GUILTY UK - S/K Robert Black on trial in the '81 murder of Jennifer Cardy, 9

Rolfe

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I started a thread at JREF on this, but it's not getting a lot of traction. I wonder what posters here think?

Robert Black is currently on trial for the murder of Jennifer Cardy in 1981. Here's the latest news report.

Fuel receipts link driver to Jennifer Cardy's murder

Black has already been found guilty of murdering three girls - Susan Maxwell in 1982, Caroline Hogg in 1983 and Sarah Harper in 1986. He was caught red-handed in 1990 in the act of trying to abduct another girl (Wikipedia quote).

Police suspected Black of the murders of Susan Maxwell, Caroline Hogg and Sarah Harper. They checked his petrol receipts and eventually charged Black with all three murders, in addition to the attempted kidnapping of a 15-year-old girl who had escaped the clutches of a man who had tried to drag her into a van in 1988.

Black stood trial at Newcastle upon Tyne Moot Hall on Wednesday 13 April 1994 and denied the charges. Having sifted through many thousands of petrol-station receipts, the prosecution was able to place him at all the scenes and show the similarities between the three killings and the kidnap of the six-year-old girl who had been rescued. Juries are not usually allowed to know of a defendant's current or past convictions, but in this case the judge allowed it.

I don't believe any positive forensic link has been made between Black and any of these murders. I'm certainly not aware that there is any forensic or eyewitness evidence in the present case. The prosecution merely place him at the scene of the crime (using petrol receipts), and note that the modus operandi is the same in each case.

Is this sufficient to convict beyond reasonable doubt in the case of Jennifer Cardy? (Note that they have already in effect locked him up and thrown away the key on the basis of the other cases. Practically speaking, there's no additional punishment that can be imposed.)

Rolfe.
 
Honestly? I don't feel like I have enough information to make a judgement. It seems like he is probably guilty of a number of these killings, but I don't know enough to decide anything.

It sounds like one of those cases that I would just assume the courts are doing their job correctly.
 
Black is a haunting character, but this prosecution has the "just trying to clear a case off the books" feel to it.
 
I think he's as guilty as hell. However, I don't know how much of that is because of the reporting. I'm really in two minds about whether there is enough evidence to support a conviction "beyond reasonable doubt".

It's almost a statistics question. What are the odds that this guy who absolutely definitely did snatch a girl and tie her up in his delivery van, and whose job took him all over the country - just happened to be right there at the time and place the other girls were murdered, and had nothing to do with it?

I'd say slim, but it's the sort of conundrum you can be wrong about at first glance.
 
I see I'm not getting much traction on this. I think perhaps my concern is, normally a suspect's mere presence in the vicinity of a murder would not be sufficient to convict without anything else. Normally details of a suspect's other convictions would not be allowed to be before the court. The jury would not know.

In this case the details of his previous convictions, in particular the conviction for abducting his last victim, and the fact that his petrol receipts put him in the vicinity of three other similar murders are the mainstay of the prosecution case.

It's not even a habitual pattern of behaviour, like the guy who had the "bad luck" to be falsely accused of date rape several times before the pattern was allowed in evidence and he was convicted. It's just the single red-handed abduction, and then inference from the petrol receipts in all the other cases. It convinces me, but should it?

If we allow the safeguards of the legal system to be waived in this case, is this a dangerous erosion of safeguards that should not be compromised? Is it worth it, just to convict one man?
 
Was just about to post this. He is an evil man and the coincidence is too much. I believe he did it and I hope he never sees natural daylight again
 
I believe there are other cases he was looked at for - can't quite remember where I read it, but Genette Tate, and another disappearance in Norfolk.

Although, Peter Tobin is perhaps a more likely candidate.
 
From the Daily Mail

Black's killing spree was finally ended in 1990 when he was caught red-handed by police with a barely alive six-year-old girl hooded, bound, gagged and stuffed in a sleeping bag in the back of his van in the Scottish village of Stow.
He had sexually assaulted her moments earlier.


Black prided had himself on his encyclopaedic knowledge of the UK's road network but it was one wrong turn that proved his undoing.
The serial killer's decision to double back on himself after snatching the little girl saw him drive straight into the hands of police officers who had just been alerted to a suspected abduction.
He later described that date - Saturday July 14, 1990 - as the day 'the roof fell in'.
The terrified six-year-old was found in the back of his delivery van bound, gagged, hooded and stuffed head first into a sleeping bag. If she had remained in that state, medical experts claimed, she could have been dead within 15 minutes.
Black had sexually assaulted her in the back of his blue Ford Transit moments earlier in a lay-by beside a disused quarry two miles north on the main A7 Galashiels Road.
 
