Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

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SoSueMe

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Trial Discussion Thread:

reposting a few of the warnings:

Okay everybody - LISTEN UP! We are not bashing, accusing or blaming Tori's family here. It won't be allowed.

Children walk home from school every day without incident. Parents are not perfect, it's just not possible. Tori's parents DID NOT do this to her. TLM and an accomplice DID. That is where the blame goes.

We had a lot of family bashing in the early parts of this investigation after Tori went missing and a lot of baseless accusations - NONE OF WHICH PROVED TO BE TRUE. Victim and family bashing will not be allowed during this trial.

Thank you,
Salem

---------------------------------


As some of you may have noticed, the members following this case are dropping in numbers. It's disheartening to us because we need and welcome discussion of both sides of every issue on Websleuths.

Zero tolerance means ZERO tolerance. Please discuss this case with respect to your fellow members. Subtle and veiled harassment and/or talking in code about other members will not be tolerated.

A word of caution on the Alerts in this forum. If you alert a post, make sure it is a clear violation of our Terms of Service. A difference of opinion is not a violation of TOS.

Please note that everything discussed in court and printed/tweeted is now within the realm of discussion. WS has never and does not now have a policy of "innocent until proven guilty." That is for the court room. Here, we discuss, speculate, theorize and judge according to the opinions we develop from following the case.

Keeping that in mind, abuse of our alert system is a good way to find yourself in timeout or worse. Abuse of the alert systems includes, but is not limited to:

Alerting repeatedly on the same poster;
Demanding a specific outcome;
Alerting on the same post more than once.

Once you have alerted a post, move on and don't question the decisions of our Administrators, Moderators or Owners.

Following this trial is very important to our members and we're going to see that they have their day in court. The "zero tolerance" policy in this forum will continue and it will be enforced.

Thank you and please carry on.
Sue aka SoSueMe
Websleuths Co-Owner

------

Please keep discussion focused on what has been presented in testimony and remember to link up as the partial publication ban is still in place
 
I'm creating the thread in advance, so not sure where the Defense stands right now. But this is day 2 of their case in chief.

Salem

ETA: Scratch the above. This thread is for the weekend before CLOSING ARGUMENTS begin. The case is wrapping up. Defense will give Closings on Monday, May 6th; Crown is scheduled to follow on Tues. May 7th, Jury Instructions on Wednesday & Thurs., May 8th & 9th and then the jury will begin deliberations.

Praying for justice for Tori,

Salem
 
Good Morning!


toristafford.jpg



I can't believe there is another delay!
 
I thought the defence was to do closing arguments today. No? When did that change?
 
I assume it was announced yesterday as thats when it was posted here.
 
Days and days and days of legal arguments.

I don't recall in the US that legal arguments aren't public, and often they give a more complete understanding of why the Crown asked this or the defense didn't ask that.

It is really too bad, Canadians aren't considered mature enough to watch the trial live.

Big "nanny" state in Canada.

We are the government..........you have nothing to fear..............:)

JMO.......
 
This is a REMINDER - Do NOT BASH any member of the family. Do NOT insinuate that any member of the family is responsible for what happened to Victoria. It will NOT BE TOLERATED.

Unless or until such a charge can be confirmed by media or LE such accusations and insinuations will result in TOs for the poster. Tara admitted that she used drugs and had met CM. That is the testimony. That can be discussed, but taking it further and insinuating that Tara is in anyway responsible, will not be allowed.

Thanks,

Salem
 
Where is everybody? <modsnip>, lol? Or is everyone else trying to catch up, like me?
 
Been posting on the previous thread all morning, I didn't see it moved over this morning, it kept saying no current thread??? No wonder everyone wasn't there.
 
I have been thinking about the remote farm lane and found myself wondering about some things.

IF MR knew about this farm lane from his work in the area, it is quite probable that he knew about many others in the area.

Why would he pick a lane that was right across from a house? Anyone from that house could have seen him to in and called the farmer.

People living in the country know who owns the land around them, and will tell each other if they spot someone entering someone else's land.

Often, the land owners are concerned with illegal dumping and don't want their property to become home for cast away junk or construction material.

The lane is also quite narrow and only one lane for the majority of it.

If the farmer had pulled down that lane in his truck..........MR had nowhere to go.

No farmer is simply going to go in and listen to a BS answer and drive away.

