My thoughts

I remember not too long ago this case was perplexing. Tons of important details, different killer signatures......just a case where only intelligent people stay above water. When I first started reading here I thought "no way am I going to join this forum, these people are out of my league." I remember the intricate discussions, the lack of emotion...a place where facts and neutrality ruled.

And this bothers me because this forum is no longer the respectful, educated, classy little joint it used to me. I pictured all the members sitting around in castles saying "indeed. To each other like a bunch of over educated blue bloods that guys like me don't get long with.

We have allowed this forum to become a nest of rumor, agenda, and hostility. No fault but our own.

If you were to compare the debate characteristicsgrammar, respect, intelligence, reliability) of today to those of 2-3 years ago........well you can analyze that yourself.

And, that my dear, is why I post less often and try to only post the facts as I have found them and do find them. It is no fun when 3/4 of the posts are opinion versus seeing where the data leads us. Personally, I refuse to read the squabbling and condescending posts. There are many such posts and to save time I just scroll. Best not to feed the beast, the flames, the fire whatever we want to call it.

Over the past six months, I have come to suspect that a few people are here for their own personal reasons and it seems not to add to the fact finding, research or intellectual dissection of the FACTS. It seems that their only purpose is to sit back and tear to shreds the theories of other members while injecting their own theory as bona-fide fact. Sadly, re: solving this case, this is probably what investigators and the killer want to happen. Two years ago, we wondered if LE wanted this case to just go away.

Just K said:

And, that my dear, is why I post less often and try to only post the facts as I have found them and do find them. It is no fun when 3/4 of the posts are opinion versus seeing where the data leads us. Personally, I refuse to read the squabbling and condescending posts. There are many such posts and to save time I just scroll. Best not to feed the beast, the flames, the fire whatever we want to call it.

Over the past six months, I have come to suspect that a few people are here for their own personal reasons and it seems not to add to the fact finding, research or intellectual dissection of the FACTS. It seems that their only purpose is to sit back and tear to shreds the theories of other members while injecting their own theory as bona-fide fact. Sadly, re: solving this case, this is probably what investigators and the killer want to happen. Two years ago, we wondered if LE wanted this case to just go away.

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BBM

Same here. I look for certain posters whom I have come to view as reliable sources of information, read what they have to say, and bypass the clutter and mess left by other posters. When I attempt to read posts where opinion is stated as fact, I'm compelled to respond and insist on a source. That just ends up getting ME in trouble. So...I've learned not to bother. :banghead:

agree with what has been said. I usually only comment when the facts get so distorted I can't stand it. There are some posters that REFUSE to accept opinions and FACTS that differ from their agenda,whatever that may be. This forum has become a place where they repeat their distorted arguments over and over and over. I too usually skip through these posts. It is very frustrating, especially since us "oldtimers" has put so much effort into keepimg the known facts in this case straight.

Yes, it should be about the facts and where those facts lead us. We need to find that one connection because there is one...the only way to do that is to see if the women had places, people, or behaviors in common outside of just the obvious...

We know:
they were all prostitutes
they were originally brunettes
they are all petite
they all did in calls
they were all in their 20's
three were single mothers
two, maybe all four, did out calls (ALC & MB)
two are known to use motels (MBB & MW)
one had arrests for something drug-related (MW)
three had arrest for THEFT (MBB, ALC, MW)
one worked for a casino (MBB)
one worked for an escort service (ALC)
two had drivers/pimps (ALC & MB)
Two have known ties to Brooklyn (ALC, MW)
All four have ties to the either the Port Authority (MW, MBB) or Manhattan (ALC worked for an escort service that has offices in Manhattan.) MB is said to have had a phone that was lost in a fight on the streets of Manhattan and calls to her sister can be linked to a small area of Manhattan. MBB saw clients in that same area.

What else do we know as fact?

Wasn't there a thread for just the facts? Maybe we should dig that thread back up and try to get it going again. And maybe a mod could help us keep rumor, gossip, hearsay, Oak Beach bickering, etc. out of it?

Just a thought.

All of them? Are you sure? It's gonna be a long thread

I think there are at lot of true blue slueths here. Everybody has their own strengths and skill sets*.

Some people are good at coming up with Theories/ideas and some people are good at disecting them.

That makes for great discussion. Everyone brings their own personality to the forum, you can't turn it off. Anyways I wouldn't want to have a discussion with Lords and ladies...I wanna have a discussion with ya'll

*Some people are good at maps, research, matching up the missing and UID, some have pragmatic minds, others not so much. The list goes on and on. It's ALL valuable IMO

P.S. I read every post, even if I don't like what I'm reading because I think it's important to stay open minded and it helps to follow the discussion. This is a discussion forum.

