General Discussion Thread #2

[Xavier]

I have significant doubts about the bat being used, Botha was asked if there were any other injuries under oath (that is perjury under any legal system and is a serious charge

)

the autospsy had been done prior to the bail hearing and the defence would most likely have had a copy

if OP had bashed her with bat then he would surely have told his lawyers, and the affidavit would not have gone into details, he was not required at the bail hearing to provide many details about the event, all he had to do was show he was not a threat to the public or violent or a flight risk

why would her father say if OP story is true we may be able to forgive him if he has been told OP bashed his daughters head in

why would an experienced prosecutor not tell the Judge the fact that would have meant OP was denied bail

if he did hit her with bat then states case is proven, I wait to see if this is further speculation or fact

plus Botha said he attended autopsy which makes his lie under oath even more serious

Hey Joe -- Can we really beleive Botha had his full undivided attention to details in this OP case, when he knew shortly he himself had a murder charge to deal with

Just saying, I doubt Botha was paying attention to the OP case details, when he had to fight for his own life now

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/21/world/africa/south-africa-pistorius-case

 

[shane13]

Hey Joe -- Can we really beleive Botha had his full undivided attention to details in this OP case, when he knew shortly he himself had a murder charge to deal with

Just saying, I doubt Botha was paying attention to the OP case details, when he had to fight for his own life now

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/21/world/africa/south-africa-pistorius-case

Precisely.
And I have tried to tell people here since I started to look more deeply at this.
The top brass knew about Botha's attempted murder charge and the reinstatement of it.

1. As soon as the local police station knew the person in custody for likely #6 homicide, was OP, the top brass should have pulled Botha BEFORE the bail hearing started. But they didn't.

2. Likewise when bail hearing started I recall hearing people say those charged with #6 murder rarely get bail in SA. But despite numerous other events that showed a pattern of reckless endangerment, he got bail.

3. Botha--with his statements on the height AND angle of shots into the toilet door--refuted OP's affidavit statements. yet when Roux asked him, he contradicted himself and said there was nothing in the evidence to contradict OP's affidavit.

And I have not gone over all of the bail hearing to look for other strangeness.

I think there is far more going on here behind the scenes, than the superficial level readily seen.

Be ready for anything as far as what the final verdict will be...

A word to the wise.

 

[Xavier]

Like much of OP's story, the whole cricket bat thing perplexes me. First, how many people keep a cricket bat in their bedroom?

It seems odd that is was so handy. Second, how many people open locked bathroom doors with a cricket bat? It has been my experience that most people just use a wire hanger. Heck, we used to keep one in our linen closet for the inevitable times that a kid would accidentally lock the bathroom door upon leaving.

OP may have very well started beating on the door first, and then resorted to the gun to assuage his anger. The bludgeon and the excessive shots fired speak rage, not fear, to me. Speculation and MOO, of course.

GXM - Back in the day I was a pretty good athlete, I went to the Ohio state swimming championships in high school and played alot of tourney tennis too...I was a football and baseball fan and kept baseball bats I collected from the Cincinnati Reds, memorabilia stuff

Alot of sports jocks have stuff, like bats in their home....just my opinion mate

 

[Xavier]

SYRA-- Actually my mom kept our dad's revolvers locked up and later gave them to our uncle, she didnt want guns in our home with her 8 kids running around...LOL

Dad was a fairly high level FBI supervisor in the 1950's and kept his guns purely for memorabilia sake..Once he left NY City, he was done with law enforcement, never touched a gun after retiring from the Bureau

Actually, none of us in our family ever shot Dad's guns even after he died

 

[SyraKelly]

SYRA-- Actually my mom kept our dad's revolvers locked up and later gave them to our uncle, she didnt want guns in our home with her 8 kids running around...LOL

Dad was a fairly high level FBI supervisor in the 1950's and kept his guns purely for memorabilia sake..Once he left NY City, he was done with law enforcement, never touched a gun after retiring from the Bureau

Actually, none of us in our family ever shot Dad's guns even after he died

I am sorry about your father-FBI HUH,that is what I wanted to do to.
but forget about the guns-8 KIDS-LOL,My husband has 8 kids in his family to,,boy Your mother & his..bless their hearts!!

