Red vs. White

I believe ST said in one of the chats that JBR wore the white shirt to the Whites' party.

Originally posted by Imon128
Yeah, Nehemiah, I'd surely like to see the pics from dinner at the White's, too.

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I think this is a pix everyone would love to see, and yes I agree that its the shirt/s thats keeping us from seeing them...

Originally posted by BrotherMoon
Britt, some of the notable things occur before the event such as the feeding of pineapple. The post event symbolic references are in part whitewashing, repression, confession and even "turf" claiming.

I think Patsy is seriously split psychologically and the murder and staging show the inner conflict. The "bad" Patsy persona seems to speak at times in spite of the "good" Patsy's efforts. I think it does want recognition for it's brilliant deduction and good Patsy has to throw it a bone every now and then to keep it placated.

I think the psychopathology displayed points to pre-event sources, not just post trauma repression. To me the key indicator of this is the content of the ransom note, it's references to The Bible and all the coincidences of the crime with The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie story. The "deadline" of Christmas was the stressor and remember Patsy rewrote the scene from TPOMJB that she used in her pageants and titled it "Deadline".

Patsy had a long history of using JonBenet before the '96 Christmas. There's every reason to believe that the murder was just one part in a developing psychosis that continues with Patsy's fixation on joining her daughter in heaven.

The many "clues" are the result of narcissistic self involvement with possibly elements of moral contrition much as a child will confess to eating one cookie after finishing off the entire box.

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http://www.mtholyoke.edu/offices/comm/csj/950616/notices.html
RAFFLE WINNER: Patricia Ramsey; Interesting Info!
Raffle Winners
The following employees were raffle winners at the Employee Benefits Fair sponsored by the Department of Human Resources in early May. A variety of items, including gift certificates, a mountain bike, a leather portfolio, and a Cross pen were donated by the Five College Credit Union, TIAA/CREF, Fidelity Investments, Connecticut Mutual, American Benefits, UNUM, Community Health Plan, Kaiser Permanente, and Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Mary Kennedy, Jeanne Murdock, Laura Dion, Rose Phoenix, Rick Kroll, Patricia O'Brien, Rita Starzyk, Barbara Vanderpoel, Bernice Lynch, Karen Jacobus, Tina Martel, Helen Ash, Patricia Ramsey, and Ellen Rutan.

So will the real "Patricia Ramsey please stand up?!" ... hee hee LOL...how many could their be???!!!~~~:dontknow:

Originally posted by Britt
I agree, BrotherMoon. IMO Patsy's psyche is complex and brilliant. And, as Dr. Hodges points out, the unconscious mind is driven to tell the truth despite what the conscious mind wants.

IMO if this was premeditated, it was unconscious premeditation. If it was consciously unintentional, the unconscious jumped in almost effortlessly to handle the crisis. And I think John helped, too, with the staging. But I think Patsy orchestrated it.

What was John's role, if any, in your opinion? If he was uninvolved, why did he go along with the cover-up?

Maxi - yes, Thomas did say that. JB wore the white shirt to the Whites'. The transcript is at about.com.

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I totally agree w/your post...even though I don't want too!!! :dontknow:

Originally posted by BrotherMoon
Britt, I think John was not involved until the time he found the body and didn't tell the police.

Read about the people that had close relationships with Michael Swango and Ted Bundy. Hitler had a "wife".

People think they know what Satan is just as they seem to think they know what Yaweh or Allah or Odin is. I say that very few people could tell the difference as The Devil presents itself as a god with all it's talent for deceit.

John Ramsey is very busy constructing his version of light and goodness to protect himself from the realization that he sleeps with The Devil. He started doing that in ernest when he found the body. My guess is he was fooling himself about his wife well before Christmas '96.

Satan loves blinders and lawyers.

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ditto! ABOVE EXCELLENT POST...imho!fwiw

Why do you think the pictures at the White's party have not been released? If due to the shirts, why or how is that connected in any way?

Originally posted by BrotherMoon

I think Patsy is seriously split psychologically and the murder and staging show the inner conflict. The "bad" Patsy persona seems to speak at times in spite of the "good" Patsy's efforts. I think it does want recognition for it's brilliant deduction and good Patsy has to throw it a bone every now and then to keep it placated.

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Has split personality disorder even been accepted in the psychological world? How can you tell someone who says (or implies) that they had SPD isn't lying?

There is no "split personality disorder" in the DSM. There is Dissociative Identity Disorder, commonly called multiple personality disorder. I don't think Brothermoon meant that level of split, tho.

There are specific diagnostic criteria for DID which should help weed out some of the fakers. But, like most psychiatric diagnoses, self report plays a large part in establishing the criteria, so lying is always a possiblity.

Especiall if the person is on trial for something, that always seems to be the kicker.

