Were things out of control for TH? Did she "snap"?

Have any of you watched the show "Snapped" on the Oxygen channel? I've noticed that they often have a reoccurring theme: the woman wanted control and when that didn't happen, they took matters into their own hands....

As I read this article on The Hinky Meter (written by one of our own WS members), I see the same theme.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2010/08/20/kyron-horman-case-an-informative-look-at-terri/

This thread is for discussing what makes a person snap, could this be what happened with Terri?, and the Hinky Meter article.

When did J**** actually move out? Was it that weekend that Kaine went on a business trip in February? If so, that would mean that she was alone with Kyron and baby K for that weekend. Why did she do this? Was she thinking that Kaine was somewhere with another woman during that business trip? Was this done as some way to punish not only J**** but also Kaine and Kyron, by splitting up the family?

I think she did snap. I wouldn't be surprised. She didn't love Kaine anymore (as evidenced by her trying to do away with him), her one attempt at trying to do something about Kaine went nowhere, she sent her son away after she couldn't deal with him, she gained weight after having a baby (a blow to someone used to having a trim and fit body) and was possibly depressed (possibly as severe as PPD), and she couldn't get anything more than substituting after getting a DUI in 2005 (and I know that was five years ago, but it had to be eating at her that after five years, her teaching prospects were no better).

Then Kyron starts having problems, which only get worse no matter how much she works with him. Maybe she decides to enter his symptoms on WebMD one day, and the subject of seizures comes up. It's something she hasn't ever considered, and maybe that takes her over the edge. All the things going wrong in her life, and one of those things, the child in her face the most, was possibly having seizures.

I bet her mind went on overdrive. He'd have to be watched more closely, given special medicines, and special attention - even MORE attention than she was giving him, more attention from KH and DY, and more attention away from herself and her bio kids. He already was taking attention from her, and he already was in her care most of the time. Now he'd be even MORE of a problem to her than he had been before. And I bet she assumed she'd still be the biggest caretaker for him too.

I do think she was thinking about getting rid of him before that to hurt Kaine, but now, thinking that this boy was going to be even more of a problem for her to handle made her finally go over the edge. So she plans on getting rid of him for good, no way is he going to be her problem anymore. Maybe she even convinces herself that if he is having seizures, she's saving him from suffering anymore (using this ONLY to convince herself to actually do it). I bet calling to make that appointment just furthered her fears when an actual doctor agreed that he might be having seizures. It let her know she still had to do this.

And with the Thelma and Louise thing between her and Dede, maybe she used the "stop the suffering of poor Kyron" to convince Dede to help her, and Dede called on her merry band of fix any problem landscapers to help her (if what that one comment said was true, we've got another landscaper involved, Oy Vey!).

So yes, I do think she snapped. I think she's been broken ever since and barely holding it together. I think if she had a cellphone or a computer, there'd be a lot more crazy things she'd be putting out there. She must be about to explode from staying in a house and not being allowed to do anything. I wonder if she has a tv so she can at least exercise to a tape or tv program or something.

I am thinking that the motive was different ever since the info about Kyron possibly having seizures came out. She could have lied about it, but I think it's more likely that she convinced herself it had to be true when maybe it wasn't. Reminds me of a tv show case (can't remember which show and that tells me I watch way too many of them) where this couple was convinced their new baby had the same disease as the previous one who died, so they left him in a car on a hot day to die. Turns out he was ingesting fertilizer from mom's garden and was a healthy baby. Really sad. I hope that kind of mindset is not what happened here, but it seems likely to me.

And btw, I know her degree was in special needs or something like that, but it is one thing to take care of other special needs children, and quite something else to take care of your own special needs children. I don't think Terri wanted one of her own to take care of at home. All IMO.

ETA: She was also thought she'd be able to get back at the school and the teacher she thought she could do better than as well. She basically tried to kill two birds with one stone here. Too bad it didn't turn out the way she thought it would.