 

[emmavoberry]

RS's father does not believe Oscar's account. I think he could have his reasons.

 

[Xavier]

I am sorry about your father-FBI HUH,that is what I wanted to do to.
but forget about the guns-8 KIDS-:floorlaugh:My husband has 8 kids in his family to,,boy Your mother & his..bless their hearts!!

Thanks SYRA -- Yeah, that's neat about your husband

So you were interested in the FBI as a career?

Well, our Dad had a pretty cool career. He was a lead investigator in NY City/Long Island handling the Rosenberg & Harry Gold espionage trial--selling defense secrets to the Russians...also he did surveillance on the Sam Giancana crime family and other east coast mob families, deported illegal Cubans ( Castro spies) and then he was really involved with tracking the 3rd Reich Nazi war criminals who were sabotaging US military bases in the USA

He died at 46, Mom raised 8 kids by herself practically

It's all good now, thanks for asking

Keep up the good sleuthing!!:seeya:

 

[Xavier]

[QUOTE=shane13;8930055]Precisely.
And I have tried to tell people here since I started to look more deeply at this.
The top brass knew about Botha's attempted murder charge and the reinstatement of it.

1. As soon as the local police station knew the person in custody for likely #6 homicide, was OP, the top brass should have pulled Botha BEFORE the bail hearing started. But they didn't.

2. Likewise when bail hearing started I recall hearing people say those charged with #6 murder rarely get bail in SA. But despite numerous other events that showed a pattern of reckless endangerment, he got bail.

3. Botha--with his statements on the height AND angle of shots into the toilet door--refuted OP's affidavit statements. yet when Roux asked him, he contradicted himself and said there was nothing in the evidence to contradict OP's affidavit.

And I have not gone over all of the bail hearing to look for other strangeness.

I think there is far more going on here behind the scenes, than the superficial level readily seen.

Be ready for anything as far as what the final verdict will be...

A word to the wise.[/QUOTE]


Great points Shane, I too think S Afrikaan detectives might be from the "good ole boys" network, but that's what it seems like, I can't say for sure

 

[shane13]

[QUOTE=shane13;8930055]Precisely.
And I have tried to tell people here since I started to look more deeply at this.
The top brass knew about Botha's attempted murder charge and the reinstatement of it.

1. As soon as the local police station knew the person in custody for likely #6 homicide, was OP, the top brass should have pulled Botha BEFORE the bail hearing started. But they didn't.

2. Likewise when bail hearing started I recall hearing people say those charged with #6 murder rarely get bail in SA. But despite numerous other events that showed a pattern of reckless endangerment, he got bail.

3. Botha--with his statements on the height AND angle of shots into the toilet door--refuted OP's affidavit statements. yet when Roux asked him, he contradicted himself and said there was nothing in the evidence to contradict OP's affidavit.

And I have not gone over all of the bail hearing to look for other strangeness.

I think there is far more going on here behind the scenes, than the superficial level readily seen.

Be ready for anything as far as what the final verdict will be...

A word to the wise.

Great points Shane, I too think S Afrikaan detectives might be from the "good ole boys" network, but that's what it seems like, I can't say for sure[/QUOTE]

thank you Xavier.

 

[Estelle]

OSCAR Pistorius's handwriting reveals a complex character with multiple personality traits, according to experts.

