stated they feel that this crime was probably committed by a SO...so, it confuses me as to why "despite the coming together in the first few hours during their disappearance there is still a separation of the familiy" (paraphrasing from the QC link).

Also in that article she states that it was indeed the Collins' decision to have separate celebrations, and not hers (which I feel is completely understandable) and "that's all I'm going to say about that...I'm not going to chase anybody down" (again paraphrasing).

If Collins's feel that a SO did this, I wonder why there is still this "edge" between the families and clear tension.

I am beginning to wonder (and this is COMPLETELY MOO) if Heather feels disdain for Misty/Dan/Tammy etc. and the "other" side of the family because she felt she had done everything "the right way" and her little girl was still somehow caught up in a tragedy that involved the "other" side of the family...the one who was drug riddled, jail frequenting, less than ideal parenting, etc...and she feels she did everything the OPPOSITE and is just pissed, period. KWIM?

Even though she is an amazing woman of faith, maybe she feels like she did everything the "right way" by being very involved in her church, a solid home where both parents are not only in the home, but very loving etc. and still feels brought down by "other side of the family".

I don't feel like I'm explaining myself so people understand what I'm trying to say so I'm just going to say it:

I wonder if Heather feels like she doesn't want Elizabeth's death to be associated with Lyric's "side" of the family and all of the negative connotation that goes along with it.

I don't doubt that she will be at Lyric's funeral/celebration of life and the likewise for Misty/Dan at Elizabeth's, but I just wonder if there isn't something deeper going on with this divide.:twocents:

 

[lillygator]

I apologize I only read the last two pages, but has a COD been announced?
thanks!

 

[otto]

I think that Misty probably has good reasons for not having the girls buried and memorialized together.

One of which, in my opinion, is that little Lizzie would over-shine (so to speak) Lyric at the memorial. Lyric is smaller, cuter (in a traditional little kid way), and looks more innocent than her older, more developed cousin. Lyric looks less like a child, and therefore less innocent, cute, helpless etc (although we know she was all of these things because she's 10).

I was heavy and 5'6"ish at age 10 and had started to develop. Teachers treated me differently. I'd overhear them call the short, thin, not yet developing girls "so cute" and baby them. I felt like they and some adults thought I was an ugly duckling and would forget that I was the same age as those "little kids" despite being stuck in a woman's body (with size 11 feet). It was like they expected me to act older than the "little" girls my same age and be more mature/not kid around all cutesy like the "little" girls. I was taller than all but one of the boys in my grade & I always felt like some were suspicious that I and the other developing, larger girls would be interested in boys in a way that the little girls were not. Like developing early made us more prone to be promiscuous or something, when really, all we wanted to do was play Barbies and watch "The Lion King" like other 10 year olds & wish away all of the changes that were happening to our bodies. Many adults seemed to have a presumption we were somehow less innocent or less like children because we were bigger.

My guess is "little"/younger Lizzie would have taken away some of the spotlight from Lyric, at least in a memorial service. Putting pics of the two side by side might cause some to question that perhaps the older, more developed cousin was talking to someone online, meeting a boy, etc that led to this event and poor little Lizzie got dragged into it & hurt also.

I hope this all makes sense. I am not saying anyone at WS has treated either girl differently or as less/more innocent or as less/more of a child. However, my guess (based on my own experience) is that many of the adults (non-family members) who interacted with Lyric treated her somewhat differently from other "little" less-developed kids her own age and that as her mom, Misty picked up on this & we're seeing it in her decision to have a separate service/burial.

I grew for about a year more, eventually reaching 5'8ish with size 11 feet (thank goodness my feet didn't grow anymore). I eventually lost a lot of weight and entered college as 5'8ish and 135lbs/size 4/6 or so (not what I weigh/wear anymore) and outgrew my ugly duckling, kid in a woman's body, awkward 10-13 year old overweight developing-early phase. Lyric reminds me of myself as far as her size at that age (granted I was taller as well)- I am sad that she will never get to enjoy her swan phase where the adults (and sometimes other kids) who treated you so differently during that awkward stage see you and are shocked at the beautiful swan you've become (and you can tell they feel bad for how they acted towards you years ago). Just another thing this perp stole from these girls.