More about this excuse for a human being

"Born in 1947, near Falkirk in Scotland, Black's single mother had him fostered within weeks.

A couple in the West Highlands - the Tulips - took him in but, when they both died within 11 years, he ended up in the children's home in Falkirk where the rape attempt happened.

He was never charged with the attack, only moved to an all-boys home in Musselburgh.

He was to remain there until he was 15 and claims that, during that time, he became the victim of sexual abuse himself at the hands of a male member of staff.

It was in 1963, a year after he left the home, that he was to first face the courts.

Aged just 16, Black lured a seven-year-old girl from a playground with the promise of showing her a box of kittens - instead, she was choked into unconsciousness and violated.

Her teenage attacker left her lying in the darkness of a disused air raid shelter, but Black escaped jail and was only cautioned for lewd and libidinous behaviour.

Three years later, he was reported to the authorities for abusing the daughter of a couple he was lodging with - found guilty of three counts of indecent assault, he was sent to borstal for a year.

"I did not like getting locked up and vowed I'd never get locked up again," Black would later tell police.

He would continue to spend years involved with abusive images of children and spying on young girls at the leisure centre where he worked as a pool attendant."

More at above link
 
Hey everybody I am a newbie and this is my first post on this wonderful site.

Just thought I'd say a few things on this particular case. I live in the same country from where little Jennifer was from. My mother told me about her murder ten years ago exactly this month during the hunt for missing Soham schoolgirls Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman. Child Murder of this kind is thankfully very rare in Northern Ireland. I'm currently researching and writing a book on this very evil individual (Robert Black) and his life and crimes.

I'm particularly looking into other crimes that he may be responsible for. In my opinion, if the full truth regarding the activities of this man ever came to light he would probably not only be the worst serial child killer in UK history but also Europe.

From my research thus far, I personally think there are another three disappearances and murders he should be considered a serious person of interest or a prime suspect. As well as these cases, there is another couple he should be seriously considered for being maybe involved in.

These cases are not only based in Great Britain but mainland Europe as well.

This man is evil personified.
 
Could it be that Robert Black, 68, could be Europe's worst serial killer of children, behind Marc Dutroux, Andres Pandy and Michel Fourniret? (Of course, none of them are bad as Gilles de Rais, but that's a whole other story) Convicted of four murders, suspected of many, many more?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Black_(serial_killer)
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lat...epth-knowledge-of-unsolved-child-murder-cases
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rl-Genette-Tate-disappeared-36-years-ago.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/serial-killer-robert-black-intended-3919891

Black was born in Scotland in 1947. Fostered, he did not fit in at school and bullies called him 'Smelly Robby Tulip' (his foster parents' name). He preferred to hang around with younger children whilst still at school, an indication toward his later life, perhaps, beginning to plant itself?
His foster mother died when Black was 11, which was the worst thing that could have happened to him. A year later, he and two other boys attempted to rape a girl. He was sent to the Red House in Musselburgh, where a male member of staff sexually abused him.
At 15, he left Red House and worked as a delivery boy in Greenock, near Glasgow. He said he molested 30 to 40 girls while out on his rounds, but only caught at 17 when he assaulted a 7-year-old girl.
He then moved back to his town of birth and got a job with a builder's supply company. In 1966, he molested his landlord's nine-year-old daughter. They took no legal action but made him leave the house.
Moving in with another couple in the Highlands, he molested their 7-year-old girl. However, this time, he was arrested and had a year of borstal training. Astonishingly, when he left he worked at a swimming pool upon release. Maybe if the sex offenders' register was public then, he may not have been. This may also have prevented him from killing.
He used to go under the pool and dim the lights so he could watch girls swim. A young girl said he touched her and he lost his job.
When he lived in London he spent a lot of time playing darts. Darts championship Eric Bristow remembers him as a 'loner' who didn't have a girlfriend. In 1976, Black began working as a van driver.

Black has been convicted of four murders - Jennifer Cardy, 9, Northern Ireland, 1981; Susan Maxwell, 11, from the English side of the Scottish borders, 1982; Caroline Hogg, 5, from Edinburgh, 1983; and Sarah Harper, 10, from Leeds, 1986. He was convicted of killing Susan, Caroline and Sarah in 1994, four years after his arrest for abducting and assaulting a 6-year-old girl, and Jennifer's murder in 2011.

However, Black is suspected of child murders going back to 1969 over Europe. I will state the UK murders and say why or why not I think Black killed them.

APRIL FABB, 13, Norfolk - On 8th April 1969, April was delivering a birthday present when she vanished. Her bicycle was found by the side of the road minutes after she was last seen. Black targeted girls on bicycles. April has not been found.

