Garrotte

I have followed this case off and on since it began, although I dont post very much, and I admit I havent read these forums for awhile. I tend to believe that Patsy is guilty at the very least of a cover up, and I do believe that JBR's molestation occurred prior to the murder as well as at the time of the murder, and is a big factor in all of this. So that is kinda where I am coming from....

However...my big problem with this whole thing is and always has been the freaking garrotte...which, by the way isnt really a garrotte at all. I cant figure out why this thing exists. I dont believe it was used to kill her....why would someone fashion something like that when they could just as easily strangle her manually....also, the head injury was fatal in and of itself.

If it was used only after the fact in terms of staging... I cant imagine who would think of such a thing? And why? I could see tying her up maybe....and I can see the duct tape...but why this odd broken paintbrush, long cord thing? I dont believe for the life of me that this thing was simply staging. It is too bizarre. So what does that leave? It had to have some reason, some purpose.

I suppose it could be some type of torture device....and I know some think it was used in a really sick sex game but if this was one of the parents then I find both of those a big stretch. (although as a counselor I dont find the molestation a stretch) And if it was an intruder why did he leave it behind...and how would he get involved in something as prolonged and elaborate as that while still in the house? And why did PR cover up for him, because I really really think she wrote that note. So that leads me back to the parents and I cant rationalize that garrotte with either of them. Unless it had some other purpose that I am not thinking of.

So ....if anyone can rationally explain the garrotte type thing please do!

The only somewhat sensible thing I have come up with is that it was used to hang her in some fashion. I have wondered if she could have been displayed "crucifixion" style....maybe PR had some disassociative religious thing either during or after her death and the SBTC was "Saved by the cross" which ties in with the way she was found...cross like? Maybe John didnt want her found that way so he "cut her down" (per John Walsh) and moved her. JBR displayed as Christ would certainly have pointed to Patsy.

I know the livor doesnt jive with this, but does anyone know...if you are killed say at midnight,and someone moves you 11 hours later and you lie in a different position for 2 more hours, could that change livor to some extent? I dont know enough about autopsies to know the answer.

(The only other possible explanation I have thought of (and I dont even like to post it as it involves a child) is that Burke did this. Maybe they were playing some odd game that kids play, like you be the dog and I will lead you around, and maybe he got mad at her and hit her really hard on the head....and the rest is cover up. (the "molestation" could have been somewhat innocent "playing Dr") But I still have a problem with this because why did the parents leave the thing on her?! See why this case makes me crazy?

The arms were found straight up beside the head. If an unconscious or dead body is laid on the ground with the arms up like that, the arms will flex at the elbows and shoulders, they won't remain straight. They have to be held straight. The means to hold the arms straight were found on the body: the wrist ligatures. It can be considered that the neck ligature had the same purpose: posing. There is evidence of two attacks to the neck. An initial strangulation may have preceeded the final positioning of the neck cord. That cord may or may not have been used in the strangulation. If the cord is pulled up behind the head, the 17" cord puts the handle at the level of the wrists. The paint brush handle could have been placed in a holder or one end of it into a hole and the wrist cords wrapped around that device. The missing broken end could still be in a hole somewhere.

A gibbet was a device use to display criminals after execution. The body was hung from a beam projecting from a scaffold. Gibbets are mentioned in The Prime Of Miss Jean Brodie.

JonBenet's body could have been displayed for the perp horizontally or at an angle and still fulfill the "hanging" image without swinging free.

I think Patsy is dissociative.

CYril Wecht was on the radio here in Denver last week, and he went off about how minimal the vaginal damage was. I think sex has it's role in this crime but it is ancillary to the major themes refered to in the ransom note.

Elisea said:

(The only other possible explanation I have thought of (and I dont even like to post it as it involves a child) is that Burke did this. Maybe they were playing some odd game that kids play, like you be the dog and I will lead you around, and maybe he got mad at her and hit her really hard on the head....and the rest is cover up. (the "molestation" could have been somewhat innocent "playing Dr") But I still have a problem with this because why did the parents leave the thing on her?! See why this case makes me crazy?