Lyric, at 4'11", was a little taller for her age ... but not mature, not adult looking ... just a wee bit taller than the average 10 year old. In fact, she was as tall as the average M/F 12 year old.

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...ion_12862912-cdd5-11e1-a9b3-0019bb2963f4.html

US Stats:

At 10 yrs M&F, average height is 54.2" (137.6 cm). Average weight is 70.2 lb. (31.9 kg).

Here's the average adult female measurements

http://www.adaptivemall.com/10yrsmf.html

original source: Humanscale 1-9: Amazon.ca: Niels Diffrient, Alvin R. Tilley, Joan Bardagjy

 

[otto]

I apologize I only read the last two pages, but has a COD been announced?
thanks!

There is no cause of death and, barring any knife or gunshot wounds on the bones, I doubt that there ever will be a cause of death.

 

[otto]

I feel so bad for this entire family...and yet so many questions still remain regarding the separation between the girl's families.

I am still trying to wrap my head about what they may be feeling. Heather and Drew have stated they feel that this crime was probably committed by a SO...so, it confuses me as to why "despite the coming together in the first few hours during their disappearance there is still a separation of the familiy" (paraphrasing from the QC link).

Also in that article she states that it was indeed the Collins' decision to have separate celebrations, and not hers (which I feel is completely understandable) and "that's all I'm going to say about that...I'm not going to chase anybody down" (again paraphrasing).

If Collins's feel that a SO did this, I wonder why there is still this "edge" between the families and clear tension.

I am beginning to wonder (and this is COMPLETELY MOO) if Heather feels disdain for Misty/Dan/Tammy etc. and the "other" side of the family because she felt she had done everything "the right way" and her little girl was still somehow caught up in a tragedy that involved the "other" side of the family...the one who was drug riddled, jail frequenting, less than ideal parenting, etc...and she feels she did everything the OPPOSITE and is just pissed, period. KWIM?

Even though she is an amazing woman of faith, maybe she feels like she did everything the "right way" by being very involved in her church, a solid home where both parents are not only in the home, but very loving etc. and still feels brought down by "other side of the family".

I don't feel like I'm explaining myself so people understand what I'm trying to say so I'm just going to say it:

I wonder if Heather feels like she doesn't want Elizabeth's death to be associated with Lyric's "side" of the family and all of the negative connotation that goes along with it.

I don't doubt that she will be at Lyric's funeral/celebration of life and the likewise for Heather/Dan at Elizabeth's, but I just wonder if there isn't something deeper going on with this divide.:twocents:

We've seen here how people suspect the family because of the meth connection. The same thing happened with Victoria Stafford - the mother's pharmaceutical drug addiction led to much speculation that the mother was involved. She wasn't. Nothing she did caused her daughter to be abducted and murdered. It seems to me that to fully appreciate what has happened here - which is needed in order to make an arrest, people need to ignore the meth connection and focus on the fact that these two little girls were grabbed while riding their bikes on a summer afternoon. Focusing on Lyric's parents seems to detract from the true nature of the crime of child abductions. They're easy targets, but I sincerely doubt that anything they did at any time in their lives caused this to happen.

 

[borndem]

Did you lose it completely when Drew was asked if he would ever go back into Lizzie's room? Because that just tore me apart.

Me too. I had to actually go re-listen/watch because I was crying so hard the first time I missed this part.

Yes, that was tuff for me, too. It's almost always the same -- the women are the tuffer ones, and the men are the ones who have the hard time. Especially, it seems with daddies and daughters, and Lizzie seemed to be so loving and open. The images of daddy and daughter, with her in his lap & both being silly, made me emotional because my Daddy and I did that, too. And having other children just doesn't "make up for it," as some people may think. The idea, "Well, it's good that they still have their other child(ren)," is ridiculous. There will never be another Elizabeth for any of them.

And now they have their other children to shore up and set an example of handling it somehow without just crying all the time.

 

[Snufamonbobball]

After I watched the interview the impression I was left with was that Heather was really ticked that Misty and Dan's problems were the focus of the investigation in the beginning. They stopped cooperating at first, and that took the focus AWAY from the perp and put the focus onto Misty and Dan, and of course their less than law abiding "friends".