I DO NOT think Black killed her. While it is true the route to April's village is only three long routes from where he lived in London, I have to point out a few discrepancies. April was 5'4, the average WOMAN'S height in 1969 was roughly the same, so she may have looked OLDER than 13. I DO NOT BELIEVE Black willingly targeted teenagers.
He thought Theresa Thornhill, 15, who he attempted to abduct in 1988, was ten due to her height and being underdeveloped. I realise this is flimsy, but read on.
Also, Peter Tobin, who is a year older than Black, holidayed in Norfolk. April was abducted just after Easter. Both visited Norfolk, due Tobin was more likely to be in Norfolk ON THAT DATE. If Tobin was in Norfolk then, in a similar way Black was known to be in Devon in 1978, it remains nigh on impossible that another serial killer would have abducted her.

CHRISTINE MARKHAM, 9, Scunthorpe - Christine disappeared on May 21st 1973, from Humberside in Scunthrope. She bunked off school and wandered around the town, as she had done many times before. She was sighted at the train station several times.

I DO think Black took this girl as she does seem to resemble Black's known victims. Humberside is four to five direct routes from where Black lived in 1973, one option using the M1. It's possible she was taken some miles south before he killed her.

MARY BOYLE, 6, Ireland - Mary Boyle disappeared from Ballyshannon, on March 18th 1977. She was following her uncle on a 450 yard path.

I DO believe Black took her. A year later, he appeared on a Garda sheet for after-hours drinking. He was also noticed by two women when he asked about another girl, when he became angry.

As Mary vanished close to the border, it is likely her body is in Northern Ireland. Given Black's fondness for the Midlands Triangle and wanting to take two girls from the same area, it could be possible her body is near where Jennifer Cardy was found.

GENETTE TATE, 13, Devon - Genette was talking to her friends in Aylesbeare, Devon, on 19th August 1978, before going to deliver newspapers on her bicycle. Her friends heard something and waited before going over. Her bicycle and newspapers were lying on the ground and she had gone.

I DEFINITELY think Black took Genette. She was five foot, attacked from behind, with a similar hairstyle to his known victims. Black had been delivering in Exeter, Devon, that same day. He has been the prime suspect since his attack.

SUZANNE LAWRENCE, 14, Essex - Suzanne was last seen by her sister in Harold Hill, Essex, in July 1979. This was near the route Black took to go back north. He also seemed to 'know about children whose plight never made the headline news', which included Suzanne.

I DO NOT think he took Suzanne. If he went on that route regularly, he may have learnt about her from a local paper. If she never made headline news, she almost certainly would have been mentioned in her local paper. Besides, in the few photographs released of her, she appears her age - 14.

Peter Tobin has been named often as a suspect, so he is a possibility. The route would have taken him from the south to Norfolk. It was summer, so he may have decided to take her. The only problem is, I do not know the exact date Suzanne vanished, no matter how far I've searched. Maybe Tobin might have just wanted a summer holiday?

PATSY MORRIS, 14, Hounslow - Patricia Morris disappeared from her school in June 1980. Her strangled body was found on Hounslow Heath after two days. I believe she was not sexually assaulted.

I DEFINITELY DO NOT think he murdered Patsy. Another girl who looked her age, she was NOT sexually assaulted. Why would Black - or even Tobin, who has also been suspected - take a girl then kill them without sexual pleasure? It makes no sense.

Also, she seemed to know Levi Bellfield, Bus Stop Killer. Some said they dated. He was 12, but I think violent enough to kill.

PAMELA HASTIE, 16, Johnstone - Pamela was killed on 4th November 1981 in Johnstone, near Glasgow. She was found in Rannoch Woods, having been strangled. A man says he drove into someone who resembled Black.

I DEFINITELY DO NOT think Black murdered Pamela. Let me get this out; I am going to state how absolutely impossible this is. Pamela was five years older than his oldest known victim. Pamela did not look like any of his victims. She was not driven several miles away, but strangled near her home. I think that being a November afternoon in Scotland, it was likely dark. So, the likelihood of someone seeing a face and recognizing it clearly after 13 YEARS?

Plus, Tobin was born there and knew the area. He may even have lived there at the time.

TRACEY WATERS, 11, Johnstone - Tracey was strangled on Valentine's Day 1983 in the same town as Pamela. She was not sexually assaulted.

I DO NOT think Black killed Tracey. Her uncle, who was accused and ran away in 2001 and remains missing, is a much more likely suspect. She was not sexually assaulted, which means it was probably not a sexual crime.

Previously, I said that Black may have decided to go back to where he'd previously abducted a girl. However, the likelihood of him committing a crime in the same town where another serial killer lived and possibly killed, in a crime where the victim's uncle is a more likely suspect?

