IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #24

[Zoe Zo]

My thinking might be TOTALLY silly so I'm sorry if it is but I keep wondering if this could be someone who is a nice family man who was maybe a father to one of their friends. Someone who they trusted because they always seen him being a good father and was friendly with them.. Someone we all normally would never think to do a crime like this but seen the girls and no one around and seen an opportunity ~Maybe who worked night so didn't have to worry about being somewhere during the day or maybe out on a meeting that day or even out for lunch and could easily come up with an excuse for not coming back to work that day or wasn't expected back. He could have even used the excuse that he heard about the girls and was going to help search for them because the girls were someone his daughter/son knew. The girls might be more willing to get into a car with someone like that. He could have easily used an excuse to get them in the car/van. Maybe something like he was going to go buy his son/daughter a puppy and if they could help pick one out for him. I think the girls might be more than willing to go.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Okay, so maybe this is crazy thought....but what if LE could put out a bulletin on 'where were you that day? what do you remember?"...

Meaning: we all know where we were on Sept 11th, as an example...

But at least for me, I have no idea what else was going on the day the girls disappeared...

So maybe something like "on this day that was warm and drizzly, and the Cornhuskers (shoot that might be Nebraska?) were about to face team XYZ, and whatever else local or national, that was current that day"....can maybe refresh peoples memories about what was noticeably out of place or unusual...

Just maybe a different way to refresh peoples memories?

I think you have a brilliant idea there!

The Cornhuskers are Nebraska and it isn't until fall that they annually rampage over my beloved Hawkeyes and pick the remnants out of their cleats. Most people in the Waterloo/Cedar Falls area are probably Panther (University of Northern Iowa, located in Cedar Falls) fans.

 

[Bootsctr]

My thinking might be TOTALLY silly so I'm sorry if it is but I keep wondering if this could be someone who is a nice family man who was maybe a father to one of their friends. Someone who they trusted because they always seen him being a good father and was friendly with them.. Someone we all normally would never think to do a crime like this but seen the girls and no one around and seen an opportunity ~Maybe who worked night so didn't have to worry about being somewhere during the day or maybe out on a meeting that day or even out for lunch and could easily come up with an excuse for not coming back to work that day or wasn't expected back. He could have even used the excuse that he heard about the girls and was going to help search for them because the girls were someone his daughter/son knew. The girls might be more willing to get into a car with someone like that. He could have easily used an excuse to get them in the car/van. Maybe something like he was going to go buy his son/daughter a puppy and if they could help pick one out for him. I think the girls might be more than willing to go.

I don't think your thinking is silly at all Zoe Zo! That seems like a very likely scenario too albeit a very scary one because it true, this "good father" is still out there.

 

[Bootsctr]

Interesting discussion last night! Thanks for everyone's fresh look at old information. This is where I'm at today ...

I think that's one of the problems we've been tripping over since this first happened. It makes no sense that the girls took off when they knew they were supposed to stay home. Instead, we are to believe that they rode like the wind to the lake, without permission, parked their bikes at the drainage gate for no reason (except to get themselves in more trouble), and that while they were there, they all of a sudden met a very bad person. That simply doesn't make sense.

For the above to make sense, we have to introduce something new: they must have been lured. Then, we try to wrap our heads around luring ... and that brings us back to Brovan - they must have been lured there, someone on Broven must have told them to ride to the lake. That doesn't work. It doesn't make sense that a stranger or someone they knew told them to ride to the park, and that they would do this without checking in with their grandmother.

That brings us back to what Wylma said from the beginning: someone grabbed them on their bikes between home and Maiden Lane (possibly at the corner of Brovan and River Forest Road), and ditched their bikes at Maiden Lane. Why Maiden Lane? ... because that is most likely where he was going to take one victim. It would have taken a while before anyone looked in that location for one missing child if the bikes had not been found there.

Although part of this may have been planned, another part had to be improvised if the perp planned to abduct a child, any child, that day, and he happened to get two.