Australian graphologist Caro Duncan analysed a thankyou note, penned by Pistorius to a fan in September 2011.
"The fact his signature doesn’t agree with the body of his writing means he can be two different people, there is a public and a private persona," she said.
The note was posted five months ago on a fan's online blog, and read: "Thank you for coming to watch me race and for the support! Keep smiling and proving to the world that anything is possible! Much love, Oscar Pistorius."
Ms Duncan said the writing showed the gold medallist attempts to "live up to an ideal and meet other people's expectations" while also being on top of his game, and focused on the task at hand.
"The 'o' in his signature indicates there is a public persona that is a little bit different. He also underlines his name, so he has a sense of importance," she said
"Oscar has a temper. He uses this as a defence mechanism when he doesn't understand how to handle a situation," he said.
"Those that feel emotional intensity write with emotional intensity. The harder you press, the more things affect you emotionally.
"Oscar has a tendency to argue his perspective. He will stand his ground."

http://www.news.com.au/world/pistor...le-personalities/story-fndir2ev-1226585963279

 

[Estelle]

The Pistorius matter cries out for a plea bargain, and the legal story will probably end that way.In South Africa, premeditated murder carries a life sentence, which in practice turns out usually to be twenty-five years. The alternative charge in the case is called “culpable homicide,” which is based on the idea of negligence rather than intentional killing. Culpable homicide does not carry a minimum sentence, and is thus clearly amenable as a focus for plea negotiations.

Pistorius’s motive for wanting bargain is obvious: he could potentially turn a very long sentence into a short one, though he would give up the option of getting off completely.

But why would the government want to make a deal? Well, because Pistorius has a defensible case. Home invasions are epidemic in South Africa. A fact finder might credit Pistorius’s intense fear (and thus his overreaction) to the threat of an intruder in his bathroom. It is true, too, that domestic violence rarely results in convictions in South Africa. (Charlayne Hunter-Gault has essential background on that aspect of the case.)

The prosecution may also have a hard time proving motive. Pistorius and Steenkamp were a relatively new couple. There were no reports of public tension, much less murderous violence, between them. It is true that domestic violence happens in many relationships, old and new, but the prosecution would certainly want evidence of something that preceded Pistorius’s actions.

A plea bargain would obviate the need for the government to fill this hole in its case. The bail ruling also increases Pistorius’s leverage for a good plea deal. Since he is not in prison, he will be in no hurry to go to trial; his lawyers can spend time chipping away at the government’s case, hiring experts, demanding more information, and generally working to render the events of that night a little more muddy.
Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blo...argain-for-oscar-pistorius.html#ixzz2LzA7btwI

 

[Carol70]

I disagree. And I think he has MORE clout than OJ.

I respectfully disagree. We are a racially charged country, he is a rich white man. Not long ago we concluded the case of "jub jub" an up and comming Kwaito star, charged with the murder of 5 children caused by reckless speeding, drag racing and he was drugged/drunk at the time. Sentenced to 20 years. It was an accident, he clearly never meant to mow down those kids with his vehicle. If OP walks away from this, all hell is going to break loose. SA commentators are already talking about the rich black kid who got 25 years in the prime of his life, what do you think is going to happen if the rich white kid gets anything less?? Anarchy. Not to make this political but the ANC are grasping at anything that will help them retain power...it wouldn't surprise me if this case only comes to trial after our elections next year...as it is, the ANCWL have been very vocal in this case...even attending Reevas funeral.

 

[Carol70]

Just some snippets re JubJub and Oscar

I expect that the Pro-Oscar brigade will attack me with vitriol I have become quite accustomed to, but I'd like to ask them where their passion for the law and unwavering belief that 'suspects are innocent until proven guilty' was when Jub Jub was on trial?
Remember how quickly social commentators went on the attack and declared him guilty before the facts came out? Ultimately he turned out to be guilty and was justly sentenced, but this was not until he had been tried and judged in the court of public opinion

.
http://thekalooreport.blogspot.com/2013/02/oscar-pistorius-and-temple-of-doom.html

The state can prove the direct intention by proving that the accused actually meant to kill the deceased. Evidence that the accused and the victim were involved in a stormy argument before the killing or that the accused had previously threatened the life of the victim could be important.

