Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #66~ the appeal~

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http://www.news.com.au/world/africa...o-home-detention/story-fnh81gzi-1227580548021

The unanswered questions about the release of Oscar Pistorius from jail to home detention
OCTOBER 23, 2015

According to legal expert Dr Llewellyn Curlewis, a criminal barrister and former president of the South African Law Society, there is no case of “rock star” treatment for the one-time national sporting hero. In fact, his sentence is being served to the letter of the law...

... Dr Curlewis believes the appeal will fail.“The appeal judges have to rule that the decision was palpably wrong,” he said. “This is a very politically sensitive case and the appeal judges come from the same background as Judge Masipa. There is no new evidence produced. It is all done by going through the evidence presented in the trial. They will have already done their reading. The decision will only take a few hours, and I think they will give her the benefit of the doubt...

Previous thread:
Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #65 ~ the appeal~

Link to Oscar Pistorius Forum Index
 
For those who are new to this forum, here's a list of all OP's indiscretions, misdemeanours, confrontations etc. that have been published over the years. It's interesting to note the escalation from the 2012 Olympics onwards.

Oscar is a Danger to Society

2002 At 15 he was allowed to drive Carl’s car illegally around Pretoria

circa 2003 Rumours reached some teachers that he had a violent temper – that sometimes he ‘flipped’, as one of them put it – and that he threatened the younger boys

May 2004 Bought his first car when he was 17, too young for a driver’s licence

Feb 14, 2006 Nodded off at the wheel after setting off for Vicky Miles’ house, 400 miles from his, at 3am after they had a blistering row. One side of his vehicle was completely destroyed.

2008 Oscar’s ex-stylist, Francois Louw, witnessed a terrifying temper tantrum whilst they worked together to create a fragrance. When there was an issue when delivering the finished products, Oscar screamed, swore, kicked the garage door, went inside and screamed even louder, swearing constantly. He also threatened Louw’s family.

July 2008 Just before the Beijing Olympics he swore at a South African reporter for quoting an athletics coach who said Oscar wasn’t yet ready to run a relay. “I never realised the ‘f’ and ‘p’ words could be used in so many different ways in such quick succession,” the journalist said.

Prior to Sept 6, 2008 At the pre-games training camp for the Beijing Paralympics he phoned David O’Sullivan and raged about what he perceived to be an inadequate training kit. His fury caught O’Sullivan by surprise. Oscar “knew he couldn’t be ignored and his anger would ensure his demands were met. He wanted to go on the air and complain,” said O’Sullivan, who put him on his radio show.

Feb 21, 2009 Crashed his boat into a relatively new pier on the Vaal River which shattered his face and nearly cost him his life. He lied when he said that 1) the pier was submerged; 2) it happened at sunset (it was after 10pm); and 3) he hadn’t been drinking. (He was seen drinking in a river pub and 3 empty bottles of liquor were found on his boat. He was never breath tested).

Feb 21, 2009 A further individual had an altercation with Oscar on the river that same evening which occurred “long” after sunset but before the boating accident took place.

9 March 2009 Stopped Beeld from taking pictures of him on the N4 highway in Pretoria, where a friend of his had been involved in an accident. A woman died at the scene of the accident after walking in front of Anneke Kruger's oncoming car. Kruger works for In/sight, the company which manages OP's business interests. A bystander who asked OP why the photographer couldn't take photographs, was told: "Oom, I am Oscar Pistorius."

Sept 12, 2009 Cassidy Taylor-Memmory charged Oscar with assault when he punched a door so hard that a piece broke and fell on her leg following an argument with his then girlfriend, Melissa Rom.

Sept 6, 2011 Stormed out of a BBC radio interview after taking exception to a question about his fight to take part in non-disabled athletics.

Oct 2011
At a Kings of Leon concert he was very drunk and stumbled into a group of people. Later, two women were practically shoved off their feet by an aggressive Oscar. One told him his behaviour was rude and unacceptable. He was extremely abusive to the two women, calling them “*advertiser censored**ing lesbians”. One of the women said “What is your problem?” to which he replied, “I’m drunk, what’s yours?”

May 2012 Mothers had to remove their children from the gym because of his continual swearing. He was known to rant and rave as he struggled to complete the simplest of routines, would stalk out in a fury, returning only when his anger had expired.

June/July, 2012 Attended a shooting range with friends, including Francois Hougaard, and fired at a watermelon which exploded. He said,” It’s a lot softer than brain, but *advertiser censored**, it feels like a zombie stopper.”