I do believe in Multiole Personalities to an extent......not sure what extent that is, though. I think a person should have a huge amount of trauma in their childhood to be able to split psyches that way.

Does anyone know of any trauma in Patsy or John's past that could actually cause this?

Originally posted by Imon128
I believe I've read that JB had a black vest on over her white shirt that she wore to the White's. If that is the case, it might have been pretty hot and/or bulky to have the two shirts on under it. Patsy's first account of JB having the red turtleneck on is a head scratcher, alright. She could have put it back on JB if JB had wet herself in the car and the white shirt removed and replaced with the turtleneck, I guess.

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Jonbenet wore a black velvet vest over her white Gap shirt along with the black velvet pants and black boots with fur on them. Patsy could have already placed the red turtleneck on JonBenet before going to the Whites and then JonBenet decides she does not want to wear it so she removes it and tosses it on the counter in the bathroom.

Or...JonBenet could have already been wearing the red turtleneck earlier during the day?

I cannot find the page number in the NE book but Patsy slips up saying that she pulled off JonBenets clothes...then she catches herself and says that she leaves the white shirt on.

If JonBenet was wearing the black vest over her white shirt...then surely black fibers would have been removed from the white shirt.

It is difficult to apply the scientific method to the study of human behavior. As much as we would like to identify and classify psychopathology in the manner of biology there are serious shortcomings to the attempt due to presuppositions. Taken to the esoteric, even the "hard" sciences of mathematics and physics fade into philosophy. IMO only chemistry and bio chemistry are pure sciences. I have a degree in chemistry. I've also studied art and through Dr. Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell have found a "basis" for understanding the psyche; spontaneous symbol production in sleep, purposefully lowered states of consciousness, artistic production, psychosis and schizoid states.

It all comes down to ego development and the ability to relate to the outside world and the inner world. I don't think the pathology of the ego/persona can be divided in the manner of Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species or the element chart. The diagnostic manual is the result of the attempt to apply the scientific method to psychopathology. Scientists could only come up with it in the manner of what they do. But there are limitations in the resultant understanding due to the presuppositions of structure.

I say art and mythology should be used just as much as science in the study of psychopathology. The argument of whether Patsy has DID or even whether DID exists or not would be replaced by an argument about the influence of inner psychological factors and the resultant inhibitions to outer adaptation. The proof would then lie in the sensible products of Patsy's behavior; her creative life. And specifically in relation to this case, the ransom note, the condition of the body, Patys's correspondences, her stage performances, DOI, her home decoration etc.

From looking at these things I have concluded that Patsy has had a very active private life closely connected to literature. In the manner of progressive psychosis that private life went down the gradient from thoughtful speculation to imagination to fantasy to overt psychosis.

Whether or not her diagnosis can be found in the diagnostic manual is a mute point.

Someone asked why the photo's from the White's x-mas party have never been released. I don't know, but I bet it's because they clearly show JB in the white shirt and not the red one that ST tried to say she wore. He seemed to imply that JB wore the red shirt and that Patsy changed JB into the white one after they got home, before she "murdered" her in a fit of rage over wetting the bed.

The BPD also latched onto this theory (about the shirts being changed) and thats why those photo's have never been released IMO.

Now I know I missed something, but can someone tell me where the reference to the white shirt was a GAP shirt? I don't remember ever seing that before. Thanks

Originally posted by Seeker
...I bet it's because they clearly show JB in the white shirt and not the red one that ST tried to say she wore. He seemed to imply that JB wore the red shirt and that Patsy changed JB into the white one after they got home, before she "murdered" her in a fit of rage over wetting the bed.

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Steve Thomas clearly said JB wore the white shirt to the Whites' party.

In his book he said that Patsy said JB went to bed in the red sweater, then Patsy changed her story to the white shirt. Thomas merely pointed out that Patsy changed her story.

From the about.com interview:

crimeADM: Was JonBenet definitely wearing the red turtleneck at the Whites' party?

stevethomas: no, she was wearing the white top in which her body was eventually found the next day.

http://crime.about.com/library/weekly/aa111700d.htm?terms=Steve+Thomas

I thought ST believed Patsy may have put on tried to put the red turtleneck on JBR before tucking her in bed and somehow choked her. I always found that a goofy idea. It's terribly hard to get a turtleneck over the head of a sleepy child.

Thanks Britt, but how silly is that? Why would you put your child to bed in a red sweater instead of pj's?

ST also said at first he thought Patsy was lying about what she wore to the Whites BECAUSE he found the red turtleneck sweater balled up in her bathroom. The about.com interview was way after he made his initial leaks to vanity fair.

Originally posted by Maxi
I thought ST believed Patsy may have put on tried to put the red turtleneck on JBR before tucking her in bed and somehow choked her. I always found that a goofy idea.