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There ARE those people who think the garrotte was used in some kind of sex game, possibly involving Burke.

Another explaination is the garrote was used to cover up some other marks that were present on her neck. Dr. Spitz saw evidence of prior strangulation on her neck, possibly from her shirt collar.

The important thing to note about the garrote is while it left marks at the skin-level on her neck, it did no damage at all to the internal organs inside her neck. That's impossible if someone dies of ligature strangulation.

Elisea said:

The only somewhat sensible thing I have come up with is that it was used to hang her in some fashion. I have wondered if she could have been displayed "crucifixion" style....maybe PR had some disassociative religious thing either during or after her death and the SBTC was "Saved by the cross" which ties in with the way she was found...cross like? Maybe John didnt want her found that way so he "cut her down" (per John Walsh) and moved her. JBR displayed as Christ would certainly have pointed to Patsy.

I know the livor doesnt jive with this, but does anyone know...if you are killed say at midnight,and someone moves you 11 hours later and you lie in a different position for 2 more hours, could that change livor to some extent? I dont know enough about autopsies to know the answer.

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Welcome, Elisea. You make some very very good points. (BrotherMoon will love you, btw, with your statement about Patsy/Christ/JBR.) The crucifixion style hanging is thought provoking. I have always ascribed to the belief that she was hanging, even in some minimal way (due to the livor) because of John Walsh's statement. That would make "saved by the cross" have more meaning than anything else I've ever read or considered. That could be seen two ways: one, that if the family killed or staged the scene, they could have pulled from their religious background to make it appear to be a sacrificial killing; or, two, the intruder perp knew something about the Ramsey's religious background and used this as a means to make another jab at them.

I personally don't believe that the Rs killed JB premeditatively. BrotherMoon does have some good points/quotes with The Prime of Miss J Brodie. I just think he has the wrong perp. (But hey, it's Christmas already, and he is willing to light up the antlers in someone's honor. )

Hi Elisea, I tend to believe a BDI senerio. I feel this so called garrotte was total staging by the parents. I feel the garrotte was used to tie in objects by the initial attack. If Burke was playing doctor and used the paint brush as a tool and JBR tried to get away Burke may have grabbed her by her collar and with the twisting of her turtleneck {yes I do believe she had the red turtleneck on that night} leaving the triangular mark on her neck. I feel JBR then screamed and out of fear Burke may have grabbed the flashlight and hit her on the head to keep her quiet. This would account for the head injury so close to the strangulation. I feel the garrotte takes care of several things for the stager. They would include an excuse for the damage to JBRs neck, the paint brush {knowing it would be traced to the crime scene} and the rope {as I believe Burke may have used the rope to tie her down to keep her from moving at the beginning of the doctor game} I believe most of the evidence in this crime was more staging than what actually happened that night.

eliza said:

Hi Elisea, I tend to believe a BDI senerio. I feel this so called garrotte was total staging by the parents. I feel the garrotte was used to tie in objects by the initial attack. If Burke was playing doctor and used the paint brush as a tool and JBR tried to get away Burke may have grabbed her by her collar and with the twisting of her turtleneck {yes I do believe she had the red turtleneck on that night} leaving the triangular mark on her neck. I feel JBR then screamed and out of fear Burke may have grabbed the flashlight and hit her on the head to keep her quiet. This would account for the head injury so close to the strangulation. I feel the garrotte takes care of several things for the stager. They would include an excuse for the damage to JBRs neck, the paint brush {knowing it would be traced to the crime scene} and the rope {as I believe Burke may have used the rope to tie her down to keep her from moving at the beginning of the doctor game} I believe most of the evidence in this crime was more staging than what actually happened that night.

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I have a twist on this theory, like others may ,that Patsy grabbed JB in a rage by the collar which led to the first marks on her neck and hit her on the head with the flash light.The garrotte was made while the rope was arround JB's neck,this is why her hair was entwined in the rope and handel. The garrotte I feel was to cover up the first accidental choking and to make it look like a sexual pervert had attacked JB and also in an attempt to hide the real cause of death ,the blow to the head.