What can make a person "snap?" Hmm...I think it has to be a combination of stressful things. Most times, a family can handle a teenager if everything else is pretty stable. Teens are SO HARD to deal with many times.

But if you add into the pot a troubled marriage, financial problems, employment issues, plus or minus depression/PPD (all of which have been alluded to in the Horman family), I could see one of the parents flipping out or wanting an "out" of some sort whether it be divorce, an affair, running away, what-have-you.

IIRC, there has never been any mention whatsoever that the family was seeking counseling of some sort - doctor's visits, yes, but mental health/counseling services I don't remember. I could be wrong though.

I don't think we've seen any indication that Terri harbored any ill-will toward Kyron. If she did anything to him, it was an act against either the school or his parents. Kyron was more likely a pawn in her resentment toward one or the other, or both. But yes, I do think she snapped on that morning, if she harmed him and he may have set her off, but he was not the actual reason for her pent-up anger and frustration, just a symptom.

(Although as far as the show goes, very few women profiled on it actually seem to have "snapped" as in many cases, they have intricate long-term plots to do away with their husbands, usually for money or child custody,)

I don't think anything Kyron was doing caused this situation... I think the ongoing problems in the marriage, and possibly issues within the "blended" family pushed her over the edge.. I think she knew of the possibility of a divorce and don't doubt that it was discussed in a heated manner... and who knows what threats could have been thrown back and forth.... I also fear that he may have told Terri that she wouldn't see Kyron anymore..(not sure how legal that is though) and take baby K away.... It is noted that Desiree put a restraining order on him because he threated to take the Kyron from her.. JMO

cluciano63 said:

I don't think we've seen any indication that Terri harbored any ill-will toward Kyron. If she did anything to him, it was an act against either the school or his parents. Kyron was more likely a pawn in her resentment toward one or the other, or both. But yes, I do think she snapped on that morning, if she harmed him and he may have set her off, but he was not the actual reason for her pent-up anger and frustration, just a symptom.


(Although as far as the show goes, very few women profiled on it actually seem to have "snapped" as in many cases, they have intricate long-term plots to do away with their husbands, usually for money or child custody,)

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But if we are to believe she 'snapped', then what would be the point of the doctors appointment excuse? That appointment, real or not, would have to have been set up in advance, and the 'snapping' would have happened on Friday morning. Or I am not really understanding the meaning of snap? It seems to me to be a sudden thing, not a premeditated thing.

I'm not sure the doctor's appointment is even a factor...to me it is one of those "red herring" things...I think the teacher needed that excuse more than Terri did.

Morag said:

But if we are to believe she 'snapped', then what would be the point of the doctors appointment excuse? That appointment, real or not, would have to have been set up in advance, and the 'snapping' would have happened on Friday morning. Or I am not really understanding the meaning of snap? It seems to me to be a sudden thing, not a premeditated thing.

Click to expand...

It can be. There are times I snapped and did something I regret. But there are other times I have "snapped" but later made changes I needed to make to regain my sanity (It wasn't a public snapping, but a snapping inside of my head if that makes sense). I'm thinking this more of a snap and then premeditated planning to regain her sanity than just a momentary snap where she hurt him and then covered it up. Some people are very public and outgoing with snapping, and others bury it deep inside and act like nothing's wrong while they're plotting a way to fix what is wrong and caused them to snap. Sometimes snapping just starts putting things into motion, and sometimes snapping IS the motion. I guess it depends on what definition of snapping we're talking about here.

Just speculating, but whenever I look at pictures of Kyron, it occurs to me how much he looks like Desiree.

I don't know if Terri is a competitive person but she certainly took part in body-building competitions. And she is a pretty woman. Once upon a time, when Desiree was ill, she may have "competed" with her for Kaine...and she won.

She won Desiree's husband, her child, everything. Desiree was sick...Terri was healthy and beautiful....very attractive to men.

Time has passed. If she still feels competitive with Desiree...Terri cannot be too happy now. Now Desiree has a seemingly happy marriage and a job and maybe a lot more personal freedom since neither of her children live with her. Maybe Desiree seems (with two incomes) to have more personal money at her disposal. And Desiree is now the stunningly pretty woman.