I agree totally otto! I enjoyed everyone's conversation last night, especially the ideas between you and MarilynPA. You are most convincing in that someone likely grabbed them on their bikes between home and Maiden Lane. Two children threw a kink in his plan, and even though Maiden Lane was secluded, it was not as secluded as 7-Bridges. For some reason, I think he had a gun (not that it could not have been a really big hunting knife). If this perp had the wherewithal to plan this out to a T and the whole lake scene was staged, then I think the abduction was for reasons other than sexual. I don't think the bikes were taken to 7-Bridges and put with the bodies because perp definitely would have to have touched the bikes and plus if the area was visited by people having kegger parties a light might have reflected off the bikes and the bodies would have been discovered sooner. It would be nice to know that some prints had been gotten from the bikes and the purse. Something solid.

 

[Bootsctr]

I've got to go for a while, but can someone refresh my memory as to why the FBI was brought in? Did it have to do with the family situation? I apologize, I cannot remember. BBL.

 

[Zoe Zo]

I don't think your thinking is silly at all Zoe Zo! That seems like a very likely scenario too albeit a very scary one because it true, this "good father" is still out there.

Thank you, Bootsctr

I would think if this is the case - this person would be harder to find as no one would ever think about checking into someone like this.

Also wonder wouldn't the police also be checking stores or street cameras in the area to check what cars or vans that were in the area that day?? I know we seen the one with the girls riding their bikes but maybe one could also show who was also in the area and who took the girls.

 

[chelsea6]

Does anyone else notice they have increased the amounts of "Call the Crimestopper Hotline if you have any information?" :waitasec:

Could it be they already have a reasonable assertion as to who did this and are just waiting for the DNA results to come back? (They may be gathering as many testimonies and evidence during this short span of time they have left in order to make an arrest leading to a conviction. This may also explain why they aren't giving out any info)

 

[otto]

A good handler can tell within 3 feet or so if the dog is tracking vs casting. Ten to fifteen feet would be simple to tell the difference between tracking and casting.

I'm assuming that Breault was giving out as little evidence as possible. To me, tracking them to the water could mean tracking them in the gate and to the water's edge, a matter of 10-15 feet as you noted.

Or it could mean tracking them down the bike trail and then over to the water's edge at the end of the fence between the bike trail and the water.

Or, given the FBI's record in this case, it could mean nothing at all.

The end of the fence goes way past where the lake ends (see below), so tracking to the water via the trail means tracking 400 feet along the trail, into the trees and then doubling back to the water. I'm assuming that 'tracking to the water, where the bikes were', means 10-15 feet from the bikes.

Water near the bikes

 

[otto]

But when Grandma Wylma departed, she left Drew in charge of the children. That is who was with the children when she picked up Aunt TB in Waterloo and they got the call that the girls still hadn't showed up.

If Drew was the parent more likely to say yes when presented with a fait accompli, then the girls may have been pushing the envelope a little, hoping they could spend more time together.

I'm not putting Drew down. Between every pair of parents, there is always one who is ore likely to say yes and the kids usually know darn well which one that is.

I may be biased because in my family, it was Daddy who said yes. <LOL>

Wasn't Lyric's oldest brother going to watch the children when Wilma left for her appointment? Surely the children knew that they all had to be home when Wylma left ... surely the girls knew that they would be in trouble if they took off shortly before Wylma had to leave. Furthermore, if they had a plan to ride to the lake, why didn't they go straight there? Why did they instead ride around the parking lot, then past the house heading in the wrong direction to supposedly go to the lake and then vanish?

 

[otto]

SBM

Respectfully, I do not think draining the lake delayed the investigation one jot. Dragging the lake probably did but that was one single day.

When the lake was drained, they had one police officer standing sentry duty to keep people away. The people in kayaks who were photographed were volunteer firefighters, who would not have been participating in the investigation anyway.

The FBI sent divers and side-scan sonar equipment but again, none of those resources would have been used otherwise.

