IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #27

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I was under the impression that sex starts in the brain. Chemical castration may help curb abuse. But If an offender wants to offend he doesn't have to use his penis to do so.
As far as I know you can't castrate a woman. MOO

I just read you can castrate a woman.

Chemical castration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Correcting myself again.. so as long as the drug is administered it can help curb the urge..What happens when the drugs are stopped?


BBM...

Exactly! Once a person has paid their debt to society, they are free and you cannot force someone to take medication if they don't want to. As a psychologist friend told me, "everyone has a right to be crazy if they want to."

ETA: Excellent link with lots of information.

Objections - Although chemical castration is presented as a humane alternative to lifelong imprisonment or surgical castration, the American Civil Liberties Union opposes the coerced administration of any drug, including antiandrogen drugs for sex offenders. They argue that forced chemical castration is a "cruel and unusual punishment", and therefore should be constitutionally prohibited by the Eighth Amendment. They also stated that it interfered with the right to procreate, and could expose users to various health problems.[4] Law professor John Stinneford has argued that chemical castration, by exerting control over the mind of sex offenders to render them incapable of sexual desire, and subjecting them to the physical changes caused by the female hormones used, is a cruel and unusual punishment.[10]

It has also been argued that, based on the Fourteenth Amendment, the procedure fails to guarantee equal protection - although the laws mandating the treatment do so without respect to gender, the actual effect of the procedure falls disproportionately upon men.[5] In the case of voluntary statutes, the ability to give informed consent is also an issue; in 1984, the U.S. state of Michigan's court of appeals held that mandating chemical castration as a condition of probation was unlawful, on the grounds that the drug medroxyprogesterone acetate had not yet gained acceptance as being safe and reliable and also due to the difficulty of obtaining informed consent under these circumstances.[5]

History and use by region The first use of chemical castration occurred in 1944, when diethylstilbestrol was used with the purpose of lowering men's testosterone.[5] Chemical castration is often seen as an easier alternative to life imprisonment or the death penalty, allowing the release of sex offenders while reducing or eliminating the chance that they reoffend.[12]

[edit] United States California was the first U.S. state to specify the use of chemical castration as a punishment for child molestation, following the passage of a modification to Section 645 of the California penal code in 1996.[13][14] This law stipulates that anyone convicted of child molestation with a minor under 13 years of age may be treated with Depo Provera if they are on parole and it is their second offense and that offenders may not reject the treatment.[13][14][15][16]

The passage of this law led to similar laws in other states, such as Florida's Statute Section 794.0235 which was passed into law in 1997.[17] As in California, treatment is mandatory after a second offense.

Besides California and Florida, at least seven other states, including Georgia, Iowa, Louisiana, Montana, Oregon, Texas and Wisconsin, have experimented with chemical castration.[5] In Iowa, as in California and Florida, offenders may be sentenced to chemical castration in all cases involving serious sex offenses. On June 25, 2008, following a Supreme Court ruling (Kennedy Vs. Louisiana) that the execution of child rapists where the victim was not killed was unconstitutional,[18] Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal signed Senate Bill 144, allowing Louisiana judges to sentence convicted rapists to chemical castration.[4][19][20]
 
While my heart agrees, my head tells me we can't. It's just not possible to group all RSOs into one group. First, not all child molesters have a pee pee to cut off. We know women can be sex offenders too. Yes, they could be sterilized but as a civilized society, the line has to be drawn somewhere. We have men that are RSOs simply because they had consensual sex with their underage girlfriend, parents find out, get angry, file charges, the guy is convicted as a RSO, but he's not a sex offender in my opinion. By law, yes. In truth, no, he's not a child molester. That's a big problem. I haven't researched, but is there a study that tells us how likely/can predict if a child molester gets caught, is prosecuted and pays their debt to society if they will molest another child? My heart tells me yes if they are allowed to be around children again.

Thank you for a very thoughtful post.

There are no good statistics on recidivism amongst child molesters. There are studies but the numbers are all over the board.

Part of the problem is that no one knows how common pedophilia is in the population. How many pedophiles are there out there who have never acted on their urges? There is such a huge stigma around it that no one in their right mind who does successfully maintain control over themselves would admit to anyone that they do have pedophiliac urges.

Why does this matter? For one thing, it would give context to treatment. What if 10% of all people had pedophiliac urges but only 0.000000001% ever act on them? If that were so, it would suggest that the problem is not about having pedophilia, the problem is about impulse control or about wanting control over other human beings or whatever.
 
