Trial Discussion Thread #52 - 14.11.9, Day 41 ~announcement of the verdict~

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Oscar Pistorius: South Africa gears up for its 'trial of the century'

(CNN) -- He was one of South Africa's favorite sons, an amputee track star who defied all the odds and sprinted into the hearts of millions during the 2012 Summer Olympics in London. She was a staggering beauty with the brains to match, a law graduate and model whose star was on the rise.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial-preview/



Pistorius channel goes on air in South Africa

http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_306483/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=Ip4glGHn
Watch live: Oscar Pistorius murder trial
Follow events from Pretoria as paralympic athlete Oscar Pistorius appears in court accused of murdering his girlfriend, the model Reeva Steenkamp.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../Watch-live-Oscar-Pistorius-murder-trial.html


Links:

Full Indictment-4 Counts-107 Witnesses

http://www.scribd.com/embeds/185695...=1&view_mode=scroll&show_recommendations=true

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/LIVE-UPDATES-Pistorius-broadcast-trial-ruling-20140225

http://www.channel24.co.za/TV/News/DStvs-Oscar-Pretorius-trial-TV-channel-wont-be-tabloid-20140228


Twitter:

https://twitter.com/oscartrial199

https://twitter.com/GeraldImrayAP

https://twitter.com/Debora_Patta

Live Streaming:

http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-live-stream/

http://mybroadband.co.za/news/internet/97919-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-live-streaming.html

http://www.702.co.za/shows/oscar_stream.asp

http://www.mediaite.com/online/watch-live-here-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-day-9/

http://whoopwhoop.tv/pistorius2.htm

Live News Feed

http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_trial_4

Trial Video Archive:

http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-archive/

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2nd Warning:
Any more snarky, personal attacks and there will be a few members not posting for 3 days. I rarely issue TOs during verdict watches because I like to permit those following for months to be able to follow & post. However, you guys have options. Scroll & roll, use the ignore feature or sign off for a while. If you CHOOSE to continue to respond rudely, Time Outs will be issued starting now.

*This post falls at random*
 
Zuri said:
Where I am confounded in the Judge's thinking at this point, is the firing of a gun into a small space and not expect whatever was on the other side of a closed door, would not sustain injury or death.
Click to expand...

Ikr? I would like J Masipa to give her opinion as to why OP shot 4 times, no more, no less. This surely will give insight to her thinking. jmo
 
Are there any statistics available for the records of South African judges, in terms of how many of their decisions have successfully been overturned?
 
Can anyone tell me where does 3:12AM time for the gunshots comes from ?

From what evidence was this time derived from ?
 
Is culpable homicide the same as voluntary manslaughter here in the US, generally thinking?
 
Someone on the previous thread asked whether Judge Masipa had paused the case in order to gauge public opinion. If this was tongue in cheek,just ignore my response.

I very much doubt this is why Judge M paused her judgement. However much some disagree with her reasoning, a judge cannot rule based on popularity or what the public want. Judges must stick with the rule of law and applying case law as they believe fit.

It just so happens that it appears an erroneous interpretation of the law has occurred in this case - but this really needs to be addressed through the appropriate legal channels (I think we are all hoping and trusting that Nel is on the case) , not because it has caused a public outcry from some observers.

I would not generally expect any judge to allow public opinion to sway their judgement.
 
Viper,

You keep saying that CH can have 15 years + another 15 years for the gun charges…

I wish it would be so… but as we have seen so far, Masipa is very pro-OP to the extent of distorting and disregarding the evidence without any justifications… naturally, she does not want to get into the details and attempt to explain the inexplicable… very sneaky of her… that way it makes her errors on facts very difficult to point out for an appeal.
 
I understand the difference between whether someone "did foresee" or "should have foreseen" in determining Dolus versus Culpa but I wonder if there may be confusion about what it is that Judge Masipa is saying she is testing.

Is she testing whether OP did foresee a) that it was the deceased (Reeva) in the toilet or b) that firing 4 bullets into the toilet would have likely killed the person inside the toilet or both? I think she tests a) and concludes that he didn't foresee it was Reeva; she doesn't test b). She says OP knew it was intruders in the toilet and yet is not applying the test to them. This is surely Dolus.

I fail to see how applying the test to b) would result in anything but Dolus.
 
AJ_DS said:
Can anyone tell me where does 3:12AM time for the gunshots comes from ?

From what evidence was this time derived from ?
Click to expand...

