Grand Jury True Bills John & Patsy Discussion thread

[eileenhawkeye]

Well, one positive is the news about the indictment has brought in a lot of people, as 4 days later, there are currently 90 people viewing this forum.

 

[bettybaby00]

I'm still somewhat confused, b/c for me, there seem to be conflicting reports regarding statue of limitations on the indictment.

 

[DeeDee249]

I have always thought the size 12 panties were directly linked to Patsy's superficial "perfection."
During the staging, Patsy certainly realized that, although JB's dresser was filled with fecal stained underwear...she could not have her little Beauty Queen PUBLICLY found that way.

She alone knew where to find brand new ones. Better perfect little underpants than ones that fit.

I wonder if they were among the wrapped gifts in the basement...then she stuck the rest of them upstairs after the staging.

She never stuck them upstairs. Police removed ALL the panties belonging to JB. NONE were size 12. Five years later, the remaining 6 pairs were sent to police (via a R attorney) still in the package. Patsy was lying. She removed ONE pair from that package in the basement. The Wednesday pair found on JB.

 

[dodie20]

Your suggestion of a felony murder charge for participation in the ligature/garotte is really insightful, since it’d be easier to prove a parent participation in the ligature, than to prove a youth offender, even if BR were a boyscout. Also, since it was thought JB died outside the cellar where the urine stains were released upon the carpet, she would have been carried there one would think, not dragged. One other thing regards JB’s injuries: There weren’t marks on her clothes from a piece of train track (or something else used to cause the abrasions), so someone definitely redressed her and after redressing, the urine was released from the strangulation death. Like you say, unless JR can claim he was out like a light until the morning, he participated (Israeli shirt fibers tend to suggest that). One other scattered thought about BR and a ligature. SS overheard both BR and his best friend DS discussing how JB might have been strangled, as though they were wondering how it was accomplished. If it had been him rigging up a ligature and garotte, BR might not have engaged in this conversation as though he also was wondering?

Kolar in the program on Sunday indicated there might be a possibility of a new GJ in which questions could be asked of BR, because there were inconsistencies in his testimony to Detective DS in Atlanta. But, here’s the downside that I understand from the Stan Garnett article, and of course, it’s only my opinion - there isn’t going to be a new grand jury unless they get a DA like Vincent Bugliosi who won’t blink. That’s not going to happen in Boulder. All moo.

There have been times when I've tried to give JR a certain benefit of the doubt, but his shirt fibers say otherwise. Just curious, I know he was freshly showered, but what was he wearing when LE showed up? Those shirt fibers, PR's jacket fibers and the ransom note written in PR's handwriting....there it is, the evidence that can't be explained away with any unknown DNA. The same child's scream that was loud enough to wake a neighbor and concern her enough to wake her husband, wasn't loud enough to wake a single person in the R's house. Then the neighbor's husband heard the metal on concrete scraping sound.

 

[redheadedgal]

vlpate was telling me about an interview (or a depo) where every time kane brought up BR's name, LW interrupted/stopped that line of questioning. i'm not sure if PR or JR was the subject. does anyone know where this can be found? i tried all the links on ACR, but didn't see what i thought vlpate was talking about. thanks!

quoting myself and bumping to ask if any of the night crew know... !!

 

[midwest mama]

There have been times when I've tried to give JR a certain benefit of the doubt, but his shirt fibers say otherwise. Just curious, I know he was freshly showered, but what was he wearing when LE showed up? Those shirt fibers, PR's jacket fibers and the ransom note written in PR's handwriting....there it is, the evidence that can't be explained away with any unknown DNA. The same child's scream that was loud enough to wake a neighbor and concern her enough to wake her husband, wasn't loud enough to wake a single person in the R's house. Then the neighbor's husband heard the metal on concrete scraping sound.

IIRC, JR was wearing beige slacks and a blue and white striped shirt...sorry can't remember which book reported this.

 

[ElleElle]

Believe what you want. However, autopsy reports showed JBR's hymen was severely eroded. Digital penetration or insertion of a object can cause that. Maybe the exploration went too far and JBR cried out or tried to get away, threatening "to tell".

I read the autopsy report (as gut wrenching as it was); and I still believe John was the abuser. What object did he use? Flashlight?

Also, I believe he moved the body while the LE was there, I wonder if anything was disposed of. I mean, he did remove the duct tape.

 

[vlpate]

quoting myself and bumping to ask if any of the night crew know... !!

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9945"]This must be the one[/ame] Kane was referring to on LKL back in 2000:

PATSY RAMSEY: Burke Ramsey did not
do this, okay. He did not do this. Get off it.

 

[ElleElle]

Let's assume the sex game went bad, JBR tried to escape, BR smashed her on the head or maybe squeezed her neck until she lost consciousness. JR and PR hear the commotion, see what's happened, send BR to bed. JBR looks dead and can't be revived, so they stage a crime scene with ligature, etc.

This is EXACTLY what I assume! Just my theory ... :seeya:

Patsy "lost it" on JBR, then the failed attempt at a cover-up... But, the Ramsey's being who they were: their socio-economic status, the friends, family, acquaintances, enemies, housekeepers, gardeners, business partners, pageant crazies, neighbours; they figured the finger would not be pointed at them once the body was discovered.

However, they screwed-up.

Patsy panicked and called 911.

John had to move the body, so it could not be found. Then he panicked once again and carried the body to the LE? How weird is that?

IMO, these is signs of deception.

