"Jersey" and MW #3

beach · Dec 13, 2011

Please continue here.

Please remember the special rules for this case. You can read them right here:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7311632#post7311632"]Etiquette & Information - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

Remember the TOPIC and discuss accordingly.

The majority of the last 50 posts on the previous thread (#2) were Off Topic. Don't copy any posts over from thread #2 that do not discuss the connection between Jersey and MW.

:tyou:

hambirg · Dec 13, 2011

Carried over form the other thread. . .

cityslick said:
Lets take the parents out of it for a second (there is plenty of speculation for them already).

If the perp had abducted BL but needed assistance, perhaps they thought about someone who would be able to help them, such as Jersey. The call to the phone perhaps was meant to locate Jersey.

But I still think, if it was a SODDI, that they had to have intimate knowledge of the Bradley/Irwin household. Did DB or JI ever stop into the bar? What about SB? :waitasec:

cityslick · Dec 13, 2011

hambirg said:
Carried over form the other thread. . .

But I still think, if it was a SODDI, that they had to have intimate knowledge of the Bradley/Irwin household. Did DB or JI ever stop into the bar? What about SB? :waitasec:

What do you mean by 'intimate' knowledge? Like a layout? The house isn't very big, most robberies try to look for things out in the open. IDM (and others) have also mentioned there were multiple access points to the house.

In da Middle · Dec 13, 2011

Ok, I just have to restate something I said yesterday. Upon thinking about the sequence of events that first week, I think it was Friday night I was asked about Jersey and not the first night like I thought. I was getting things all screwed up in my head as we have talked to LE on several different occasions. The neighbors by the lawn watering house did though tell LE initially about Jersey immediately after Lisa was reported missing and LE was going around asking questions. I didn't connect them asking me about Jersey to the 'handyman' though because the description that was being given out by the media did not match the image I was shown for Jersey, nor was I given the description of 'handyman'. It took me a few days of wondering if that 'handyman' was Jersey and then I found out it was. I also thought LE was asking me about a Johnny Tango, not Tanko. I guess I wasn't alone in that thought either as several heard Tango instead also. The neighbors of the lawn watering house were supposedly describing a handyman in his 20's with no name attached according to the media, I was given the description of a bike riding thief that appeared to be in his 40's that went by the name Jersey or Johnny Tango.

Whisperer · Dec 13, 2011

I get the impression JT would be much more interested in stealing objects/cash. A ten month old would slow him down. I can't see him and MW as being involved. Why would the perp need anyone's assistance? A 25# child is very easy to put into a duffle bag and go.

MW and Jersey just complicate a relatively easy disposal.

In da Middle · Dec 13, 2011

hambirg said:
Carried over form the other thread. . .

But I still think, if it was a SODDI, that they had to have intimate knowledge of the Bradley/Irwin household. Did DB or JI ever stop into the bar? What about SB? :waitasec:

I too, think if it was a SODDI it was not some random stranger. I have always thought this. It had to be somebody that knew a lot of things about that night IMO. And if it was a SODDI and it was somebody familiar with the family, DNA wouldn't rule them out as it could have been there at other times also. DNA could only be useful in this situation if it was a stranger SODDI IMO. The light switches may not be useful if JI already went through the house at first turning off the lights.

cityslick · Dec 13, 2011

Whisperer said:
I get the impression JT would be much more interested in stealing objects/cash. A ten month old would slow him down. I can't see him and MW as being involved. Why would the perp need anyone's assistance? A 25# child is very easy to put into a duffle bag and go.

MW and Jersey just complicate a relatively easy disposal.

MW (and you can say in some ways Jersey due to his track record) are involved because it was her number that was dialed that night. IMO that was not a random number being dialed.

cityslick · Dec 13, 2011

In da Middle said:
I too, think if it was a SODDI it was not some random stranger. I have always thought this. It had to be somebody that knew a lot of things about that night IMO. And if it was a SODDI and it was somebody familiar with the family, DNA wouldn't rule them out as it could have been there at other times also. DNA could only be useful in this situation if it was a stranger SODDI IMO. The light switches may not be useful if JI already went through the house at first turning off the lights.