July/Aug 2012 Temper tantrum at the London Paralympics when he lost a race to Brazilian, Alan Oliveira whom he wrongly accused of using illegal blades. Following his outburst on the track, he was taken to an underground room where he went on a 2 hour rampage, shouting, screaming, crying, hitting tables, kicking walls and throwing furniture around. Each time Paralympic chiefs went into the room to try and calm him down, they saw a fresh escalation of his hysterical reaction. Oliviera said, "He saw me at the Olympic village and refused to talk to me. He told the media that he apologised to me but that never happened. He apologised to the media but never to me."

July/Aug 2012 Room-mate, Arnu Fourie changed rooms to get away from Oscar’s constant screaming on the phone.

Sept 2012 Enraged by jealousy, Oscar confronted and swore at Quinton van der Burgh at the Kyalami racetrack about his relationship with Sam Taylor. He said he would break his legs and *advertiser censored** him up.

Sept 2012 Started sending threatening SMSes to Van der Burgh

Sept 30, 2012 Fired his gun through the sunroof of a car

Nov 2012 Mark Batchelor, a friend of van der Burgh, got involved and he and Oscar exchanged threatening SMSes. Oscar threatened to break Batchelor’s legs.

Nov 2012 Justin Divaris arranged a meeting with the Hawks to settle the dispute. Batchelor said Oscar turned up with a black eye and stitches in his head because he had been involved in a fight at a party the night before. Hitman, Mikey Schultz said, “He was so pissed he fell and cut his head. He was dancing with his gun”.

Jan 2013 Tasha’s shooting incident

Jan 2013 Turned up for filming at “It Gets Better” gay and lesbian youth campaign with a very angry looking black eye

Feb 2013 Shot and killed Reeva

Apr 2013 52 days after killing Reeva, Oscar turned up, uninvited, at a private party in Illovo, Johannesburg hosted by a businessman. Guests said he was drunk, knocking back one drink after the other, including tequila shots. He hit on Kesiah Frank, a beautiful blonde model who holds a law degree. He asked her to dance and flirted with her repeatedly until she made it clear she was not interested.

Apr 6, 2013 Oscar was out partying with friends at the Kitchen Bar restaurant, throwing back shooters, and patted a friend’s girlfriend on the bottom. Patrons were shocked and thought it horribly insensitive to go out for drinks with friends so soon after Reeva's death.

After leaving the Kitchen Bar he went across the road to the Buddha Ta cocktail lounge accompanied by Craig Lipschitz who was involved in a vicious brawl with former bouncer, Guil Yahav. Lipschitz is always accompanied by 4 bodyguards. Yahav was implicated in the vicious murder of another bouncer, Patrick Caetano who was hacked to death with a butcher’s knife at the Kyalami Business Park and was caught on CCTV.

July 12 2014 Oscar attended The VIP Room nightclub with Guil Yahav who introduced him to Jared Mortimer (a friend of Marc Batchelor). Yahav had been involved in a vicious murder in 2002. Oscar was drunk and got into a brawl Mortimer.

July 12 2014 The club’s bouncers were asked to remove Oscar after he then got into a confrontation with another man.

Date unknown Berated his housekeeper Frank Chiziweni in front of an American TV crew. With the cameraman and sound-man looking on, he screamed 'What the f--- are you doing? Have I not told you a thousand f------ times to close that garage door? Are you f------ mad?’

Date unknown His biographer Gianni Merlo said, "He could get very furious suddenly"

Date unknown Was driving on the outskirts of a black township when a dog ran under his wheels. Its back was clearly broken. He stopped and got out of his car to find that the dog's owner had come out on to the street, shouting, cursing, gesticulating. What to do? Her grabbed his gun, shot the dog through the back of the head and drove off.

Can you believe it ... I just added 2 more - 9 March 2009 and the very last entry. I just remembered the dog and while preparing my edit saw that sleuth-d remembered it too. Yes, it did happen.
 
This article highlights much of the trial fairly well(even if I think it's writers are a little too pro OP), if you want to give it a quick read. I believe some of the links from it might provide you with further answers, without having to watch all the trial footage which gets very tedious.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...storius-the-case-against-the-paralympian.html

Wow , thanks , One thing so far , I hadn't read about the injuries first hand . It turns out that there is nothing saying that splinters were integral to any bullet wounds , in fact quite the opposite :

' there were bullet wounds ......etc......and there wereadditional injuries from splinters .....

