IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

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VeryVeritas said:
I really appreciate the serious mastication that is going on with every word of every known statement and fact. Every so often I have to take a break from this case and come back with fresh eyes. It just won't leave me alone, however.

This detail about the ID as noted by JR, is similar to his overall very detailed observations that night. Its one of those things that has always raised red flags for me about JR's story. So many people readily want to chalk these people up as being so intoxicated that they were not functional. But clearly in JR's case, the excruciating details, his "walk test", the phone calls are all very richly contrasted against the simple effort of walking LS home 2 blocks away. walking her home could have easily been accomplished perhaps 5 times within the supposed time interval of his astute observations and requests.

Today the phrase "rounding the corner" got me thinking again... why this detail? Why not just saw her walking down 11th? For one thing... if he didn't watch her all the way to the corner it would seem like he wasn't all that caring. But no, he had to watch her all they way to the corner...hmm. Again if he was that concerned, why not just walk her the 2 blocks home! So, why else have her "round the corner"? That is the point where he lets himself off the hook. He throws the possibilities of what happened to her out into the abyss. The implication is stranger abduction. And so no matter how unreasonable and unlikely that is, the challenge is to prove out this lie. (and points well taken that this lie may have also been extended in the form of crafted PR being expressed through unwitting or knowing mouthpieces)

Every one of JR's detailed observations seems so well thought out. It has the earmarks of craftsmanship.

About the second call. If the second call was to HT, even if she knew about that, she certainly would have reason to NOT bring that to light.
It is reasonable that if JR told HT about the call to DR, he would also have mentioned the call to HT as well. But if the second call was not to HT, then it is very curious why JR would not tell HT and/or if he did, why HT would not reveal it. This second call is definitely a loose thread.

Also I think in another recent post by bx about JR going out of his way to make it clear that he alone saw all of this. He's not only protecting CR/MB but his guests as well. Extremely curious.

About The Spierer's... I do think that intuition from CS is very important.
She does have a sense of what went down. And that sense seems to be rather consistent with the mass of analysis going here. Looking at this situation from so many different angles, scenarios, crunching all known data, it keeps coming down to the curious 3:30 phone call from MB to JR and what really happened during the next hour.

My intuition points to an accidental death, botched response from those present, and ensuing cover up. But it's also plausible that ill intent was also a factor and is compelling as a reason for the cover up. Even as unlikely as it would seem to have several people maintain a conspiracy, my gut tells me that it's more likely that at least 2 and perhaps as many as 5 people know what happened or were involved in the crucial 3:30 to 4:30 time frame. JR took responsibility as being the last to see her for various reasons. But it's just too convenient and too well crafted.
MB had to know that LS was in very bad shape if even alive, in stark contrast to all statements attributed to him. This is a big red flag the size of China. MB had this hot potato fall in his lap and he was happy to toss it to storyteller JR. JR turned it into french fries. With is magic wand, JR, gets CR/MB, his guests, and himself all off the hook.
Click to expand...

I think you are right about the times being a key. It seems like when people lie, a thought out lie vs. a spur of the moment lie they will generally attempt to leave in as much of the truth as possible only changing specific and important details. I've wracked my brain trying to come up with a valid reason that any of these selfish, entitled, never had to own their behavior brats would cover for the other unless they each had their own responsibility in the outcome. Now I'm wondering if one or more were holding out on being in agreement on how to handle the gone really bad situation. For example, could it be that CR wasn't down with the plan but he compromised by saying I'm not going to be a part of this story but I won't roll on you either, I'll say I don't remember sh** and the rest of you can do what you want. I'll stay out of it and you leave me out of it. Maybe JR knows getting all these people to lie and stay loyal to the lie would be next to impossible so he steps up as last to see Lauren with the understanding everyone else sticks to knowing nada and pointing to him. He can keep better control with a minimum of cooks in the kitchen. I'm starting to think that Lauren's head smacks came to a crisis point either just prior to or just after
arriving back at CRs. I don't think MB walked her over to JRs, I think he carried her or went and got JR to come back to his place to help. Once it's become an irreversible fact that Lauren has died is when these 2 calls are made, 4:15 has Lauren being taken to another location rather than 'rounding the corner' on her way back to SW. In this version of events the timeline stays intact and really nothing much has to change except for what Lauren's condition was and how she left JRs. And like you said, there is also the added benefit of tossing the truth 'out into the abyss' and introducing the possibility of a stranger abduction as possible at the one and only time all night long that it would be at all possible. I also think if this is something close to how it went down that CR is crackable with the right heat put on him.
 