No.

LISA HESSION, 14, Leigh - Lisa Hession was coming home from a Christmas party on 8th December 1984. She was sexually assaulted and strangled in an alleyway with her own t-shirt. Her outfit may have made her appear older than her age.

I DO NOT think Black killed Lisa. As stated, she may have looked older and it was late (10.30) and dark. As stated in another forum, I believe Tobin killed her.

Here are some non-British possibilities mentioned at one time or another.

Bernadette Connolly, 10, 1970 - http://www.sligotoday.ie/details.php?id=28979

Cheryl Morrien, 7, 1986 - http://doenetwork.org/cases-int/422dfnet.html

Virginie Delmas, 10, Perrine Vigneron, 7, Hemma Davy-Greedharry, 10 and Sabine Dumont, 9, 1987 - http://pipiou.over-blog.com/article-disparues-de-seine-et-marne-crimes-appel-a-temoins-45144225.html

Also, here are a few more I'm just throwing out there that remind me of his known and suspected crimes.

Nathalie Mazot, France, 1982 - http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/1588dffra.html

Nathalie Martins-Laevens, France, 1980 - http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/2125dffra.html

Charazed Bendouiou, France, 1987 - http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/1214dffra.html

Therese Johannessen, Norway, 1988 - http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/1093dfnor.html

Beata Radke, Poland, 1975 - http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/431dfpol.html

Anna Sapiela, Poland, 1985 - http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/1228dfpol.html

Marianne Decker, Germany, 1971 - http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/714dfdeu.html

Ramona Herling, Germany, 1989 - http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/416dfdeu.html

Sarah Obersen, Switzerland, 1985 - http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/413dfche.html
 
I haven't read up on this guy for a while but I do remember that he was a poi in several unsolved child murders.
 
I do believe Robert Black is responsible for the disappearance of April Fabb which i believe may of been his first murder and he definately should be considered the prime suspect in the mary boyle case and is most likely to be responsible for dozens of unsolved child murders. I however do not believe Black is Responsible for Genette Tates disappearance i believe Ian Bealey should be the prime suspect in this case.
 
This piece of evil was tried in Newcastle court of law, this is where I grew up and a coworker was called up for jury duty. The court case was was so disturbing, he had a breakdown and was on medical leave for 2 years :-(
 
This piece of evil was tried in Newcastle court of law, this is where I grew up and a coworker was called up for jury duty. The court case was was so disturbing, he had a breakdown and was on medical leave for 2 years :-(
i can imagine it wouldnt be easy for anyone to here what that evil did to those girls. Whats still so appalling is there are families out there with loved ones missing who this monster has killed who will probably never know what happened to there loved ones.
 
This piece of evil was tried in Newcastle court of law, this is where I grew up and a coworker was called up for jury duty. The court case was was so disturbing, he had a breakdown and was on medical leave for 2 years :-(

Your poor coworker! I saw a documentary about him earlier and the creepiest thing about his voice is that it's so normal - he sounds like your friend or your dad's friend. I just can't believe he's responsible for so much misery!

I don't think he took April; I will keep saying it, she had longer hair than shown in her photo, but she looked her age whereas Genette didn't, yes, she was on a bicycle, but Tobin is more likely to have been there considering the date - plus, if April is found further north (Black lived in London at the time), especially if she's found in or near Glasgow, the finger could point more to Tobin.

I do think he may have had a hand in the abductions of Ramona Herling and Nathalie Mazot, however. Natalie vanished an almost straight route to the Dordognes where Black visited (like Genette, she was small for her age). It's going to difficult to look at these because of the language barrier and foreign legal issues.

I don't think anyone thinks he killed Lisa Hession any more.

For some reason, a few websites still list Colette Aram and Marion Crofts as Black's victims when it's been proven they aren't.
 
remember Robert blacks first attack on a child was at the age of 12. So from a very early age Black was quite capable of harming and killing a child. We also know that Black was given a fine for driving without a driving licence 4 years before he got his driving licence. So Black may have been killing from a very early age.
 
Robert Black has died today. As mentioned in the article at the link, he probably takes a lot of secrets to the grave.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3396070/Convicted-child-killer-Robert-Black-kidnapped-abused-murdered-four-young-girls-died-prison.html

Notorious child murderer Robert Black, who was jailed for life for killing four children in the 1980s, has died in prison.

Serial child killer Black, 68, originally of Grangemouth, in the Forth Valley, abducted and abused young girls from across the UK before murdering them and was serving 12 life sentences for his crimes.

The former delivery driver died of natural causes in Maghaberry prison in Northern Ireland.

...
 

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