I what complicates things like DNA is there were multiple people in and out of the house all day prior to BL going missing. Everyone from the parents/PN/SB/SB's daughter/anyone else we don't know. That's a lot of DNA co-mingling in that house.

Minette · Dec 13, 2011

I really would like to know whether there was any unaccounted for DNA found in the house. Jersey's prints would be on file with LE (convicted felon) but I do not know if MO or NJ standardly performs DNA collection for felony arrestees.

Edited to add:

I answered my own question, at least partly. Both NJ and MO have passed a law allowing LE to collect DNA on felony arrests. Do know know when those laws were enacted, though. http://dnasaves.org/states.php

dog.gone.cute · Dec 13, 2011

Whisperer said:
I get the impression JT would be much more interested in stealing objects/cash. A ten month old would slow him down. I can't see him and MW as being involved. Why would the perp need anyone's assistance? A 25# child is very easy to put into a duffle bag and go.

MW and Jersey just complicate a relatively easy disposal.

:rocker:

BBM: I totally agree ...

:rocker:

matou · Dec 13, 2011

Jersey, the bike riding thief. I totally forgot about this. So Jersey rode a bike to get around mainly, I guess. The story of the swollen knee because of being hit by a car makes a bit of sense now, in that he could have been on a bike and knocked over, or he just wiped out on his bike. He claims he was hit by a car while walking on Lister.

Anyway, here is the link to Ron Rugen's blog for more information about Jersey and his swollen knee: http://kansascitypi.blogspot.com/2011/12/progress-for-lisa-irwin.html

madge · Dec 13, 2011

Why would the neighbors who used Jersey and trusted him describe him as a 20 year old?

Also, as for the co mingled DNA etc in the home, that is why LE wants to talk with DB and JI again, they have repeatedly said they need to know who was in and out of that house that evening. They need to rule people out but they can't move out with the case as long as this hangs out there.

The eyewitness on the motorcyle never ID'd Jersey either as the baby carrier, he ID's someone ELSE who lives in the neighborhood. He actually ruled Jersey out because it seems Jersey photo was in there as well (if I remember correctly)

Minette · Dec 13, 2011

madge said:
Why would the neighbors who used Jersey and trusted him describe him as a 20 year old?

Also, as for the co mingled DNA etc in the home, that is why LE wants to talk with DB and JI again, they have repeatedly said they need to know who was in and out of that house that evening. They need to rule people out but they can't move out with the case as long as this hangs out there.

The eyewitness on the motorcyle never ID'd Jersey either as the baby carrier, he ID's someone ELSE who lives in the neighborhood. He actually ruled Jersey out because it seems Jersey photo was in there as well (if I remember correctly)

Good question about the age thing! The only thing I can figure is based on the various mugshots that have been posted--depending on how long is hair is, etc. he looks like a completely different person. That might have complicated the photo ID, as well.

I am still wondering about why LE is apparently so sure that someone other than they've already been told about was in the house. So I keep coming back to DNA. Or possibly someone told them that they observed someone that DB did not mention going in. But in that case, as SB was there until fairly late, wouldn't she know about it as well? I guess she could have told LE about someone else coming by or that someone was supposed to stop by, but if LE had a witness to DB covering up the presence of someone being in the house then you'd think they would have confronted her about it/arrested her. Plus, according to Ron Rugen SB & DB are still friendly, which seems unlikely if she is going to be used as a witness against DB.

madge · Dec 13, 2011

Minette said:
Good question about the age thing! The only thing I can figure is based on the various mugshots that have been posted--depending on how long is hair is, etc. he looks like a completely different person. That might have complicated the photo ID, as well.

I am still wondering about why LE is apparently so sure that someone other than they've already been told about was in the house. So I keep coming back to DNA. Or possibly someone told them that they observed someone that DB did not mention going in. But in that case, as SB was there until fairly late, wouldn't she know about it as well? I guess she could have told LE about someone else coming by or that someone was supposed to stop by, but if LE had a witness to DB covering up the presence of someone being in the house then you'd think they would have confronted her about it/arrested her. Plus, according to Ron Rugen SB & DB are still friendly, which seems unlikely if she is going to be used as a witness against DB.