They would take a look around and then follow the people out, while noting their licence plate number.

In my opinion, MR took a big chance going down that lane, if his intention was to be there awhile.

JMO..............
 
Questions for those who believe Tori was targeted by TLM...

If TLM "knew" Tori, wouldn't TLM also know that she always walked home with her brother? How was she planning to separate them to get Tori alone?

And again if TLM knew Tori, why would she lie about it and why would Tara testify to the same? I think if TLM could admit to "savagely beating to death" a little girl, why would she lie about it being a random child that happened to be standing alone (probably waiting or looking for DS)? And for what reason would TLM even want to lie about it?

I just can't wrap my head around Tori being targeted! Thanks for any insight...
 
Are you bored? If so, have you seen this:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/offbeat/story/2012/05/03/video-lion-zebra-toddler-portland.html


Just had to post it cuz it was wee bit funny.

No, I'm too busy trying to catch up to be bored! ;)

I saw that on the news last night. It's funny, but kind of freaky--I can't believe the parents were just calmly filming it. If that was my baby, I'd be grabbing him and moving him away from the hungry lion, just from instinct, even though I'd know the lion couldn't get him. I also feel sort of bad for the lion--he thought he was going to get a nice zebra treat. Somebody feed that poor thing, lol!
 
It was suggested in the previous thread that the defence might have presented so little evidence because an appeal would be possible after a lot of banned information would become available once this trial is over. It was also asked whether Desrtine would still be paid by Legal Aid. Does anyone have any answers or options? Who pays for a prisoner's defence on appeal? Still Legal Aid, or does the money come straight from the taxpayers?
 
I have been thinking about the remote farm lane and found myself wondering about some things.

IF MR knew about this farm lane from his work in the area, it is quite probable that he knew about many others in the area.

Why would he pick a lane that was right across from a house? Anyone from that house could have seen him to in and called the farmer.

People living in the country know who owns the land around them, and will tell each other if they spot someone entering someone else's land.

Often, the land owners are concerned with illegal dumping and don't want their property to become home for cast away junk or construction material.

The lane is also quite narrow and only one lane for the majority of it.

If the farmer had pulled down that lane in his truck..........MR had nowhere to go.

No farmer is simply going to go in and listen to a BS answer and drive away.

They would take a look around and then follow the people out, while noting their licence plate number.

In my opinion, MR took a big chance going down that lane, if his intention was to be there awhile.

JMO..............

I believe he picked that lane because he knew about the area at the end, where Tori was found. He knew it wasn't visible from the road. He may also have known the land was owned by a mennonite farmer who by all accounts did not have a truck and drove a horse and buggy. Seems like MR was into taking chances anyway if you look at how many women he had on the string at the same time.
 
Questions for those who believe Tori was targeted by TLM...

If TLM "knew" Tori, wouldn't TLM also know that she always walked home with her brother? How was she planning to separate them to get Tori alone?

And again if TLM knew Tori, why would she lie about it and why would Tara testify to the same? I think if TLM could admit to "savagely beating to death" a little girl, why would she lie about it being a random child that happened to be standing alone (probably waiting or looking for DS)? And for what reason would TLM even want to lie about it?

I just can't wrap my head around Tori being targeted! Thanks for any insight...

well put it this way..if TLM had picked TS up OUTSIDE the school the chances are she might have seen that the child was alone BUT she was BAREFACED enough to go inside the school and nab TS..how did she not know that maybe the Grandmother was outside waiting in a car. If TM was outside and the fact she knew TM I think she would have had second thoughts...do you think she entered that school and went up to other children and asked them if they were waiting for anyone and then stuck gold with TS when she answered NO..IF TS was supposed to wait for her brother to pick her up why wouldn't TS say that to TLM, if that were the case...I don't think the TS was going to wait for her brother...that may not have been the plan or else TS has a short attention span and forgot...I believe that somehow that day TLM found out that TS was going to walk home by herself and that is why TLM pounced and more than likely she told TS that TM, her mother sent her to pick her up...JMO simple as that...I will admit that the teachers were lax etc. and the school does not want to take any blame for what happened...When I used to pick my grandson up from his school when his parents could not make it, my name was on a list and even though the teacher knew me, because I was not the parent I still had to sign a paper, signing him out... This is in Ontario and I would think most school would follow this procedure...If I had been the only one picking him up on a daily basis I more than likely would not have had to sign him out...just saying....someone was lax that day all the way down the line and some people are lying and still are....JMO covering their *advertiser censored* so to speak...for whatever reasons....JMO
 
When someone gets arrested for a crime like this, I think the natural tendency is to believe LE must have absolute proof the accused did it...........so most people have absolute certainty of guilt at that point in time.