Terri is now overweight and unhappy. Even her "sext-ing" does not provide productive resulrs. Maybe Kaine doesn't seem like such a prize. She can't get a job. Maybe she sends her son away to gain more freedom herself....like that annoying Desiree has.

But she is still having to put so much time into Kyron, Desiree's son....who looks so much like her. She's stuck with the burden of Kaine and Desiree's child. Kaine will never let her sent HIM away. He irritates her. His non-perfection at school seems to reflect on her...not his Mother. The "perfect teacher" who wants a job...thinks Kyron needs to be perfect too...to show just how excellent Terri is in all matters related to children.

Maybe with her older son gone, Terri fears losing the support money that may have been at her disposal...another infuriating thing. She should have the job she wants like Desiree does! She looks at Desiree and now feels that she who once competed with her and won hands down...is now losing in every category.

This frustrates and infuriates Terri. And now, if all this were not enough, Kyron , the little ingrate, is saying he wants to live with Desiree! How will THIS look at school, to friends, to Kaine? Much as she'd like to get rid of him..it should be her idea, not this ungrateful kid. After all she's done for him!

And look at him! He looks just like her rival...Desiree...who now has the life that she, Terri, wants and deserves....love, freedom, money, great figure, gorgeous looks.

Yes, I can see her snapping. And I can also see her being able to rationalize that everyone ELSE drove her to it.

Thank you Valhall.. Upon first reading the Oregonian article(which is what Val's article was detailing) Among several things that STOOD OUT to me was the Terri teaching a child with SEVERE EYESIGHT PROBLEMS(DY, herself tells us that Kyron could not see without his glasses&if they were removed he would in noway be able to discern his surroundings or find his way, so I'd say that's pretty severe)and for Terri to be teaching him "sign language"...
~snip~
And she even taught Kyron sign-language when he was little. (By the way, this is very odd to me. Nothing has ever been said that Kyron couldn’t hear so I’m very unclear why she would have spent the time teaching him sign-language, which requires reliance on sight rather than hearing, in “order to communicate with him” as the article reads. Makes no sense at all to me.)
~end snip~
This was terribly odd and wouldn't it have been terribly difficult for a very young one with EXTREME eyesight issues and quite possibly that Terri too "obsessed" over this sign language being learned by Kyron. IMO I could see her being overly hard on him insisting that he learn this because she(as she is known to do)becomes obsessed with certain short term goals. That IMO this would not benefit Kyron in any way(and I know that sign language is often taught to very young children, my son is included as one of them, but my son has 20/20 vision)but for Kyron being quite sight impaired it would not IMO be of great benefit(esp. if it was taught obsessively by Terri in a negative way such as punishment for not "signing" correctly, not picking up on it quickly enough, etc)IMO the main one it benefited was Terri. Just as J*** said in the article "mom was very proud of having taught Kyron sign language at 6mos old"(<-not a direct quote rather paraphrasing very closely what he said) I could see Terri's goal and motive to be a selfish one(certainly wouldn't be the first or last time she'd done such for pure personal gain) I think just as J*** refers to this was prolly something that Terri very much told everyone, thinking just how impressed everyone would be with her teaching this almost blind, practically still a baby something as difficult as sign language.. JMO

Morag said:

...Or I am not really understanding the meaning of snap? It seems to me to be a sudden thing, not a premeditated thing.

Click to expand...

Seems that we're on the same page and taking the word "snap" literally I, too, would regard "snapping" as an immediate and sudden reaction to a situation in which the person feels totally out of control. If Terri is responsible for Kyron's disappearance (or whatever has become of the boy), her actions seem very-well planned and executed. Unless something happened that morning that we don't know about, i.e. Kyron misbehaving or doing something that embarrassed Terri or caused undue stress, I don't feel that she "snapped". jmo

stmarysmead said:

Just speculating, but whenever I look at pictures of Kyron, it occurs to me how much he looks like Desiree.