SeeingForThe1stTime said:
I think you are right about the times being a key. It seems like when people lie, a thought out lie vs. a spur of the moment lie they will generally attempt to leave in as much of the truth as possible only changing specific and important details. I've wracked my brain trying to come up with a valid reason that any of these selfish, entitled, never had to own their behavior brats would cover for the other unless they each had their own responsibility in the outcome. Now I'm wondering if one or more were holding out on being in agreement on how to handle the gone really bad situation. For example, could it be that CR wasn't down with the plan but he compromised by saying I'm not going to be a part of this story but I won't roll on you either, I'll say I don't remember sh** and the rest of you can do what you want. I'll stay out of it and you leave me out of it. Maybe JR knows getting all these people to lie and stay loyal to the lie would be next to impossible so he steps up as last to see Lauren with the understanding everyone else sticks to knowing nada and pointing to him. He can keep better control with a minimum of cooks in the kitchen. I'm starting to think that Lauren's head smacks came to a crisis point either just prior to or just after
arriving back at CRs. I don't think MB walked her over to JRs, I think he carried her or went and got JR to come back to his place to help. Once it's become an irreversible fact that Lauren has died is when these 2 calls are made, 4:15 has Lauren being taken to another location rather than 'rounding the corner' on her way back to SW. In this version of events the timeline stays intact and really nothing much has to change except for what Lauren's condition was and how she left JRs. And like you said, there is also the added benefit of tossing the truth 'out into the abyss' and introducing the possibility of a stranger abduction as possible at the one and only time all night long that it would be at all possible. I also think if this is something close to how it went down that CR is crackable with the right heat put on him.
Click to expand...

very much agreed
 
VeryVeritas said:
I really appreciate the serious mastication that is going on with every word of every known statement and fact. Every so often I have to take a break from this case and come back with fresh eyes. It just won't leave me alone, however.

This detail about the ID as noted by JR, is similar to his overall very detailed observations that night. Its one of those things that has always raised red flags for me about JR's story. So many people readily want to chalk these people up as being so intoxicated that they were not functional. But clearly in JR's case, the excruciating details, his "walk test", the phone calls are all very richly contrasted against the simple effort of walking LS home 2 blocks away. walking her home could have easily been accomplished perhaps 5 times within the supposed time interval of his astute observations and requests.

Today the phrase "rounding the corner" got me thinking again... why this detail? Why not just saw her walking down 11th? For one thing... if he didn't watch her all the way to the corner it would seem like he wasn't all that caring. But no, he had to watch her all they way to the corner...hmm. Again if he was that concerned, why not just walk her the 2 blocks home! So, why else have her "round the corner"? That is the point where he lets himself off the hook. He throws the possibilities of what happened to her out into the abyss. The implication is stranger abduction. And so no matter how unreasonable and unlikely that is, the challenge is to prove out this lie. (and points well taken that this lie may have also been extended in the form of crafted PR being expressed through unwitting or knowing mouthpieces)

Every one of JR's detailed observations seems so well thought out. It has the earmarks of craftsmanship.

About the second call. If the second call was to HT, even if she knew about that, she certainly would have reason to NOT bring that to light.
It is reasonable that if JR told HT about the call to DR, he would also have mentioned the call to HT as well. But if the second call was not to HT, then it is very curious why JR would not tell HT and/or if he did, why HT would not reveal it. This second call is definitely a loose thread.

Also I think in another recent post by bx about JR going out of his way to make it clear that he alone saw all of this. He's not only protecting CR/MB but his guests as well. Extremely curious.

About The Spierer's... I do think that intuition from CS is very important.
She does have a sense of what went down. And that sense seems to be rather consistent with the mass of analysis going here. Looking at this situation from so many different angles, scenarios, crunching all known data, it keeps coming down to the curious 3:30 phone call from MB to JR and what really happened during the next hour.

My intuition points to an accidental death, botched response from those present, and ensuing cover up. But it's also plausible that ill intent was also a factor and is compelling as a reason for the cover up. Even as unlikely as it would seem to have several people maintain a conspiracy, my gut tells me that it's more likely that at least 2 and perhaps as many as 5 people know what happened or were involved in the crucial 3:30 to 4:30 time frame. JR took responsibility as being the last to see her for various reasons. But it's just too convenient and too well crafted.
MB had to know that LS was in very bad shape if even alive, in stark contrast to all statements attributed to him. This is a big red flag the size of China. MB had this hot potato fall in his lap and he was happy to toss it to storyteller JR. JR turned it into french fries. With is magic wand, JR, gets CR/MB, his guests, and himself all off the hook.
Click to expand...


Could not agree more with the entire post. I feel like our thoughts on this case are identical. And the way you ended this post sounded like a closing argument in a trial- AKA amazing.
 
Probably not related... (I don't know how to link on my iPhone - lucky I can even turn it on!)- but the story is on WISH TV (Indpls) website...