Exhibit 1............the public outrage and condemnation of MR as soon as he was arrested.

Lots of rumors etc start swirling and that affects my opinion, but we have to presume the jury heard none of it..........so we can still enter the trial from a position of absolute guilt.

The trial starts.........and TLM takes the stand. I listen to her background, and Derstine shedding light on issues of credibility.

I listen to the Crown experts.........lots of evidence presented.........but Derstine manages to get them to admit they have no conclusive proof of a sexual assault........

By now, my belief in absolute guiilt is starting to erode. It now sits at the point where I am "sure" MR is guilty.

I listen to the cellphone records.........and understand MR was there and it corroborates that part of TLM's testimony. I remain "sure" of his guilt..........since the defense doesn't argue the evidence to any great extent.

I watch the video.....but all they show of MR is going to use ATMs. The rest is about TLM during the abduction and the HD store.

Still...........I am "sure" of his guilt.

When I start to consider the evidence, I realize that much of the Crown scientific evidence was non conclusive. The pea coat, the sexual assault, the phone records,..............all non conclusive. There are reasons there is no evidence and why no evidence would be expected..........but that doesn't mean the evidence was ever there to start with.

No proof is no proof.

Then there is the blood spot..........I am now solidly "sure" MR is guilty, but then I learn there is MR sperm all over the back of the front seats.........back to only "sure" he is guilty on the meter.

Then the defense puts a witness up who says she saw TLM entering the school................Huh?............that is a direct contradiction on two different things that TLM stated on the witness stand.

She said she was outside beside a tree....waiting for the first child to come by, and she said she wasn't walking in a hurry with obedient VS following behind.

The witness testimony says that TLM isn't telling the truth on either of those things. If TLM lied about who committed the murder, and where she met VS, and how she walked away with VS down the sidewalk.........what else is she lying about?

Now my guilt meter has fallen below "sure" and is somewhere around "most likely" guilty.

At this point............that would fall below the beyond a reasonable doubt threshold.

The defense and Crown still have their key summaries to give.

If either falters.........it would move the guilt meter either way.

JMO.........
 
Questions for those who believe Tori was targeted by TLM...

If TLM "knew" Tori, wouldn't TLM also know that she always walked home with her brother? How was she planning to separate them to get Tori alone?

And again if TLM knew Tori, why would she lie about it and why would Tara testify to the same? I think if TLM could admit to "savagely beating to death" a little girl, why would she lie about it being a random child that happened to be standing alone (probably waiting or looking for DS)? And for what reason would TLM even want to lie about it?

I just can't wrap my head around Tori being targeted! Thanks for any insight...

well put it this way..if TLM had picked TS up OUTSIDE the school the chances are she might have seen that the child was alone BUT she was BAREFACED enough to go inside the school and nab TS..how did she not know that maybe the Grandmother was outside waiting in a car. If TM was outside and the fact she knew TM I think she would have had second thoughts...do you think she entered that school and went up to other children and asked them if they were waiting for anyone and then stuck gold with TS when she answered NO..IF TS was supposed to wait for her brother to pick her up why wouldn't TS say that to TLM, if that were the case...I don't think the TS was going to wait for her brother...that may not have been the plan or else TS has a short attention span and forgot...I believe that somehow that day TLM found out that TS was going to walk home by herself and that is why TLM pounced and more than likely she told TS that TM, her mother sent her to pick her up...JMO simple as that...I will admit that the teachers were lax etc. and the school does not want to take any blame for what happened...When I used to pick my grandson up from his school when his parents could not make it, my name was on a list and even though the teacher knew me, because I was not the parent I still hadto sign a paper, signing him out... This is in Ontario and I would think most school would follow this procedure...If I had been the only one picking him up on a daily basis I more than likely would not have had to sign him out...just saying....someone was lax that day all the way down the line and some people are lying and still are....JMO covering their *advertiser censored* so to speak...for whatever reasons....JMO
 
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