FULTON said:

I have a twist on this theory, like others may ,that Patsy grabbed JB in a rage by the collar which led to the first marks on her neck and hit her on the head with the flash light.The garrotte was made while the rope was arround JB's neck,this is why her hair was entwined in the rope and handel. The garrotte I feel was to cover up the first accidental choking and to make it look like a sexual pervert had attacked JB and also in an attempt to hide the real cause of death ,the blow to the head.

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Hi Fulton. Your theory is a possiblity, but one of the main reasons I tend to stick to a BDI theory is the strangulation with a blow to the head. I can see an adult going into a rage and grabbing her collar until she was nearly strangled, but the blow to the head just doesn't make sense to me. If an adult were the perp you would think reality would set in once they realized what their rage had inflicted on their young victim instead of finishing them off with a blow to the head. But then again anything is possible.

Hello Elisea,

It can be difficult to explain evidence such as the garrote rationally, since who ever constructed it may not have been behaving rationally.

Although the evidence does seem to rule out an intruder, that may be its purpose, the intruder may have been someone JonBenet trusted, and known to the family, I can think of two males who fit this description.

Also it is possible she was used in some form of ritual killing, this is not unknown, recently a delusional mother cut of her childs arms.

If you search BlueCrab's articles he has eloquently explained how the garrote may have functioned as part of a sexual asphyxiation device, with Burke as the main actor.

The garrotes function may vary depending on where you think she was killed? If she was killed upstairs and the body re-located to the basement, it might be part of staging, to obsfucate prior bondage activity. If she was killed in the basement then it may have been used as some form of sexual asphyxiation device. If you consider the evidence found with her in the basement, it is a mixture of items from the basement and upstairs e.g. broken paintbrush, white blanket, size 12 underwear, her pullups and white top, her Barbie nightdress etc.

But both John and Patsy said JonBenet went straight to bed, wearing white long john leggings and a red turtleneck top. While investigating the house, a red, balled-up wet turtleneck top was found on the counter of JonBenet’s bathroom. (DOI)

So is this the scene of a murder with the killer making use of items at hand to both restrain, kill and ritually sexually assault JonBenet? Or is it a post-murder scene that has been interrupted or left unfinished? She is not wearing her Barbie nightgown, she is wearing her pullups and clean size 12 underwear which are bloodstained, but her surrounding skin is not?
So was she in the process of being re-dressed to present an image of a bedroom abduction to the basement. Why did her killer remove evidence from the scene e.g. the other half of the paintbrush, why one half but not the other? Did her killer use her size-6 underwear to clean her up, where are they now ?

If you think her parents are involved, the interesting question is why was her final staging not completed?

UKGuy said:

If you think her parents are involved, the interesting question is why was her final staging not completed?

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That is an interesting point UKGuy, it didn't occur to me that the staging left more to be desired. What else do u think was not completed/finished as part of the staging routine?

None of it makes sense. Why would someone stage a kidnapping but then go on to try and stage a sex crime, but yet get the favorite gown and wrap JonBenet in a blanket. I think that the parents were involved but could a pervert really have gotten in and sexually abused JonBenet and hung her up somehow, then when she was found Patsy didn't want her to be remembered that way, thinking of their reputation, took her down, cleaned her up, and made it look like a failed kidnapping. Either way, they don't seem to concerned about future little girls being killed or raped by the supposed pervert kidnappers.

txsvicki said:

None of it makes sense. Why would someone stage a kidnapping but then go on to try and stage a sex crime, but yet get the favorite gown and wrap JonBenet in a blanket. I think that the parents were involved but could a pervert really have gotten in and sexually abused JonBenet and hung her up somehow, then when she was found Patsy didn't want her to be remembered that way, thinking of their reputation, took her down, cleaned her up, and made it look like a failed kidnapping. Either way, they don't seem to concerned about future little girls being killed or raped by the supposed pervert kidnappers.