FRANKLIN COUNTY, Ind. (WISH) – Indiana State Police have confirmed with 24-Hour News 8 that skeletal remains were found in Franklin County Sunday.
 
jobid said:
Probably not related... (I don't know how to link on my iPhone - lucky I can even turn it on!)- but the story is on WISH TV (Indpls) website...

FRANKLIN COUNTY, Ind. (WISH) – Indiana State Police have confirmed with 24-Hour News 8 that skeletal remains were found in Franklin County Sunday.
Click to expand...
Here, lemme give you a hand. ;)

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/indiana/skeletal-remains-found-in-franklin-co



The articles just say skeletal remains found on Big Cedar Rd in Cedar Grove, Franklin County. Will be analyzed Monday.

http://www.cwcincinnati.com/content...-Remains-Found-in/02qMUo2SyU-2XXeHprwa5w.cspx

This one says a group searching for aluminum cans found what appeared to be a human skeleton in a creek bed on Big Cedar Rd.

http://www.fox19.com/story/21903985/skeletal-remains-found-in-franklin-co-creek-bed
 
SeeingForThe1stTime said:
I'm starting to think that Lauren's head smacks came to a crisis point either just prior to or just after
arriving back at CRs.
Click to expand...

That made me think...

**FYI- By NO MEANS am I defending CR in the following post. I'm just trying to think of things from another perspective....his perspective**

CR may not have initially thought anything weird of LS's lack of coordination on the walk from Smallwood to 5N. After being in college for 2 years at that point he probably had countless walks home with people who were falling and running into things, etc. Personally, I don't find it the least bit odd or suspicious that LS left her shoes and phone at Kilroy's- that's college. I've done that a few times, and didn't notice either was missing until the next day. That includes the 10-20 minute walks back to my apartment. It is what it is.

Anyways.....So CR and LS were walking back to 5N, and he was probably thinking he was going to get lucky, when he realized LS wasn't at a "typical" level of drunk/high. I can imagine that it would be extremely shocking and scary if the condition of someone you were with became really serious really fast. Remember that video the PI's released where they recapped everything? They noted that CR (still with LS, obviously) knocked on the door of an apartment of female friends....who weren't there. Wasn't LS in BAD condition at this point? Perhaps he POTENTIALLY was looking for help of some sort. LS was barely functioning....Why else would they have gone there? Have we heard a reason? Yes, the logical thing to do would be to call 911, but I'm trying to think of this from a "college kid who believes he's entitled" perspective at that hour, while remembering the circumstances of the night. He could have just thought she blacked out and needed to sleep it off, which unfortunately is pretty typically seen in college. If they were using drugs I can see why he wouldn't want to call 911 either--as bad as things were, I'm going to assume CR didn't think LS was actually going to die.

When he recognized that she had died, he was probably scared beyond belief....on top of that, he barely knew her a week, they went out partying together, they could have hooked up prior to actually leaving for Kilroy's (DNA), and all of a sudden she's no longer breathing and has bruises all around her eyes/face. If he called 911 to report she died, how would that look? Personally, I don't think I would believe anyone if they claimed LS got those bruises from falling, even though we now know that's the truth. But CR likely wasn't aware that video survellience captured that.

People keep insisting that nobody would hide a body to cover up drug use- what about hiding a body that appeared to be beaten, and had severe head trauma? CR could have thought nobody would believe the truth, and instead believe he intentionally harmed her. If not that, maybe people would blame him for her death, asking why he didn't carry her when seeing her struggle, which would have prevented the head trauma.

I can understand him being scared. Fear aside, I cannot understand remaining silent nearly two years later. That's just heartless. I imagine this eats at him HEAVILY (and MB and JR), and they all feel guilty (as they should). And back to the head trauma being the turning point- I would think CR would have extra guilt for NOT carrying LS on the entire walk back to 5N, or even allowing her to leave Smallwood for 5N in the first place. I totally agree with RS- LS would be alive today if she never met CR.
 
mfunky, thanks for your post! You make two great points I had not considered before:
1. what if CR & LS hooked up BEFORE going to Kilroys (therefore DNA evidence); and
2. that they had only known each other for a week or so.

I'm so curious if LS's phone shows texts she sent/recvd from CR that would indicate they had plans to "hook up". Until now I had accepted that CR had plans to be "more than friends with LS," but perhaps LS felt the same way towards CR.

Also, because they had only known each other for a short time, it makes sense that CR would have no clue re: LS heart condition, assuming that played a part in her demise.

One more thought I just want to share ... nothing factual to back this up, I'm just thinking out loud ... but as I've tried multiple times to get a feel for what the mood of the evening was prior to LS leaving with DR to go to5N, I remember reading that HT (IIRC) said they were all hanging out at SW and didn't feel like going out, but LS did want to go out.