I don't know if Terri is a competitive person but she certainly took part in body-building competitions. And she is a pretty woman. Once upon a time, when Desiree was ill, she may have "competed" with her for Kaine...and she won.

She won Desiree's husband, her child, everything. Desiree was sick...Terri was healthy and beautiful....very attractive to men.

Time has passed. If she still feels competitive with Desiree...Terri cannot be too happy now. Now Desiree has a seemingly happy marriage and a job and maybe a lot more personal freedom since neither of her children live with her. Maybe Desiree seems (with two incomes) to have more personal money at her disposal. And Desiree is now the stunningly pretty woman.

Terri is now overweight and unhappy. Even her "sext-ing" does not provide productive resulrs. Maybe Kaine doesn't seem like such a prize. She can't get a job. Maybe she sends her son away to gain more freedom herself....like that annoying Desiree has.

But she is still having to put so much time into Kyron, Desiree's son....who looks so much like her. She's stuck with the burden of Kaine and Desiree's child. Kaine will never let her sent HIM away. He irritates her. His non-perfection at school seems to reflect on her...not his Mother. The "perfect teacher" who wants a job...thinks Kyron needs to be perfect too...to show just how excellent Terri is in all matters related to children.

Maybe with her older son gone, Terri fears losing the support money that may have been at her disposal...another infuriating thing. She should have the job she wants like Desiree does! She looks at Desiree and now feels that she who once competed with her and won hands down...is now losing in every category.

This frustrates and infuriates Terri. And now, if all this were not enough, Kyron , the little ingrate, is saying he wants to live with Desiree! How will THIS look at school, to friends, to Kaine? Much as she'd like to get rid of him..it should be her idea, not this ungrateful kid. After all she's done for him!

And look at him! He looks just like her rival...Desiree...who now has the life that she, Terri, wants and deserves....love, freedom, money, great figure, gorgeous looks.

Yes, I can see her snapping. And I can also see her being able to rationalize that everyone ELSE drove her to it.

Click to expand...

I agree that this thought process is very plausible under the circumstances. Another thing I hadn't considered before is whether J's performance at school was also considered by TH to be a poor public reflection on her -- the perfect mom and teacher. I know she said his grades were very poor and she wanted them to improve. Which is totally reasonable and MIGHT even justify moving J so he could attend a different/better school -- depending on the reason why his grades were suffering. But I had not considered the possibility that TH sent him away because she didn't want to have TWO kids performing poorly (academically and/or behaviourally) in the very same school district that she felt she *should be* teaching in. I mean how bad does that look for the perfect parent/teacher? Can't even get her own kids up to snuff. :snooty:

And to clarify, it's not MY opinion that they were misbehaving or doing poorly in school because of anything TH did or didn't do, necessarily. I'm just suggesting her possible frame of mind.

Were things out of control for TH? Did she "snap"?

Click to expand...

I wasn't there during the commission of the crime. I've never met TH.

Thus, without seeing the evidence nor witnessing the crime, how would one know if TH did it?

And how could anyone who's never met TH and hasn't seen the evidence determine her motive?

???

I certainly couldn't.

And TH hasn't disclosed her involvement or motive (if she's involved).

/the end

SmoothOperator said:

Thank you Valhall.. Upon first reading the Oregonian article(which is what Val's article was detailing) Among several things that STOOD OUT to me was the Terri teaching a child with SEVERE EYESIGHT PROBLEMS(DY, herself tells us that Kyron could not see without his glasses&if they were removed he would in noway be able to discern his surroundings or find his way, so I'd say that's pretty severe)and for Terri to be teaching him "sign language"...
~snip~
And she even taught Kyron sign-language when he was little. (By the way, this is very odd to me. Nothing has ever been said that Kyron couldn&#8217;t hear so I&#8217;m very unclear why she would have spent the time teaching him sign-language, which requires reliance on sight rather than hearing, in &#8220;order to communicate with him&#8221; as the article reads. Makes no sense at all to me.)
~end snip~
This was terribly odd and wouldn't it have been terribly difficult for a very young one with EXTREME eyesight issues and quite possibly that Terri too "obsessed" over this sign language being learned by Kyron. IMO I could see her being overly hard on him insisting that he learn this because she(as she is known to do)becomes obsessed with certain short term goals. That IMO this would not benefit Kyron in any way(and I know that sign language is often taught to very young children, my son is included as one of them, but my son has 20/20 vision)but for Kyron being quite sight impaired it would not IMO be of great benefit(esp. if it was taught obsessively by Terri in a negative way such as punishment for not "signing" correctly, not picking up on it quickly enough, etc)IMO the main one it benefited was Terri. Just as J*** said in the article "mom was very proud of having taught Kyron sign language at 6mos old"(<-not a direct quote rather paraphrasing very closely what he said) I could see Terri's goal and motive to be a selfish one(certainly wouldn't be the first or last time she'd done such for pure personal gain) I think just as J*** refers to this was prolly something that Terri very much told everyone, thinking just how impressed everyone would be with her teaching this almost blind, practically still a baby something as difficult as sign language.. JMO

Click to expand...

I have taught sign language to small children. For example, young children with receptive language delays can become etremely frustrated because they can't tell their caregivers what they need. Some examples are preemie children, children with mild autism, and children with neorological damage It's not at all hard to learn for kids, even kids with developmental delays... MOO


I don't know about TH snapping. It's interesting to me that KH said that she was drinking very heavily a few years back, but that she had stopped the heavy drinking ... If true, it makes me wonder i she had some kind of intervention. Therapy and/or AA Sounds like it... Could be that she learned how to better manage her impulses and life... But, I've seen the show (once ), and anything's possible. IMO

ETA I've taught it to preemie kids with damaged eyesight, just wasn't that hard...

All JMO
.

SmoothOperator said:

Thank you Valhall.. Upon first reading the Oregonian article(which is what Val's article was detailing) Among several things that STOOD OUT to me was the Terri teaching a child with SEVERE EYESIGHT PROBLEMS(DY, herself tells us that Kyron could not see without his glasses&if they were removed he would in noway be able to discern his surroundings or find his way, so I'd say that's pretty severe)and for Terri to be teaching him "sign language"...
~snip~
And she even taught Kyron sign-language when he was little. (By the way, this is very odd to me. Nothing has ever been said that Kyron couldn’t hear so I’m very unclear why she would have spent the time teaching him sign-language, which requires reliance on sight rather than hearing, in “order to communicate with him” as the article reads. Makes no sense at all to me.)
~end snip~
This was terribly odd and wouldn't it have been terribly difficult for a very young one with EXTREME eyesight issues and quite possibly that Terri too "obsessed" over this sign language being learned by Kyron. IMO I could see her being overly hard on him insisting that he learn this because she(as she is known to do)becomes obsessed with certain short term goals. That IMO this would not benefit Kyron in any way(and I know that sign language is often taught to very young children, my son is included as one of them, but my son has 20/20 vision)but for Kyron being quite sight impaired it would not IMO be of great benefit(esp. if it was taught obsessively by Terri in a negative way such as punishment for not "signing" correctly, not picking up on it quickly enough, etc)IMO the main one it benefited was Terri. Just as J*** said in the article "mom was very proud of having taught Kyron sign language at 6mos old"(<-not a direct quote rather paraphrasing very closely what he said) I could see Terri's goal and motive to be a selfish one(certainly wouldn't be the first or last time she'd done such for pure personal gain) I think just as J*** refers to this was prolly something that Terri very much told everyone, thinking just how impressed everyone would be with her teaching this almost blind, practically still a baby something as difficult as sign language.. JMO

Click to expand...

I think that he was taught to sign to others- not to look for signs from others. Others could communicate with him by speaking to him.

Is this a trick thread, Kimster? Theorizing about Terri snapping would require me to sleuth persons currently considered off limits.