Chief Deputy Abben made it clear that while the lake was being drained, they were continuing the investigation into other possibilities. Because as he said himself that Monday, LE was close to 100% sure the girls were not in the lake after it had been dragged. Draining the lake was done because it could be done and to get to 100% certainty.

It doesn't mean that the 140 or so LE officers who were working the case in that first week were just sitting around playing checkers.

Draining the lake bought the perp time ... at least another week of time ... since the investigation was focused in entirely the wrong location ... simply because the bikes were at the lake. Police had no evidence and nothing to pursue. They were investigating, but it meant check stops around the lake, talking to family and doing whatever they do when they don't have a clue.

 

[otto]

My thinking might be TOTALLY silly so I'm sorry if it is but I keep wondering if this could be someone who is a nice family man who was maybe a father to one of their friends. Someone who they trusted because they always seen him being a good father and was friendly with them.. Someone we all normally would never think to do a crime like this but seen the girls and no one around and seen an opportunity ~Maybe who worked night so didn't have to worry about being somewhere during the day or maybe out on a meeting that day or even out for lunch and could easily come up with an excuse for not coming back to work that day or wasn't expected back. He could have even used the excuse that he heard about the girls and was going to help search for them because the girls were someone his daughter/son knew. The girls might be more willing to get into a car with someone like that. He could have easily used an excuse to get them in the car/van. Maybe something like he was going to go buy his son/daughter a puppy and if they could help pick one out for him. I think the girls might be more than willing to go.

Let's suppose that they encountered someone familiar. Why would they either go with this person, or follow this person's instructions to ride their bikes a mile away? They were within a block of home when they were last seen, so if someone told them to get in a vehicle, or ride to the lake, it would only take a moment to check in with Wylma. I just don't see two girls, 8 and 10, deciding to blow off everything and run off with someone they may have seen in the past.

 

[ShyViolet]

If Elizabeth's mother is to be believed, then Elizabeth was at home eating ice cream with her mother each evening after the two youngest were in bed. That pretty much contradicts any claims that she was riding her bike and chatting with strangers more than a mile away each night.

They had just poured juice glasses and left them on the counter. They were told not to go to far because Wylma had an appointment. They were seen riding in the loop, first towards the old post office (parking lot across Sipple), then back past the house towards the Cornbelt Auction. That would have been around 12:15. They didn't come back past the house ... and she became worried. I really doubt that they then took a 30 minute ride to the lake.

BBM. Isn't it possible that both Mr C and Heather are being truthful?

If the family finished their evening meal by 6 pm, and the wee ones went to bed at 8 or 9, that would leave plenty of time for Liz to be out biking and chatting then home in time for ice cream. It takes less than 10 minutes to bike a mile.

 

[otto]

BBM. Isn't it possible that both Mr C and Heather are being truthful?

If the family finished their evening meal by 6 pm, and the wee ones went to bed at 8 or 9, that would leave plenty of time for Liz to be out biking and chatting then home in time for ice cream. It takes less than 10 minutes to bike a mile.

Heather has a heart condition and had four children. Would she really let a 4 year old stay up until 8 or 9? I would be surprised if the young children were up that late ... it would result in very cranky, fussy children ... and who needs that with a heart condition. 4 year olds should be in bed at 7 PM if they're going to be pleasant throughout the day.

One of our posters biked from Maiden Lane to the shopping center in 10 minutes. Elizabeth on a BMX bike would have needed more time. Let's say 12 minutes one way. The child seen by the lawn watering man stopped to visit with people on the street every night. This isn't a 10 minute bike ride, this is more like a 25 minute round trip bike ride plus the time needed to visit. I find it hard to believe that Elizabeth would take off every evening for 30-40 minutes and her parents knew nothing about what she was doing ... the Collin's family strikes me as having more control over their children.

 

[carbuff]

Elizabeth's brother is actually 4 years older than Elizabeth (12 vs 8). But to me, that suggests that Elizabeth could have been the tagalong little sister who was going further than her parents realised by following her big brother around.