I wonder if LS friends/roommates were a little pissed at her because they knew she was planning to hook up with CR (or at least knew things were "heating up" between LS & CR) and they were all fans of JW or even fans of "the relationship" LS & JW had. So maybe LS' friends had their own hopes that LS wouldn't mess up her relationship with JW by going out with CR that night...but LS made up her mind to go for what she wanted (CR) and left SW with DR to go to 5N.

Maybe the SW group then felt like, "hey, she's on her own. I don't back her up with this choice." I wonder if that is behind HT's "vibe" so many people talk about when they watch HT talk about the events of the evening.

One other random thought .. wasn't it mentioned a while back that HT and DR might have been together that night? I don't know if it was rumored to be in a romantic way or just platonic ... but if HT & DR hooked up that night...it might explain why DR didn't answer his phone. Also perhaps the 2nd call was made to HT because LS &/or JR knew HT & DR would be literally side x side/right next to each other at 4am.

Just my thoughts.
 
The remains have been ID'd as Katelyn Markham. :(

http://www.wlwt.com/news/local-news...-s/-/13601510/19702694/-/4f1kwqz/-/index.html


[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148943"]Found Deceased OH - Katelyn Markham, 22, Fairfield, 14 August 2011 - #4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
bessie said:
Here, lemme give you a hand. ;)

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/indiana/skeletal-remains-found-in-franklin-co



The articles just say skeletal remains found on Big Cedar Rd in Cedar Grove, Franklin County. Will be analyzed Monday.

http://www.cwcincinnati.com/content...-Remains-Found-in/02qMUo2SyU-2XXeHprwa5w.cspx

This one says a group searching for aluminum cans found what appeared to be a human skeleton in a creek bed on Big Cedar Rd.

http://www.fox19.com/story/21903985/skeletal-remains-found-in-franklin-co-creek-bed
Click to expand...
 
hyldo said:
This is interesting and hopeful news:

http://www.browncountyindiana.com/index.php?id=13985

Human remains have been found in the woods off of State Road 46 in Brown County, just east of Bloomington. Definitely worth watching in the coming days and weeks.
Click to expand...

That address is only ~ 15 miles from where LS was last seen. Though the "woman over 30" makes it sound like it's not her.


I've been wondering: Has LE searched for "pings" from any of the POIs' cell phones for the hours shortly after she was last seen? Can that even be done?
 
Finding Katelyn gives me renewed hope in this case. There are lots of people in the world and one day one of them will bring Lauren home one way or another.
 
Kadence said:
Aww, I just hate this :( RIP dear Katelyn
Click to expand...

I thought it had to be Katelyn when I first read about this find. After all, the location is very close to a radio station that targets Cincinnati. And the area was frequented by Katelyn and her boyfriend. He was quite acquainted with Franklin County Indiana. He is now quoted by a Cincinnati TV station saying, Life sucks."
 
kimbella said:
That address is only ~ 15 miles from where LS was last seen. Though the "woman over 30" makes it sound like it's not her.


I've been wondering: Has LE searched for "pings" from any of the POIs' cell phones for the hours shortly after she was last seen? Can that even be done?
Click to expand...

What about wisdom teeth? The ages for wisdom teeth eruption is usually between 17-25 but can be earlier or later. Everyone's different! So, Lauren's dentist would know. Really strange. This is the very area where Lauren's mother was drawn to on 4 June 2011. Was it a rumor or intuition that brought her there? If this turns out to be Lauren? Can the POI be traced to the area?
Very possible. Did any of them attend concerts at Mike's Music and Dance Barn?
 
I wonder how they would make a judgment like over 30 from a skull-just wisdom teeth? I have always heard that age estimates under 18 are super accurate, but above that and it gets iffier. I wonder if over 30 is a preliminary judgment and they will lower the age range?

Or maybe I just really want Lauren to be found so she can have peace and her family can bury their daughter :(
 
5:26 p.m. UPDATE: Investigators continue to work the scene, in the 2500 block of Wise Hollow Road, reports Chief Deputy Jeff Deckard.

Among them is Dr. Stephen Nawrocki, director of osteology at the archaeology and forensics laboratory at the University of Indianapolis, whose expertise includes skeletal age estimation.

Authorities hope that collected materials will help identify the body and determine the cause and manner of death, said Prosecutor Jim Oliver, who was notified early on in the investigation in case it would become a criminal case.

"We have no idea who we have at this point," said Chief Deputy Coroner Earl Piper, who also has been working at the scene, along with Indiana State Police and Brown County Emergency Management.

He cautioned against speculation.

Piper said dental records may need to be used to make identification.

http://www.bcdemocrat.com/index.php?id=13985
 
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