Although, I'm inclined to say she didn't snap, because if she's guilty this was as premeditated as it gets, IMHO.

Sept 2009 - Kyron back to school.

- Began wanting behavior chart daily & asking Kaine to give consequences for less than green color.

- May have begun sending emails to Desiree with complaints about Kaine, and also saying she should have Kyron's teacher's job.

Nov 2009 - Hires landscaper. May have proposed he murder her husband in exchange for money.

Feb 2010 - Decides, likely with J's dad, that J should go live with her parents. J and Kaine had been 'butting heads'. Terri had a fight with J.


No, I don't think Terri snapped. I'm not even sure all of that happened.

I do know that Kaine said repeatedly for weeks that everything was peachy keen. If she snapped on June 4, then I would have expected him instead to say, "Oh yeah. Things were building up. She was real unhappy. Doing strange things."

But instead, Kaine said he was completely blindsided. Everything was just fine.

Desiree has never said she saw signs of anything building up to snap either.

I'm going to go with what Kaine and Desiree say. I'm a team player.

SmoothOperator said:

Thank you Valhall.. Upon first reading the Oregonian article(which is what Val's article was detailing) Among several things that STOOD OUT to me was the Terri teaching a child with SEVERE EYESIGHT PROBLEMS(DY, herself tells us that Kyron could not see without his glasses&if they were removed he would in noway be able to discern his surroundings or find his way, so I'd say that's pretty severe)and for Terri to be teaching him "sign language"...
~snip~
And she even taught Kyron sign-language when he was little. (By the way, this is very odd to me. Nothing has ever been said that Kyron couldn’t hear so I’m very unclear why she would have spent the time teaching him sign-language, which requires reliance on sight rather than hearing, in “order to communicate with him” as the article reads. Makes no sense at all to me.)
~end snip~
This was terribly odd and wouldn't it have been terribly difficult for a very young one with EXTREME eyesight issues and quite possibly that Terri too "obsessed" over this sign language being learned by Kyron. IMO I could see her being overly hard on him insisting that he learn this because she(as she is known to do)becomes obsessed with certain short term goals. That IMO this would not benefit Kyron in any way(and I know that sign language is often taught to very young children, my son is included as one of them, but my son has 20/20 vision)but for Kyron being quite sight impaired it would not IMO be of great benefit(esp. if it was taught obsessively by Terri in a negative way such as punishment for not "signing" correctly, not picking up on it quickly enough, etc)IMO the main one it benefited was Terri. Just as J*** said in the article "mom was very proud of having taught Kyron sign language at 6mos old"(<-not a direct quote rather paraphrasing very closely what he said) I could see Terri's goal and motive to be a selfish one(certainly wouldn't be the first or last time she'd done such for pure personal gain) I think just as J*** refers to this was prolly something that Terri very much told everyone, thinking just how impressed everyone would be with her teaching this almost blind, practically still a baby something as difficult as sign language.. JMO

Click to expand...

Sign Language has become an important part of language acquisition for many children, not just those with hearing impairments. Many mommy/daddy & me playgroups encourage language acquisition through the use sign language as an accompaniment to commonly sung nursery rhymes, childrens games, etc. TH had a MA. Ed. and more than likely had come across instances where other educators were using sign with typically functioning children, not just those with known or suspected deficits.

In reference to the issue of signing having any benefit to a child with sight impairments .... It is possible for a child with even moderate visual impairments to benefit from using sign. Even if a child does not demonstrate comprehension and proficiency when using sign, the actual physical act of forming gestures/signs while mouthing the words, hearing someone else say those same words, stimulates areas in the brain which are vital to language acquisition, strengthens fine motor skills, and improves ocular motor development.

JMO, but .... TH may have suspected even during Ks infancy that there could be issues with behavior, learning, and development - hence her decision to incorporate sign into Ks routine.

Peeps -- let's keep this thread on topic. I just started a thread on baby sign language here:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112730"]Baby Sign Language - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]