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I thought he believed that Patsy put JB to bed in the red sweater, that JB then wet the bed, and that's when the struggle took place, and the sweater ended up on the bathroom counter.

IMO possibly Patsy put JB to bed in the red sweater, perhaps in preparation for the early a.m. trip, along with pullup diapers to prevent the sweater from getting wet if there were a nighttime accident. Then later JB got up or leaked through the pullups or someone stopped by her room to sexually abuse her and got caught, or whatever (lots of potential scenarios)... and the red sweater ended up on the bathroom counter.

Originally posted by Nehemiah
I just thought of something today regarding the red turtleneck vs. the white shirt that JB was wearing when her body was discovered.

It was first reported by the Ramseys that JB was wearing the red turtleneck and they reportedly later changed that story to say that she was not wearing the turtleneck, but the white Gap shirt. We know that her body was discovered wearing the white shirt. The pictures from the Christmas party have not been released to the public, and there were supposedly no videos from Christmas Day festivities. We also were told that the red turtleneck was discovered balled up near the sink in JB's bathroom. No one has disputed that she was wearing the white Gap shirt; the red turtleneck has never been adequately addressed with the public as to if she really wore it or simply tried it on and then removed it.
We also know that she was wearing long john type pants when discovered.

Now to my questions. Could it be that JB was wearing the white Gap shirt UNDER the red turtleneck--much like an insulated underwear shirt? That way, the truth was told--just not the whole truth? Could there be evidence that has not been released regarding the red turtleneck? Is that why the pictures have not been released? What important clues could surround the red turtleneck "mystery", if any, and why would the Rs first say to the police that she was wearing it, and then change that?

I'd like to hear your thoughts about the red vs. white shirts.

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R's created/wanted/wished for (prayed for) MASS CONFUSION!... it was their(the R's) ticket out/to be free!...IMHO?

Steve Thomas did say the pictures from the Whites clearly show JonBenet wearing the white Gap shirt. My belief is that JonBenet removed the red turtleneck prior to going to the Whites.

The pair of pants found in the bathroom were stained. Could Patsy have changed JonBenet into the red turtleneck and pants before placing her in her bed for the trip to Charlevoix? Could JonBenet have soiled them in her sleep and Patsy changed her when she checked up on her around midnight? Does that explain the wiping down of JonBenet?

Originally posted by BrotherMoon
It is difficult to apply the scientific method to the study of human behavior. As much as we would like to identify and classify psychopathology in the manner of biology there are serious shortcomings to the attempt due to presuppositions. Taken to the esoteric, even the "hard" sciences of mathematics and physics fade into philosophy. IMO only chemistry and bio chemistry are pure sciences. I have a degree in chemistry. I've also studied art and through Dr. Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell have found a "basis" for understanding the psyche; spontaneous symbol production in sleep, purposefully lowered states of consciousness, artistic production, psychosis and schizoid states.

It all comes down to ego development and the ability to relate to the outside world and the inner world. I don't think the pathology of the ego/persona can be divided in the manner of Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species or the element chart. The diagnostic manual is the result of the attempt to apply the scientific method to psychopathology. Scientists could only come up with it in the manner of what they do. But there are limitations in the resultant understanding due to the presuppositions of structure.

I say art and mythology should be used just as much as science in the study of psychopathology. The argument of whether Patsy has DID or even whether DID exists or not would be replaced by an argument about the influence of inner psychological factors and the resultant inhibitions to outer adaptation. The proof would then lie in the sensible products of Patsy's behavior; her creative life. And specifically in relation to this case, the ransom note, the condition of the body, Patys's correspondences, her stage performances, DOI, her home decoration etc.

From looking at these things I have concluded that Patsy has had a very active private life closely connected to literature. In the manner of progressive psychosis that private life went down the gradient from thoughtful speculation to imagination to fantasy to overt psychosis.

Whether or not her diagnosis can be found in the diagnostic manual is a mute point.

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I think I understand what you said/posted but am left with another question...does it relate(similar?) to Dr.Hodges' 2 books & Walter Davis' book on JonBenet?...does it explain the same in a different language? or same chapter/different page...???(sorry that I'm assuming you've read these 3 books?yes/no?):dontknow:

Originally posted by Maxi
I thought ST believed Patsy may have put on tried to put the red turtleneck on JBR before tucking her in bed and somehow choked her. I always found that a goofy idea. It's terribly hard to get a turtleneck over the head of a sleepy child.

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I totally agree!; it's not something I would do to any of my 3 daughters (past/present)...try to put on a turtleneck while asleep...had to think and laugh because none of my girls to this day(15+yrs) have worn any turtlenecks now or ever ...(funny?)...ages 11, 14, 16; oh well ? :dontknow: :dontknow:

So what's up with this SWEATER "REMOVED"?>:
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/search.html
A black, red and green Christmas sweater