While my heart agrees, my head tells me we can't. It's just not possible to group all RSOs into one group. First, not all child molesters have a pee pee to cut off. We know women can be sex offenders too. Yes, they could be sterilized but as a civilized society, the line has to be drawn somewhere. We have men that are RSOs simply because they had consensual sex with their underage girlfriend, parents find out, get angry, file charges, the guy is convicted as a RSO, but he's not a sex offender in my opinion. By law, yes. In truth, no, he's not a child molester. That's a big problem. I haven't researched, but is there a study that tells us how likely/can predict if a child molester gets caught, is prosecuted and pays their debt to society if they will molest another child? My heart tells me yes if they are allowed to be around children again.

I am straight..I don't understand homosexuality, I don't understand pedophilia, but in the first... are two consensual adults. Children cannot consent....period. Maybe the pedo is just "different"---same with psychopaths. I can have compassion if their physiological make-up is different, but when it harms others then I see nothing wrong with them being medicated and therapy for prevention..if it really works. Otherwise keep them locked up...... away from society. The fine line is making sure....without a doubt, they committed the crime. IMO
 
I had never seen this article that was posted earlier.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20025811/special-report

SBM

Gerard Meyers, Special Agent in Charge of the Crime Against Children's Task Force, has been a part of the investigation since the beginning.

"There was some information that we found on the computers but I'm not at liberty to speak to that. It was definitely a successful result, but it wasn't a smoking gun or we would have the case closed. But it's definitely resulted in a significant number of leads," Meyers said.

I wonder who's computer these "significant number of leads" were found on...and whose use on said computer gave them a lead. :waitasec:

Even moreso THIS:
The main focus of the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation's Crime Against Children's Task Force is investigating digital communication between children and potential abductors.

The point of bringing them in was to look into communication between one of the girls and an abductor? Or are these people brought in to investigate the computers in general when a child is missing?

If they were brought in AFTER the computers were taken from the families I wonder if they had a lead from one of the girls and a potential perp? I can't see the original date of the article...this was updated in Nov.

:yourock: :gthanks: :goodpost:

Wow~! You are an amazing :websleuther: Great questions! I know I have seen posters wondering if Lyric had contact from a potential perp from her FB account. This article definitely brings legitimacy to that question. Maybe there is a local :detective: that can answer those questions.

I also found this interesting:

Preventingabuse.org Founder and President Tony Nassif says the problem of child trafficking is real, and it's here in Iowa. For fifteen years he's taken his message across the country.

"It's a business, human trafficking, sexual exploitation of women and children, men for that matter. It's the second largest money maker in the world next to illegal drugs," Nassif said. "We always think of human trafficking in third world countries, or an abduction somewhere else but it's here in the U.S. Florida is a hot spot but Iowa has had its problems."

The mention of Florida reminded me of Somer Thompson's murder and her perp, Jarred Harrell. This guy had *advertiser censored* on his computer. He also had family connections
 
I had never seen this article that was posted earlier.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20025811/special-report

SBM

Gerard Meyers, Special Agent in Charge of the Crime Against Children's Task Force, has been a part of the investigation since the beginning.

"There was some information that we found on the computers but I'm not at liberty to speak to that. It was definitely a successful result, but it wasn't a smoking gun or we would have the case closed. But it's definitely resulted in a significant number of leads," Meyers said.

I wonder who's computer these "significant number of leads" were found on...and whose use on said computer gave them a lead. :waitasec:

Even moreso THIS:
The main focus of the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation's Crime Against Children's Task Force is investigating digital communication between children and potential abductors.

The point of bringing them in was to look into communication between one of the girls and an abductor? Or are these people brought in to investigate the computers in general when a child is missing?

If they were brought in AFTER the computers were taken from the families I wonder if they had a lead from one of the girls and a potential perp? I can't see the original date of the article...this was updated in Nov.

I had never seen this article before either. TY We have discussed this possibility at great lengths. I would love to know whose computer they found that on and if the connection was someone in the family's inner circle of friends or acquaintances.
 
:yourock: :gthanks: :goodpost:

Wow~! You are an amazing :websleuther: Great questions! I know I have seen posters wondering if Lyric had contact from a potential perp from her FB account. This article definitely brings legitimacy to that question. Maybe there is a local :detective: that can answer those questions.

I also found this interesting:



The mention of Florida reminded me of Somer Thompson's murder and her perp, Jarred Harrell. This guy had *advertiser censored* on his computer. He also had family connections

The thing with computers is there are SO many factors that could come into play as to who either of the girls could have potentially been communicating with.