Let the discussing commence!

It's hard when there's no new information. I just re-watched the 48 Hours episode tonight and was amazed at everything I'd forgotten about the case, or maybe just never absorbed the first time through.

I came to this Board because I was invited to come after someone saw my postings on other Blog Boards.

I believe I made it very clear that I came here with an AGENDA. I think most of you know what that is by now. I believe I also bring a certain amount of expertise about investigations. I have done several serial killer type investigations. I think I understand the process.

You talk about FACTS v OPINION. What facts do we really have? 1. 10 bodies were found in the area. 2. 5 of those bodies were prostitutes. 3. The 5 all posted their wares on Craigslist. 4. SG was last seen at JB's home and spent 3 hours there and left. 5. She went to other houses asking for help. 6. She made a 23 minute phone call to 911. 7. We don't even know how she died, or the ME isn't telling us. 8. A detective wrote to Newsday that he heard the tape and he could find no hysteria in SG's voice.

And that is just about all we really know. But what we should know simply by using logic is there is no way a gal is going to spend 23 minutes with 911 and not be hysterical.

I have offered countless opinions as to what happened and what may not have happened. I base it on 8 years of watching the SCPD and DA. In many situations I think I have a remarkable record of predicting what they are going to do before they do it.

ONLY this morning I received a message from a highly reputable source I told something odd was going to happen. They would attempt to defame this person in some fashion or manner. I am not going to tell you this person's occupation and why this person is credible. No dope is this person. But when it came she said a BIG WOW, and told me I called it.

Truth is we have only few FACTS. The rest is opinion. What else can you do if you don't have all the facts?

Truth, also is I find some of the opinions ridiculous. But I try to read all of them.

Justiceforever said:

All of them? Are you sure? It's gonna be a long thread

I think there are at lot of true blue slueths here. Everybody has their own strengths and skill sets*.

Some people are good at coming up with Theories/ideas and some people are good at disecting them.

That makes for great discussion. Everyone brings their own personality to the forum, you can't turn it off. Anyways I wouldn't want to have a discussion with Lords and ladies...I wanna have a discussion with ya'll

*Some people are good at maps, research, matching up the missing and UID, some have pragmatic minds, others not so much. The list goes on and on. It's ALL valuable IMO

P.S. I read every post, even if I don't like what I'm reading because I think it's important to stay open minded and it helps to follow the discussion. This is a discussion forum.

Let the discussing commence!

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I so agree with you Justiceforever.

Sleuthing crimes at Websleuths is like putting a puzzle together IMO. We always provide links. We love the locals because they often hear tidbits and set the tone for the setting of the crime. I think digging up info about the players to the crime is worthwhile. And when things are stated with no link it is so marked by the poster.

Usually every busy case has a thread for this kind of info not given out by the MSM. We had one case in Florida where neighbors and locals were able to post their ideas and what they had learned - Admin verified who they were. And yes, I have seen many times where info has been researched and eventually substantiated.

It is a discussion forum and I agree, we need to stay open minded and keep our eyes and ears to the grindstone. lol

I took a break for awhile, and I was going to make it a permanent one. But I decided to come back and stir the pot a bit. There have been plenty of moments going back even a year and a half ago where I thought to myself, "Wow, that's a really interesting point that person just made." Or "I didn't even think to consider that angle." Some of you have a gift. I really mean that. There are a few members here who I really believe are in over their heads. I'm not going to call anyone out, but I think you can go through the posts here and figure out whom I'm speaking of. I have an app on my phone which lets me check the forum with the tap of a finger. It's rather convenient. If not for that I doubt I'd post much here at all. Not because of anyone in particular, but because it really feels like at this point we're doing nothing but rehashing the same old stuff. Maybe it's just me. Maybe if some new information comes to light things will become interesting around here again. I've noticed that when lesser known posters ask about a post written by a senior member, they're almost ostracized for even daring to question them. That's gotta stop. I may fall into the class of "hostile" at times, but it isn't my intent. I'm just trying to bring some brevity to an otherwise horrible set of circumstances. I have to remind myself sometimes that not everyone will understand my humor, but I think most do.