How do we know Grandma Wylma would have been pissed off? The time Lyric disappeared with her cousin, it was Misty and Dan that got upset. Kids know which grownup is likely to react which way. If Grandma Wylma was easy going, they may not have feared her reaction.

And I agree with the other WS poster (sorry I can't recall your name) that most kids have an elastic sense of time. They're not particularly good at predicting how long a given tempting activity will take and they're very good at rationalising "oh we can do this and still be back in time." Heck, that describes my own husband! I've learned to laugh and say he's living in his own time zone.

Also, having heard that Elizabeth and Lyric typically wanted to spend the night together after bickering with each other all day, it makes me wonder if the two girls were hoping that if they weren't around when Grandma Wylma left, they could then spend the afternoon together and maybe even the night.

Particularly if they knew that the parent who would be home that afternoon was the easier going parent or the parent more likely to say yes.

That was me, speaking from my own childhood experiences and all the places my mother didn't know I was going. And you're right, my friends and I often pulled a ploy like that to get to spend more time together. Sometimes it even worked.

I can also see the "two bored girls in the summer" scenario. What do you want to do? I don't know, what do you want to do? Ride around the block. I don't want to ride around the block again! Then let's go somewhere else. There's nowhere else to go and besides we have to be home for Grandma. I know, we could go see if xxxx is home, and if she is we'll just call from there. Mom won't mind.

I mean, this is a small, safe town we're talking about. Kids get a lot of freedom. The odds of somebody getting hit by lightning twice on the sidewalk in front of the house must have been higher than of two girls getting abducted while riding their bikes around on a lazy summer afternoon.

 

[otto]

That was me, speaking from my own childhood experiences and all the places my mother didn't know I was going. And you're right, my friends and I often pulled a ploy like that to get to spend more time together. Sometimes it even worked.

I can also see the "two bored girls in the summer" scenario. What do you want to do? I don't know, what do you want to do? Ride around the block. I don't want to ride around the block again! Then let's go somewhere else. There's nowhere else to go and besides we have to be home for Grandma. I know, we could go see if xxxx is home, and if she is we'll just call from there. Mom won't mind.

I mean, this is a small, safe town we're talking about. Kids get a lot of freedom. The odds of somebody getting hit by lightning twice on the sidewalk in front of the house must have been higher than of two girls getting abducted while riding their bikes around on a lazy summer afternoon.

Alarm bells went off for Heather right away. It was just over an hour later that she was at the police station. That suggests to me that it was not normal for Elizabeth to take off and let her mother worry.

 

[carbuff]

Alarm bells went off for Heather right away. It was just over an hour later that she was at the police station. That suggests to me that it was not normal for Elizabeth to take off and let her mother worry.

From her point of view that's true. I was talking from the girls' point of view. Kids often don't understand what the parents are worried about.

 

[otto]

I think what is happening here, a bit, is that we're looking at the fact that Lyric's parents were drug addicts that spent time in jail and who did not have primary care of their daughter. We know that Lyric was being raised by her grandmother. From here, maybe it's easier to think that Lyric was generally unsupervised, or that it was more likely for her to push the boundaries. That may well have been true of Lyric, but Elizabeth was in a completely different situation. She was living with two solid parents and three siblings. She had a normal life, attending church, going on family vacations, enjoying a happy childhood. A major factor that would influence her decisions to behave, or to do the ooposite of what was expected of her, would be her mother's health (I think). There is no reason to think that she would completely misbehave when her mother is at the doctor and her grandmother has to leave soon. I think we might be vulnerable to projecting assumptions about Lyric (based on her parent's history) onto Elizabeth ... but if we don't do that, if we see Elizabeth as a responsible young girl that wanted to make her parents and grandmother happy, there's no reason to assume that she would simply take off for a 30 minute, two mile bike ride without telling anyone what she was doing.

 

[iamnotagolem]

How do we know Grandma Wylma would have been pissed off? The time Lyric disappeared with her cousin, it was Misty and Dan that got upset. Kids know which grownup is likely to react which way. If Grandma Wylma was easy going, they may not have feared her reaction.