The state can also prove intention via the concept of dolus eventualis. This form of intention exists where the state can prove that while the accused might not have meant to kill the victim, he nevertheless foresaw the possibility and nevertheless proceeded with his actions. “Jub Jub” Maarohanye and his co-accused Themba Tshabalala were convicted of murder on the basis of dolus eventualis as the court found that they foresaw that their reckless driving in a built up area might lead to the killing on innocent bystanders.

http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/oscar-pistorius-criminal-law-101/

From the comments of this article:

Musa #
When Jub Jub killed those kids in an accident, there was ‘public outrage’. Oscar murders (possibly in self defence) and there is great sympathy.

http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/sarahbritten/2013/02/14/oscar-a-south-african-tragedy/

 

[Lola]

Precisely.
And I have tried to tell people here since I started to look more deeply at this.
The top brass knew about Botha's attempted murder charge and the reinstatement of it.

According to the press conference on the day botha was pulled, the charges although reinstated on Feb4 did not filter down

Vinesh Moonoo Replaces Hilton Botha As Lead Detective In Oscar Pistorius Casel

<snip>

Bulewa Makeke, spokeswoman for South Africa's National Prosecuting Authority, said the attempted murder charges had been reinstated against Botha on Feb. 4. Police say they found out about it after Botha testified in Pistorius' bail hearing Wednesday.

 

[Carol70]

According to the press conference on the day botha was pulled, the charges although reinstated on Feb4 did not filter down

Vinesh Moonoo Replaces Hilton Botha As Lead Detective In Oscar Pistorius Casel

<snip>

Lol, I don't believe them!!! Over 2 weeks and no one bothered to tell Botha the charges were reinstated?? 7 attempted murder charges? I call bull shyte!!

 

[lexycat]

I respectfully disagree. We are a racially charged country, he is a rich white man. Not long ago we concluded the case of "jub jub" an up and comming Kwaito star, charged with the murder of 5 children caused by reckless speeding, drag racing and he was drugged/drunk at the time. Sentenced to 20 years. It was an accident, he clearly never meant to mow down those kids with his vehicle. If OP walks away from this, all hell is going to break loose. SA commentators are already talking about the rich black kid who got 25 years in the prime of his life, what do you think is going to happen if the rich white kid gets anything less?? Anarchy. Not to make this political but the ANC are grasping at anything that will help them retain power...it wouldn't surprise me if this case only comes to trial after our elections next year...as it is, the ANCWL have been very vocal in this case...even attending Reevas funeral.

Thank you Carol70 for sharing your insight on what's happening in your part of the world. I, for one, really appreciate it, as I read through the different reports and news items on this case.

Have you heard any discussion about where, inside or outside, OP's 2 dogs were that night?

 

[Carol70]

Thank you Carol70 for sharing your insight on what's happening in your part of the world. I, for one, really appreciate it, as I read through the different reports and news items on this case.

Have you heard any discussion about where, inside or outside, OP's 2 dogs were that night?

I believe his dogs were in the back yard, the same yard that the bathroom window faces.
Btw, I earlier stated that his one dog appears to be a Boerboel, on seeing a clearer picture, I actually think its a pit bull. It's too small to be a boelly. But just as good as guard dog.

 

[Estelle]

Nowhere Left For Pistorius To Run Anymore - the astrology

http://collaboratingwithfate.blogspot.com.au/2013/02/nowhere-left-for-pistorius-to-run.html

 

[Estelle]

Lol, I don't believe them!!! Over 2 weeks and no one bothered to tell Botha the charges were reinstated?? 7 attempted murder charges? I call bull shyte!!

It was less than one week, wasn't it Carol?

 

[Estelle]

A look at Oscar Pistorius' assets

http://news.yahoo.com/look-oscar-pistorius-assets-174249700--oly.html