I am beginning to think they have DNA not connected to anyone in the home and they'd like to know for sure who was in and out of there so they can ask for DNA samples.

I don't think SB has been forthright. IMHO the foursome of DB, JI, SB and JB may have some skeletons that none of them want falling out so it's a "keep your mouth shut kinda thing"

Don't believe a stranger abducted her and since the family says they don't know Jersey or that he's ever been in there home I just dont' believe he took the baby. Again, nobody (a thief I mean) walks in a house with all the lights on ...they just move to one that is dark.

Detective Klimpt · Dec 13, 2011

madge said:
Again, nobody (a thief I mean) walks in a house with all the lights on ...they just move to one that is dark.

The lights were on when JI came home, but could it be that:

1) the lights were out went DB went to bed (as per SB).
2) the BL death/abduction/disposal took place with lights out
3) one of the kids got up to go potty or back to his room and turned on the lights but this was after BL was gone.

I don't believe an intruder OR DB turned those lights on, nor do I believe DB went to bed with them on.

Donjeta · Dec 13, 2011

Detective Klimpt said:
The lights were on when JI came home, but could it be that:

1) the lights were out went DB went to bed (as per SB).
2) the BL death/abduction/disposal took place with lights out
3) one of the kids got up to go potty or back to his room and turned on the lights but this was after BL was gone.

I don't believe an intruder OR DB turned those lights on, nor do I believe DB went to bed with them on.

I don't believe it's the kids who turned on the lights on their way to go potty because of the odd assortment of the lights being on, according to JI.

[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7247895&postcount=265"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Live MSM coverage on Baby Lisa 18 October 2011[/ame]
Quoting WOO:

Per JI - the lights that were on were:
lamp in front livingroom
2 lights in kitchen
the accent lights and the "pumpkin" on in the computer room

DB doesn't remember turning them off - the neighbor told her that she turned them off.

I think somewhere it was said that the light in Lisa's room was also on.

I am not quite sure what the layout of the home is but I'm pretty certain that the children wouldn't need to put on a pumpkin in the computer room on their way to the bathroom.

The intruder sounds pretty unlikely to do that either...

Imo the most logical thing would be that DB forgot them on or got up later and needed some lights. Maybe she doesn't remember.

madge · Dec 13, 2011

always found it odd that SB says she had some kind of "signal" with DB about lights being off or on in the house.

Detective Klimpt · Dec 13, 2011

From the view that SB has of the Irwin house, is she able to tell if even one little light is on, like for example the pumpkin light? I have a small ranch house similar to the Irwins. From the front of my house, you cannot see if my bedroom or bathroom light is on. From the back of my house, you cannot see if the other bedroom or bathroom light is on. Get my drift?

Donjeta, I'm willing to buy the fact that DB left some lights on when she went to bed intoxicated. I am not willing to buy that she did something with Lisa and left the lights on after doing it, and then went back to bed with lights on. Possible, but unlikely and stupid. On the other hand, I can't buy into an intruder turning on the lights or coming into a house with the lights on.

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Donjeta · Dec 13, 2011

JMO. If she did something to Lisa it was probably DB herself who checked her voicemail too, so she was up shortly before JI came home. He might have interrupted her. If she heard him driving into the yard it was too late to go putting the lights off because he could have noticed that and she couldn't pretend to be asleep if she'd just turned off the lights.

GoodGurl · Dec 13, 2011

Donjeta said:
JMO. If she did something to Lisa it was probably DB herself who checked her voicemail too, so she was up shortly before JI came home. He might have interrupted her. If she heard him driving into the yard it was too late to go putting the lights off because he could have noticed that and she couldn't pretend to be asleep if she'd just turned off the lights.

Yes that. Or - going to the dark side - it could have been part of a plan to claim kidnapping (lights on, door open, screen smushed...) and it was staged.

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