And I agree with the other WS poster (sorry I can't recall your name) that most kids have an elastic sense of time. They're not particularly good at predicting how long a given tempting activity will take and they're very good at rationalising "oh we can do this and still be back in time." Heck, that describes my own husband! I've learned to laugh and say he's living in his own time zone.

Also, having heard that Elizabeth and Lyric typically wanted to spend the night together after bickering with each other all day, it makes me wonder if the two girls were hoping that if they weren't around when Grandma Wylma left, they could then spend the afternoon together and maybe even the night.

Particularly if they knew that the parent who would be home that afternoon was the easier going parent or the parent more likely to say yes.

I do think Grandma was quite unhappy when the girls were late. In one of the video interviews she said she called Heather and Misty then told then to "go find your kids". I'd say she was pissed at first. Grandma and Tammy went about their way with their plans. It wasn't until later that they returned to help search and became concerned.

 

[ShyViolet]

Heather has a heart condition and had four children. Would she really let a 4 year old stay up until 8 or 9? I would be surprised if the young children were up that late ... it would result in very cranky, fussy children ... and who needs that with a heart condition. 4 year olds should be in bed at 7 PM if they're going to be pleasant throughout the day.

One of our posters biked from Maiden Lane to the shopping center in 10 minutes. Elizabeth on a BMX bike would have needed more time. Let's say 12 minutes one way. The child seen by the lawn watering man stopped to visit with people on the street every night. This isn't a 10 minute bike ride, this is more like a 25 minute round trip bike ride plus the time needed to visit. I find it hard to believe that Elizabeth would take off every evening for 30-40 minutes and her parents knew nothing about what she was doing ... the Collin's family strikes me as having more control over their children.

Speculation aside, in the interview with Ron Steele, at about the 8:30 mark, Heather specifically states the time they had ice cream as between "9, 9:30 every night".

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20330710/...mera-for-first-time-since-discovery-of-bodies

When my kids were that age, and younger, they had bmx bikes and would sometimes accompany me when I went jogging. I ran 10 minute miles and my kids constantly needed to stop to wait for me to catch up. Heather also said in an earlier interview that was possible that Liz could have been riding that far without their knowledge. Will see if I can find a link.

ETA link: http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_22c6bcca-d752-11e1-8622-0019bb2963f4.html

Around the 9:50 mark. For the record, I don't believe this makes them bad parents, or Liz a naughty child. I think it is entirely possible they felt very safe within their community. I think it is possible Lizzie may have stretched the boundaries, perhaps by tagging along with her older brother, without even realizing it.

 

[otto]

Speculation aside, in the interview with Ron Steele, at about the 8:30 mark, Heather specifically states the time they had ice cream as between "9, 9:30 every night".

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20330710/...mera-for-first-time-since-discovery-of-bodies

When my kids were that age, and younger, they had bmx bikes and would sometimes accompany me when I went jogging. I ran 10 minute miles and my kids constantly needed to stop to wait for me to catch up. Heather also said in an earlier interview that is was possible that Liz could have been riding that far without their knowledge. Will see if I can find a link.

Thanks for the ice cream time!

We looked at cycling speeds of 8 year old children a few months ago (approx 9 mph +/- 2.5 mph). Also, one of our posters biked from near the lake to the shopping center via the bike trail (10 minute ride). 10 minutes is probably the minimum time it takes to cycle from the camera location to the remote location on the other side of the lake.

If we're looking at the possibility that Elizabeth rode her bike to the lake each evening, then we have to look at the round trip time plus the time required to stop and visit with people on Lake Avenue. Furthermore, why would we assume that if Elizabeth did this, she only stopped to visit with strangers on Lake Avenue? Wouldn't she have stopped to visit with strangers on every street between home and the lake? That's no longer a 10 minute bike trip ... that's a minimum of 25-30 minutes just to make the round trip and visit with the Lake Avenue people.

cycling speed reference: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1067763/?page=1