I don't know for certain whether or not every computer between the two families were all turned over, but I know someone in Lyric's family had mentioned handing over computers somewhere along the way. Did Heather and Drew also turn over computers? I don't remember, nor do I have a link stating they did.

I have hope that LE would try to gather any computers that either of these girls would even POSSIBLY have access to. Maybe even including ones that were at a relative/friends house if these investigators found a lead.
 
Here is an article from the Guardian, a U.K. newspaper which I think is one of the finest newspapers in print today. It discusses the issue of chemical castration of pedophiles:

What is the evidence that such programmes work? Where has the treatment been used before? Does hormone suppression really amount to "chemical castration"? And are sex offences really about libido, or violence?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/...mar/13/prisons-and-probation-criminal-justice
 
While my heart agrees, my head tells me we can't. It's just not possible to group all RSOs into one group. First, not all child molesters have a pee pee to cut off. We know women can be sex offenders too. Yes, they could be sterilized but as a civilized society, the line has to be drawn somewhere. We have men that are RSOs simply because they had consensual sex with their underage girlfriend, parents find out, get angry, file charges, the guy is convicted as a RSO, but he's not a sex offender in my opinion. By law, yes. In truth, no, he's not a child molester. That's a big problem. I haven't researched, but is there a study that tells us how likely/can predict if a child molester gets caught, is prosecuted and pays their debt to society if they will molest another child? My heart tells me yes if they are allowed to be around children again.

Pee pee :blushing::floorlaugh:
 
Here is an article from the Guardian, a U.K. newspaper which I think is one of the finest newspapers in print today. It discusses the issue of chemical castration of pedophiles:

What is the evidence that such programmes work? Where has the treatment been used before? Does hormone suppression really amount to "chemical castration"? And are sex offences really about libido, or violence?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/...mar/13/prisons-and-probation-criminal-justice

JMO, it's sexual, because sexual harm has been done. All violent offenders are not pedos or rapists. However, it does make we wonder if the propensity in victimization grows in a psychological sense based on a profile of entitlement and no general respect of others..along with not getting caught..and persuing the next level? Is it a sliver of some kind of psychopathic behavior? Just an example, ie: bullies and theives.

From the articles posted and linked to by others, the percentage of stopping the urges is quite successful, and with the small percentage of failure, there may be other psychological factors that come into play. Are they potential serial child killers that haven't reached that stage yet. ??

Criminality is as complicated and diverse as the human population it's born from isn't it? :banghead:
 
Here is an article from the Guardian, a U.K. newspaper which I think is one of the finest newspapers in print today. It discusses the issue of chemical castration of pedophiles:

What is the evidence that such programmes work? Where has the treatment been used before? Does hormone suppression really amount to "chemical castration"? And are sex offences really about libido, or violence?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/...mar/13/prisons-and-probation-criminal-justice

Thank you for the link, it is very thought provoking.

One thought occurs to me: in the Danish study (and many of the other studies cited), all participants are voluntary. I wonder if the same results would happen with involuntary participants (via court order or heavy coercion as in the shameful Alan Turing case).

I suspect that voluntary, uncoerced participation might be one way of selecting for offenders that are highly motivated to change. In other areas of behaviour modification such as weight loss or substance abuse control, the most motivated individuals are the ones who are most likely to succeed.

In other words, involuntary chemical castration may not work because offenders who are forced into it may be more likely to fail than those offenders who go into such treatment voluntarily.
 
Pee pee :blushing::floorlaugh:


Why am I still LMAO everytime I read that???? Can we use that name as a substitute for the person some of us think did this, so we can finally discuss him??? :woohoo: :giggle: :floorlaugh:
 
Hmmm...evidently linking more than once to the Waterloo Courier won't let you look unless you subscribe ? Seems a recent change, but OK...

The limit is 10 per month, I believe. Just delete all of your wcfcourier cookies.
 
The limit is 10 per month, I believe. Just delete all of your wcfcourier cookies.

I wanted to respond to a post you made a while back, but by the time I had time, I couldn't remember where it was. You mentioned that you cycled the Evansdale Nature Trail after the children vanished and that you did not see crime scene tape. Ollipop, who also lives in the area, posted that he saw crime scene tape in the area on the morning after the children vanished.

Did you ride the trail the evening of July 13 and the morning of July 14, or the morning of July 14 and the evening of July 14?
 