 

[ElleElle]

This is exactly what I think happened with one major exception- I think it was John rather than Burke doing it...

I think Patsy smashed her head first (oh, the initials drive me :scared.

Then, John set up the ligature while Patsy wrote the ransom note as John recited it to her in panic mode.

 

[dodie20]

This must be the one Kane was referring to on LKL back in 2000:

a little beside the point, but did the way PR address her family and herself strike anybody else as weird? She called them and herself by their full names and sometimes talked in the 3rd person. IMO, it might have been a way of separating herself from events, so she could keep her story straight... kind of pretend to be an outsider telling a story about other people. Anyway, it seems odd to me.

 

[vlpate]

Quest, is one of these what you saw?

View attachment 38409 View attachment 38410

Very odd...do you have the entire photo?

 

[lawstudent]

No matter who bashed JB, considering the validated opinions of several that the head blow came before the ligature strangulation, it then took the ligature strangulation to end her life.

Former GJ returned true bills naming BOTH JR and PR as Accessories. Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't that include both of them being aware JB was alive when the ligature was actively employed?

If JB was moved from one location to another WITHOUT seeking medical attention for her while still alive, before the ligature was applied and used, that would quality the Kidnapping charge. And, if it was PR who used the ligature, unless JR was 100% conked out asleep while it was going on and not brought into the mess until some time later (those shirt fibers in the panties have to make me believe he was there during a redressing), I would think JR should be able to be charged with Felony Murder since he did nothing to stop PR, knowing JB was still medically alive.

It would go back to who bashed her head, though. If Burke did it, then I could see the parents possibly being charged with accessory to felony murder. If Burke only intended to assault her and accidentally killed her, that could be felony murder, and then the parents assisted.

But if one of them bashed her and then put the ligature on, I think that'd just be first degree murder. That seems pretty intentional to me - unless somehow the headbash was an accident and they really thought she was already dead when they put the ligature on. But I guess it is possible.

But if someone just stands by and doesn't seek medical care, I don't think that's felony murder. Other charges are possible, but if they weren't a participant in the felony, they can't be charged with felony murder. So they would have to actively participate in the assault or application of the ligature. However, they were only charged with accessory - but that means someone else had to be guilty of felony murder. Both of them covering up an accident by one or the other would not make them accessories to felony murder - there has to be an actual murder for that charge to stick. So that does point at Burke. But I just don't know.

 

[ElleElle]

Very odd...do you have the entire photo?

Mods, sorry if not allowed.

 

[Rougelatete]

But Burke couldn't have been charged with murder -- or anything. He was too young at 9 years old in the state of Colorado.

Any legal experts here? Do the GJ indictments against PR and JR mean that the GJ believed they (or someone else aged 10 or above) was guilty of the crime of 1st degree murder and PR and JR were accessories covering it up? Or could they still be charged as accessories to Burke's crime even though he was under legal age and untouchable/unchargeable by law?

In other words, would they have to prove that a 1st degree murder happened in order to prosecute and convict JR and PR of being accessories to it?

 

[delaney]

I came to my BDI belief after reading

The Intimate Story of Skyler Rampike by Joyce Carol Oates.

It is a fictional, thinly disguisted, story of Jonbenet.

What a great read. BDI is what makes the parents actions

understandable. moo

 

[Rougelatete]

To follow up on my earlier post, would using the ligature count as 1st degree murder if PR or JR reasonably believed JBR was still alive when they applied it?

I guess I'm just struggling with: you can't charge someone with being an accessory to a crime if that crime didn't (under legal terms) happen, can you? So since the GJ indicted JR and PR on being accessories to a 1st degree murder cover-up, that either means they believe one of the parents killed JBR in the 1st degree (and BR could still have dealt the preliminary blow) or that you don't have to prove a murder occurred in the 1st degree in order to be charged as an accessory.

Just curious which it is because it could leave open the possibility of future charges for JR and BR.

 

[BOESP]

Very odd...do you have the entire photo?

I used the entire photo that had already been posted here, which is a few posts above the snippets I posted.

 

[lawstudent]

But Burke couldn't have been charged with murder -- or anything. He was too young at 9 years old in the state of Colorado.

Any legal experts here? Do the GJ indictments against PR and JR mean that the GJ believed they (or someone else aged 10 or above) was guilty of the crime of 1st degree murder and PR and JR were accessories covering it up? Or could they still be charged as accessories to Burke's crime even though he was under legal age and untouchable/unchargeable by law?

In other words, would they have to prove that a 1st degree murder happened in order to prosecute and convict JR and PR of being accessories to it?

Not sure - that's what I'm wondering as well. If Burke could not have committed murder under Colorado law, I don't think the parents could be charged as accessories. Whether it is the jury misunderstanding the charges, or not being told about the law regarding Burke, or what, I think there does need to be a murder. Perhaps not a proven one, but at least a chargeable one. But if no one is convicted, a prosecutor generally wouldn't bring a case. So in the case of robberies where one guy shot someone and the rest assisted in the felony, they try the shoot first and if he is acquitted, they usually drop the accessory or murder charges against the others, and just go to robbery charges, I think. I don't think proof of a murder is required, but it just makes it really hard to avoid reasonable doubt and bring a case.

 

[rachaellouise]

I'm surprised we haven't heard more about BR as he has gotten older. From high school friends, college friends etc. I think it'd gain a lot of interest, going to the same school as the brother from this infamous case. JMO