6:33pm: This is the timeline found by Judge Masipa, which she says "will prove useful in establishing whether the accused showed intent and premeditation."
3.12am - 3.14pm - first sounds were heard. These were gunshots.
Approx 3.14-3.15 - accused was heard shouting for help.
Approx 3.12-3.17 - screams were heard.
Approx 3.15am - accused was seen walking in the bathroom (by witnesses)
3.15am - a 16 second phone call from neighbour Johan Stipp to security
3.16am - 58 second call. Neighbour Charl Johnson called and spoke to security
3.16.36 - 44 second call to security.
3.17 - Dr Stipp attempts to call 10111
3.17 - second sounds were heard. These were cricket bat striking against the door
3.19 - 24 seconds - Pistorius called chief of security, Johan Stander
3.20 - duration was 66 seconds - Pistorius called 911
3.21.- Pistorius calls security
3.22.05 - a security guard calls the accused
3.22 - security arrives at accused's house
Approx 3.23 - dr stipp arrives at house of the accused
3.41 - ambulance arrives
3.50 - paramedics pronounce Reeva dead
3.55 - police arrive.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/oscar-p...outh-africa-20140911-3fa7g.html#ixzz3D20Qc8Fn
 
Code:
AJ_DS said:
Can anyone tell me where does 3:12AM time for the gunshots comes from ?

From what evidence was this time derived from ?
Click to expand...

It either comes from Johnston's rough notes or from OP saying that the time between shots and bat was 5 minutes.
 
PrimeSuspect said:
6:33pm: This is the timeline found by Judge Masipa, which she says "will prove useful in establishing whether the accused showed intent and premeditation."
3.12am - 3.14pm - first sounds were heard. These were gunshots.
Approx 3.14-3.15 - accused was heard shouting for help.
Approx 3.12-3.17 - screams were heard.
Approx 3.15am - accused was seen walking in the bathroom (by witnesses)
3.15am - a 16 second phone call from neighbour Johan Stipp to security
3.16am - 58 second call. Neighbour Charl Johnson called and spoke to security
3.16.36 - 44 second call to security.
3.17 - Dr Stipp attempts to call 10111
3.17 - second sounds were heard. These were cricket bat striking against the door
3.19 - 24 seconds - Pistorius called chief of security, Johan Stander
3.20 - duration was 66 seconds - Pistorius called 911
3.21.- Pistorius calls security
3.22.05 - a security guard calls the accused
3.22 - security arrives at accused's house
Approx 3.23 - dr stipp arrives at house of the accused
3.41 - ambulance arrives
3.50 - paramedics pronounce Reeva dead
3.55 - police arrive.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/oscar-p...outh-africa-20140911-3fa7g.html#ixzz3D20Qc8Fn
Click to expand...

Thanks but it does not answer my question : where does the 3:12AM originate from ?

What piece of evidence points to the gunshots (or first bangs) having occured between 3:12 and 3:14 ????????????
 
Here are few tweets of interest.

James Grant @CriminalLawZA • 8h
There is no question of transferred intent on the facts. #OP intended to kill whoever was behind the door & killed that person.

James Grant @CriminalLawZA • 7h
Essence: Masipa doesn't accept that accused intended to kill anyone. Huh? His defence was he didn't intend to UNLAWFULLY kill.

James Grant @CriminalLawZA •
Problem: reasons don't follow. If he didn't believe he would kill anyone, then his belief that he was under attack is irrelevant.

CriminalLawZA James Grant State can appeal legal errors. Arguably a legal error to restrict Dolus Eventualis to Reeva when it's irrelevant who was behind the door.

https://twitter.com/CriminalLawZA/status/510009489337352192


DavidDadic David Dadic She seems to attach weight to his reaction after the fact-crying etc.But if it was an intruder would he have cried, would he then be guilty?

https://twitter.com/DavidDadic


Simmoa Aislinn Laing Judge Masipa says she must test reasonableness against someone of the same background as OP-straying into controversial territory again here.

https://twitter.com/Simmoa



Lots more on Twitter
 
AJ_DS said:
Thanks but it does not answer my question : where does the 3:12AM originate from ?

What piece of evidence points to the gunshots (or first bangs) having occured between 3:12 and 3:14 ????????????
Click to expand...

I know, lol, J Masipa found it somewhere, who knows where? Will she tell us, no.
 
Hazy said:
Code:

It either comes from Johnston's rough notes or from OP saying that the time between shots and bat was 5 minutes.
Click to expand...

Cannot be Jonhson or Burger… because they never heard the first set of bangs… they only heard the second set.

Anybody else have an idea ????
 
PrimeSuspect said:
I know, lol, J Masipa found it somewhere, who knows where? Will she tell us, no.
Click to expand...

Yes… very suspicious…. that 3:12AM is nowhere to be found… it was invented out of thin air and used in a material way to discredit key credible, reliable and corroborated witnesses.

Shame on you Masipa !!!!!!!!!
 
After today I just can't see this judge giving OP any jail time. Although it appears she made an error in her judgement according to many experts & professors I also don't see Nel appealing.
 
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