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Yep....and certainly not concerned enough with the killer still on the loose...Burke went out with the Stine boy alone only months after his sister was killed. Ramsey still didn't use the security alarm when the Atlanta burglar struck.

But then again John went on CNN, not a week after his daughter was murdered, and stated he wasn't 'angry'......why?

How could you not be angry at the fiend who killed your child?

This is not all that important, but I do have an explanation for the barbie gown that was found with the blanket. My daughter had this same barbie gown when she was little and it was made of a very filmy polyester material (It came with the Barbie...it was not the type of pj's I would have purchased) anyway, this nightgown stuck to EVERYTHING when it was taken out the dryer. We used to lose it for long stretches of time because it was invariably stuck to whatever it was dried with.

I dont believe anyone retrieved that gown. I think it happened to be stuck to the blanket when it came out of the dryer. The only reason this is interesting is that it goes a long way towards proving that someone retrieved the blanket out of the dryer during that night/early morning. I cannot see an intruder rummaging in the dryer which was upstairs looking for a blanket. I know this crime wasnt committed by an intruder....but I dont know for a fact which of the three people there that night did what....which is why I believe no one has been prosecuted. The police dont know which one did what either.

JMO, but i think that cos the blow to the head wasn't identified (pls correct me if i'm wrong) until the post mortem, they concentrated on the garotte and strangulation as the main cause of death, so more attention was placed on it? also the lack of blood on the wound to the head suggests it happened after death, although that again wouldn't explain the fact that the garotte isn't a garotte (if you see where i'm coming from?!) and couldn't cause the strangualtion in that way.

If Patsy did kill Jb, then I think the "garotte" was staged later, but by John, as I think Patsy was, by that point, to far 'gone', and couldn't have carried out the staging effectively, although again this could be why it appears the staging wasn't completed?
Sorry if this isn't very coherent! I;m still unsure as to my own view of what happened, and contradict myself far to much!

BrotherMoon said:

The arms were found straight up beside the head. If an unconscious or dead body is laid on the ground with the arms up like that, the arms will flex at the elbows and shoulders, they won't remain straight. They have to be held straight. The means to hold the arms straight were found on the body: the wrist ligatures. It can be considered that the neck ligature had the same purpose: posing. There is evidence of two attacks to the neck. An initial strangulation may have preceeded the final positioning of the neck cord. That cord may or may not have been used in the strangulation. If the cord is pulled up behind the head, the 17" cord puts the handle at the level of the wrists. The paint brush handle could have been placed in a holder or one end of it into a hole and the wrist cords wrapped around that device. The missing broken end could still be in a hole somewhere.

A gibbet was a device use to display criminals after execution. The body was hung from a beam projecting from a scaffold. Gibbets are mentioned in The Prime Of Miss Jean Brodie.

JonBenet's body could have been displayed for the perp horizontally or at an angle and still fulfill the "hanging" image without swinging free.

I think Patsy is dissociative.

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This explanation sure makes sense to me, but what about the legs and feet, wouldn't they have been restrained and why didn't the wrist ligatures cause any marks or bruising on her wrists while she was hanging?

txsvicki said:

This explanation sure makes sense to me, but what about the legs and feet, wouldn't they have been restrained and why didn't the wrist ligatures cause any marks or bruising on her wrists while she was hanging?

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txsvicki,

I too think JonBenet had been "strung up", but not in the traditional sense. There were no significant marks on her wrists because she was likely strung up in a sitting position with legs apart on the floor and arms over her head holding the torso in an upright position. This is a typical position used in erotic asphyxiation. The hands are usually tied over the head in erotic asphyxiation so the subject, gasping for air, can't involuntarily pull the device from the neck and thus ruin the enhanced orgasm (the goal in erotic asphyxiation).