He was involved with a 13 year old in 1981. He believed that the girl was older because she had history. He pleaded guilty in exchange for having drug charges dropped.

http://newspaperarchive.com/waterloo-courier/1981-12-07

Hmmm...evidently linking more than once to the Waterloo Courier won't let you look unless you subscribe ? Seems a recent change, but OK...

The link isn't to the Courier. It's to newspaperarchivedotcom, an archive of newspapers around the world. You must have a paid membership to view an unlimited number of newspapers.
 
The link isn't to the Courier. It's to newspaperarchivedotcom, an archive of newspapers around the world. You must have a paid membership to view an unlimited number of newspapers.

Is the page not viewable? If not, I can post a screen shot.
 
I wanted to respond to a post you made a while back, but by the time I had time, I couldn't remember where it was. You mentioned that you cycled the Evansdale Nature Trail after the children vanished and that you did not see crime scene tape. Ollipop, who also lives in the area, posted that he saw crime scene tape in the area on the morning after the children vanished.

Did you ride the trail the evening of July 13 and the morning of July 14, or the morning of July 14 and the evening of July 14?

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_18411a90-cd32-11e1-a656-0019bb2963f4.html

It looks like (according to this article under the pic of Mr. G) that different sections of the lake were taped off at different times throughout the first few days after they went missing.

Earlier authorities had only marked off sections of the biking and hiking trail around the lake, where bicycles belonging to Elizabeth Collins, 8, and Lyric

It sounds to me like the trail section was taped off right after the girls bikes were found (not sure when it came down) but it also states they taped off a larger section of the lake on Tuesday as well (of shoreline)

Tuesday - EVANSDALE, Iowa --- Authorities taped off a larger section around the shoreline of Meyers Lake this morning

In the picture of Mr. G it doesn't look like the trail section is even taped off and that pic is from Monday. I'm not sure what section of the trail this is taken, but it doesn't look (to me) like the trail is taped off as of Monday.:waitasec:
 
Thank you for the link, it is very thought provoking.

One thought occurs to me: in the Danish study (and many of the other studies cited), all participants are voluntary. I wonder if the same results would happen with involuntary participants (via court order or heavy coercion as in the shameful Alan Turing case).

I suspect that voluntary, uncoerced participation might be one way of selecting for offenders that are highly motivated to change. In other areas of behaviour modification such as weight loss or substance abuse control, the most motivated individuals are the ones who are most likely to succeed.

In other words, involuntary chemical castration may not work because offenders who are forced into it may be more likely to fail than those offenders who go into such treatment voluntarily.

I would think the majority would respond to the medication...forced or voluntary. That's out of their hands, and the meds do what they are suppose to do in most cases by suppressing all sexual desire. So what about those who still partake again? Is it just their physical make up not responding to the meds or are there other very deep seated psychological issues in the perp wanting to just harm children? Quenching their sexual lust vs another mental issue? It would be interesting to know what their own reasoning was for their failure. What throws a kink in all this for me is the fact most child molesters are married and in sexual relaltionships with an adult.?? So what does that say? Are they just over-sexed, wanting the issue of control or what?? I need to think about this more...........:banghead: Seems we always get stats, but the whys are always left out.
 
http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_18411a90-cd32-11e1-a656-0019bb2963f4.html

It looks like (according to this article under the pic of Mr. G) that different sections of the lake were taped off at different times throughout the first few days after they went missing.

Earlier authorities had only marked off sections of the biking and hiking trail around the lake, where bicycles belonging to Elizabeth Collins, 8, and Lyric

It sounds to me like the trail section was taped off right after the girls bikes were found (not sure when it came down) but it also states they taped off a larger section of the lake on Tuesday as well (of shoreline)

Tuesday - EVANSDALE, Iowa --- Authorities taped off a larger section around the shoreline of Meyers Lake this morning

In the picture of Mr. G it doesn't look like the trail section is even taped off and that pic is from Monday. I'm not sure what section of the trail this is taken, but it doesn't look (to me) like the trail is taped off as of Monday.:waitasec:

When I looked into media reports last week, I understood that the area around the gate, where the bikes were found, was taped off right away, and that on Monday, when the lake draining began, larger parts of the lake shore were taped off. I think the cyclist is about 400 feet East of the gate in the photo where he was talking to police. There may not have been any crime tape in that area at any time.

I have heard both that the area was taped off on the evening of July 13 and that it wasn't taped off until the following morning ... so I'm curious about what is true regarding when it was first taped off as a crime scene.
 
Otto, how do you do screen shots? I'm still without that knowledge. :( TIA
 
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