It seems to me that Heather feels that she has given Misty chance after chance, and I'm sure Misty feels that Heather sits on a high horse. Siblings are often forgiving and judgemental- all rolled into one big, sometimes ugly ball.

I hope that Misty can at some point get herself together, it can be hard to do in a small town- the same people, and same places can mean the same troubles-I hope that Heather is able to heal the rift in her heart, although I suspect that will be much easier said than done.

 

[SoBeCzar]

There is no cause of death and, barring any knife or gunshot wounds on the bones, I doubt that there ever will be a cause of death.

An autopsy, even this late, can reveal wounds to most everything except say suffocation, disease and wounds that exit the body without hitting bone. That leaves strangulation, blunt force trauma ,fire, beating and possibly drowning along with knife or gunshot. Though it has been a while, lots can still be learned.

Cause of death may hint at who did it and or what their motive was. Don't give up on cause of death yet. I am waiting to hear it to make my up my mind about a few things.

 

[SapphireSteel]

We've seen here how people suspect the family because of the meth connection. The same thing happened with Victoria Stafford - the mother's pharmaceutical drug addiction led to much speculation that the mother was involved. She wasn't. Nothing she did caused her daughter to be abducted and murdered. It seems to me that to fully appreciate what has happened here - which is needed in order to make an arrest, people need to ignore the meth connection and focus on the fact that these two little girls were grabbed while riding their bikes on a summer afternoon. Focusing on Lyric's parents seems to detract from the true nature of the crime of child abductions. They're easy targets, but I sincerely doubt that anything they did at any time in their lives caused this to happen.

I have to disagree.

There are a million reasons to have suspicion, not least of all because LE apparently did/do.

Hinky behaviour is hinky behaviour, and in my humble opinion some parties have displayed that in spades.

I have never, ever believed the girls were taken as revenge or directly due to any of their parent's drug related activities.

There is no question the lifestyle potentially exposed the girls to harm, and in my opinion the abductor will almost certainly have drug convictions in his past and be part of the local drug scene...but as far as being an actual motive and reason for the abduction and murder, such as revenge, no. It goes against KISS, if someone has a beef with Dan they will just abduct and murder Dan, not two little girls.

:moo:

 

[callyn]

An autopsy, even this late, can reveal wounds to most everything except say suffocation, disease and wounds that exit the body without hitting bone. That leaves strangulation, blunt force trauma ,fire, beating and possibly drowning along with knife or gunshot. Though it has been a while, lots can still be learned.

Cause of death may hint at who did it and or what their motive was. Don't give up on cause of death yet. I am waiting to hear it to make my up my mind about a few things.

I think even strangulation can sometimes be determined by a broken hyoid bone in the neck.

 

[stillwatersc]

 

[chelsea6]

After the interview yesterday (which I haven't yet completely viewed), I think that we have two new pieces of information. The children's shoes were at the scene and the day they were murdered is given as July 13. That suggests to me that the girls were taken directly to the 7 Bridges park, wearing their shoes, and murdered. From there, I think we know two things: the perp is local (which we pretty much already knew), and the perp had to get back to his life by Saturday. I strongly suspect that the perp has returned to the scene more than once to check out whether the bodies continued to be difficult to find. I also doubt that anyone starts their criminal career by abducting two young girls, so this person is on someone's radar. I would bet that this person travels with a powerful flashlight in the vehicle to navigate the area at night. I would also bet that this person has mentioned the park in casual conversation during the last 5 months ... and shown too much interest in the investigation. Hopefully there will be an arrest soon.

I don't think any of these have been mentioned on here yet.. good thinking!!

 

[borndem]

I'm not a regular poster...found this site during the Casey Anthony trial and came back when I heard about this disapperance.

I just watched the video of the parents. Even though I am decidedly not religious, I so admire their faith. How wonderful that it is giving them strength through such a time.

After viewing the video, I am leaning more toward the sex offender theory. The mother was clearly adament about not knowing the details, but the father seemed less so. Because he was so sure it was a sex offender, and someone who had offended before, I wonder if that's what the police are thinking, and if they indicated that when talking to the parents (or maybe just the dad). It makes me think they found something at the scene to point that way.