The device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was not a garrote. Garrotes don't look anything like that. Garrotes are nothing but a single piece of rope or wire with a handle on each end. The elaborate device on JonBenet had only one handle (the stick); with a ligature at the opposite end. The device on JonBenet, IMO, was designed for and had been used as an erotic asphyxiation masturbation device.

The device was probably made by the killer prior to Christmas and had been used prior to the murder. White nylon fibers from it were found in JonBenet's bed. By being made in the house prior to Christmas strongly suggests it was made by a Ramsey -- not an intruder.

JMO

BlueCrab said:

txsvicki,

I too think JonBenet had been "strung up", but not in the traditional sense. There were no significant marks on her wrists because she was likely strung up in a sitting position with legs apart on the floor and arms over her head holding the torso in an upright position. This is a typical position used in erotic asphyxiation. The hands are usually tied over the head in erotic asphyxiation so the subject, gasping for air, can't involuntarily pull the device from the neck and thus ruin the enhanced orgasm (the goal in erotic asphyxiation).

The device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was not a garrote. Garrotes don't look anything like that. Garrotes are nothing but a single piece of rope or wire with a handle on each end. The elaborate device on JonBenet had only one handle (the stick); with a ligature at the opposite end. The device on JonBenet, IMO, was designed for and had been used as an erotic asphyxiation masturbation device.

The device was probably made by the killer prior to Christmas and had been used prior to the murder. White nylon fibers from it were found in JonBenet's bed. By being made in the house prior to Christmas strongly suggests it was made by a Ramsey -- not an intruder.

JMO

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I'd like to further reinforce my position that the EA device found wrapped around JonBenet's neck had been made by someone in the family prior to Christmas.

In addition to the white nylon fibers from the device found in JonBenet's bed, Dr. David Jones (PMPT pb, pg 560) said that "the child's vagina showed a history of abuse, since the cellulose dated from an old injury."

IOW, according to Dr. Jones, the cellulose, which had flaked off the stick while the stick was in JonBenet's vagina, had been in the vagina due to an injury that had occurred prior to Christmas. Therefore, the EA device which strangled JonBenet on Christmas night had obviously been made by a Ramsey family member prior to Christmas and used at least one time by JonBenet prior to Christmas.

JMO

BrotherMoon said:

The arms were found straight up beside the head. If an unconscious or dead body is laid on the ground with the arms up like that, the arms will flex at the elbows and shoulders, they won't remain straight.

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Her arms were not straight up, but were in fact flexed at the elbows...
actual autopsy photo from Lou Smits cache.
She was still in full rigor at the morgue.

Seeker said:

Her arms were not straight up, but were in fact flexed at the elbows...
actual autopsy photo from Lou Smits cache.

She was still in full rigor at the morgue.

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This conclusion can't be made. The arms were probably pulled down for this picture. The extremities can be moved even in full rigor, I've seen it done.

However, just how straight the arms were when the body was brought up is not clear. It is an important point. Very straight arms would require restraints and therefore would suggest posing with the wrist ligatures. Even slightly bent arms could suggest posing. And then a connection in purpose to the use of the neck ligature can be made: posing.

Remember, there was a slight upward deviation in the furrow at the back of the neck, indicating the cord was pulled up at some time.

Even the autopsy states her body was in rigor...if there were any changes from the time that Dr Meyer saw her on the family's floor to the time she arrived on his examination table I'm certain he would have mentioned it and listed it on the autopsy report.

Are you suggesting the ligature around her neck, the one that was deeply imbedded into her flesh was only there as "posing"?

IMO she was not "posed" at all. I've never seen a body in rigor have it's joints moved, not even for coroner's photographs, it doesn't happen. They move the entire body and camera to get the angles they need to see. The body is evidence, it's not tampered with just to take photo's. There were police officers present for the autopsy as well.

Note: this is a sketch of JonBenet's body as it lay on the floor of the family home based on autopsy info and police sources as to how it was laying.

I'm sure that the people who saw JonBenet's body laying on the floor in full rigor, of the home after she was brought up are the "sources" that contributed to this artist sketch.