When I was sleuthing the BTK case back in the day, the atmosphere was totally different than this case. There were no suspects thus no agendas. It was some hard core sleuthing due to all the evidence that had been released. The media frenzy made it difficult at times to find info, but it was fun and the posters treated every one with respect. There were a few crazies, who would get on and post they were the killer, but they were basically ignored. When I compare this case to BTK, it has all the making of being a good case to sleuth, if and only if you remove the SG saga out of the story. It has not been and probably never will be proven that SG was even murdered. So if we were to concentrate on the GB4 only, I am sure we could make some progress. Just my thoughts.

For what it's worth, there HAS been alot of hardcore sleuthing done on this case. Most of it has made it's way on forum, and some of it is kept close to the vest simply because it can't be posted on forum according to TOS.

WSers have done alot of amazing work on this case.

Mountain_Kat said:

Wasn't there a thread for just the facts? Maybe we should dig that thread back up and try to get it going again. And maybe a mod could help us keep rumor, gossip, hearsay, Oak Beach bickering, etc. out of it?

Just a thought.

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Well...I thought that's what we've been doing. But none of the mods has time to monitor the thread 24/7. Y'all have to monitor yourselves, too. As soon as it starts to go south, use the alert feature or pm a mod.

The OB drama, especially, IMO, has been a hindrance to any decent sleuthing for too long now.

If you folks REALLY want to see how the LE system DOESN'T work I suggest you Google a Capozzi/Buffalo/murder. It will also tell you how it DID work. It made me proud that I was once a police officer. It is really an incredible story that will shine a light on how investigations can go astray, and when they are found to have gone astray the persons responsible will do anything to hide it.

If you know how something works internally you have a better chance of solving a problem.

The OB Drama has been a very good distraction. Possibly, a good strategy to point the public away from whoever or whatever entity is responsible for the deaths of the GB4.

I've been a WS member for a year and probably lurked a few months before joining. Things are different here than even when I joined. I'm not a veteran and I'm not a newbie but these are my thoughts fwiw:

2 problems:

There are veteran members who constantly neglect to provide links to support their opinions (and oft times these opinions contain multiple points and are very lengthy). I've been here long enough to know how time-consuming it is to go back and look for a source but nevertheless you are a member which means you agreed to the TOS. It doesn't matter if you have to go back and research a point that you may consider rehashed for the "umpteenth" time... if you cannot provide reasonable sources then don't post!

There have always been locals who provided info but lately there has been an increase in the number of people who say (or allude) they are friends or relatives of people involved in the case. It is impossible to verify all the statements these insiders share on the forum. There should be a better way of discussing (or arguing) these posts. I don't have a suggestion for a better way, but maybe someone does.. .?

bessie said:

Well...I thought that's what we've been doing. But none of the mods has time to monitor the thread 24/7. Y'all have to monitor yourselves, too. As soon as it starts to go south, use the alert feature or pm a mod.

The OB drama, especially, IMO, has been a hindrance to any decent sleuthing for too long now.

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Well, that IS what you guys do, of course...but like you said, you can't be everywhere all at once. What I was thinking when I said that was that maybe we could have some hard and fast rules wrt a fact thread. Any facts posted must be supported by a msm link. No linkee, no postee.

Just my thoughts.

Mountain_Kat said:

Well, that IS what you guys do, of course...but like you said, you can't be everywhere all at once. What I was thinking when I said that was that maybe we could have some hard and fast rules wrt a fact thread. Any facts posted must be supported by a msm link. No linkee, no postee.

Just my thoughts.

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Yes that's the way it's supposed to work...but it would limit us to strictly staying "inside the box"

There HAS to be wiggle room.

I personally feel that we need to go "Outside the box" (at times).

That doesn't mean "outside TOS" It only means considering that MAYBE SG died a horrible, accidental death...and that...MAYBE CPH wasn't responsible for it.

Justiceforever said:

Yes that might work...but it would limit us to strictly staying "inside the box"

I personally feel that we need to go "Outside the box" (at times).

That doesn't mean "outside TOS" It just means considering that MAYBE SG died a horrible, accidental death...and that...MAYBE CPH wasn't responsible for it.

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Well, for that thread it would, yes. The upside, though, it's a useful resource for fact-based research. Let's say I wanted to know where Shannan's jacket was found. Where would I go to find that info? Her thread? I'd have to wade through a mountain of posts, from fact to theory to rumor to off-topic chatter, etc. etc. And there are just so many things we don't seem to have our facts straight on anymore, that it would be helpful to me personally, to have the facts (with msm links) laid out in one place, without thoughts and theories coming into it at all.

Like I said, there are already several threads devoted to thoughts and theories.

JMO