It is so incredibly sad. Although I admire the parents for not wanting to know the details and staying out of the investigation, I have to say that I don't get it. I feel like I would be the exact opposite: I would need to know everything. But, of course, you never know how you are going to respond to such a horrendous tragedy.

Although you've "been around WS for a while,"

:Welcome1:

LeeCR7 !!


:greetings:
​

 

[SapphireSteel]

Originally Posted by SapphireSteel
I did hope they were alive.

One thing that helped extinguish that hope was an impromptu interview I saw on youtube with one of the peripherally involved who lived in Waterloo. This person is very close to the situation and likely knows a heck of a lot that we don't.

This person said "X didn't have time to go and murder anyone! He didn't have time to go and abduct anyone!".

When I heard that word, even though the person corrected it, my heart went to the floor. I wondered right then if one of the reasons the girls haven't been found, is they were murdered.

^^^Hinky behaviour. From a forensic linguistic pov. I posted that weeks ago and I still can't get past it, especially now the girls have been found, (apparently) murdered.

 

[Zoe Zo]

When the news first broke, the families were described as completely unprepared for this result. That surprised me, as it seemed to me to be the only result. There must have been a lot of hope that the children would eventually come home alive - so a meeting with police that excluded a "reunion" had to be bad news. Avoidance seems consistent with hoping for the best and not wanting to face the worst case scenario.

I think no matter how much we prepare our self for the bad I believe our heart still holds on to hope. I had an Aunt who I was very close to who got bone cancer and there was no cure for it and I knew she was going to died, 3 months later it happen. I thought I prepared myself, I was so wrong in that thinking, I took it very hard.

My heart just breaks for all of them.

 

[otto]

I have to disagree.

There are a million reasons to have suspicion, not least of all because LE apparently did/do.

Hinky behaviour is hinky behaviour, and in my humble opinion some parties have displayed that in spades.

I have never, ever believed the girls were taken as revenge or directly due to any of their parent's drug related activities.

There is no question the lifestyle potentially exposed the girls to harm, and in my opinion the abductor will almost certainly have drug convictions in his past and be part of the local drug scene...but as far as being an actual motive and reason for the abduction and murder, such as revenge, no. It goes against KISS, if someone has a beef with Dan they will just abduct and murder Dan, not two little girls.

:moo:

What lifestyle caused Elizabeth to be harmed?

If we're keeping it simple, then the simple truth is that Lyric was having a short visit with cousins in a different city than where she lived. She went for a bike ride with one of those cousins. Together, they vanished during that short bike ride. The family with whom she was visiting has no "lifestyle" issues that would potentially expose those children to any harm.

If we want to completely complicate the facts and focus on divorced parents that lived in another town, claim that because those divorced parents had personal problems with drugs, then some person they knew followed their daughter to another city where she was visiting her cousins and abducted her and her cousin ... all because the parents that live elsewhere used drugs ... that's about as complicated as it can be. Why would we want to complicate the situation? Why would there be speculation about the 10 year old appearing to be an adult? Keeping it simple is viewing this child abduction for what it is ... two young girls, riding bikes, they vanish, their bikes are in a suspicious location and they are discovered murdered months later.

 

[otto]

Originally Posted by SapphireSteel
I did hope they were alive.

One thing that helped extinguish that hope was an impromptu interview I saw on youtube with one of the peripherally involved who lived in Waterloo. This person is very close to the situation and likely knows a heck of a lot that we don't.

This person said "X didn't have time to go and murder anyone! He didn't have time to go and abduct anyone!".

When I heard that word, even though the person corrected it, my heart went to the floor. I wondered right then if one of the reasons the girls haven't been found, is they were murdered.

^^^Hinky behaviour. From a forensic linguistic pov. I posted that weeks ago and I still can't get past it, especially now the girls have been found, (apparently) murdered.

Common sense suggested that they were abducted and murdered. How is knowing that suspicious?

 

[otto]

I think even strangulation can sometimes be determined by a broken hyoid bone in the neck.

That's true. If there is evidence on the bones of a cause of death, then perhaps we will eventually learn the cause of the death. If there was strangulation and the hyoid bone was not broken, if there was drowning, or soft tissue knife wounds, then I doubt the cause of death will ever be known.