Pathologists have to be accurate with language . This language might be error, but it clearly separates bullet wounds on the one hand: splinter wounds elsewhere ... ..
 
Re your list post JJ - thanks a lot and holy dooley! When it is all put down like that it certainly is a long list. I was also unaware that the temper tantrum after losing to the Brazilian guy lasted for two hours. Two hours! That is a long time to be in an uncontrollable rage.
It's a massive list and goes to show just what a loose canon he was. The fact he could lose it so quickly helps to explain how he was 'able' to kill Reeva. He must have thought nothing could ever touch him and that he'd always be able to get out of any mess he created, just as he always had.
 
For those who are new to this forum, here's a list of all OP's indiscretions, misdemeanours, confrontations etc. that have been published over the years. It's interesting to note the escalation from the 2012 Olympics onwards.

Oscar is a Danger to Society

2002 At 15 he was allowed to drive Carl’s car illegally around Pretoria

circa 2003 Rumours reached some teachers that he had a violent temper – that sometimes he ‘flipped’, as one of them put it – and that he threatened the younger boys

May 2004 Bought his first car when he was 17, too young for a driver’s licence

Feb 14, 2006 Nodded off at the wheel after setting off for Vicky Miles’ house, 400 miles from his, at 3am after they had a blistering row. One side of his vehicle was completely destroyed.

2008 Oscar’s ex-stylist, Francois Louw, witnessed a terrifying temper tantrum whilst they worked together to create a fragrance. When there was an issue when delivering the finished products, Oscar screamed, swore, kicked the garage door, went inside and screamed even louder, swearing constantly. He also threatened Louw’s family.

July 2008 Just before the Beijing Olympics he swore at a South African reporter for quoting an athletics coach who said Oscar wasn’t yet ready to run a relay. “I never realised the ‘f’ and ‘p’ words could be used in so many different ways in such quick succession,” the journalist said.

Prior to Sept 6, 2008 At the pre-games training camp for the Beijing Paralympics he phoned David O’Sullivan and raged about what he perceived to be an inadequate training kit. His fury caught O’Sullivan by surprise. Oscar “knew he couldn’t be ignored and his anger would ensure his demands were met. He wanted to go on the air and complain,” said O’Sullivan, who put him on his radio show.

Sept 12, 2009 Cassidy Taylor-Memmory charged Oscar with assault when he punched a door so hard that a piece broke and fell on her leg following an argument with his then girlfriend, Melissa Rom.

Feb 21, 2009 Crashed his boat into a relatively new pier on the Vaal River which shattered his face and nearly cost him his life. He lied when he said that 1) the pier was submerged; 2) it happened at sunset (it was after 10pm); and 3) he hadn’t been drinking. (He was seen drinking in a river pub and 3 empty bottles of liquor were found on his boat. He was never breath tested).

Feb 21, 2009 A further individual had an altercation with Oscar on the river that same evening which occurred “long” after sunset but before the boating accident took place.

Sept 6, 2011 Stormed out of a BBC radio interview after taking exception to a question about his fight to take part in non-disabled athletics.

Oct 2011
At a Kings of Leon concert he was very drunk and stumbled into a group of people. Later, two women were practically shoved off their feet by an aggressive Oscar. One told him his behaviour was rude and unacceptable. He was extremely abusive to the two women, calling them “*advertiser censored**ing lesbians”. One of the women said “What is your problem?” to which he replied, “I’m drunk, what’s yours?”

May 2012 Mothers had to remove their children from the gym because of his continual swearing. He was known to rant and rave as he struggled to complete the simplest of routines, would stalk out in a fury, returning only when his anger had expired.

June/July, 2012 Attended a shooting range with friends, including Francois Hougaard, and fired at a watermelon which exploded. He said,” It’s a lot softer than brain, but *advertiser censored**, it feels like a zombie stopper.”

July/Aug 2012 Temper tantrum at the London Paralympics when he lost a race to Brazilian, Alan Oliveira whom he wrongly accused of using illegal blades. Following his outburst on the track, he was taken to an underground room where he went on a 2 hour rampage, shouting, screaming, crying, hitting tables, kicking walls and throwing furniture around. Each time Paralympic chiefs went into the room to try and calm him down, they saw a fresh escalation of his hysterical reaction. Oliviera said, "He saw me at the Olympic village and refused to talk to me. He told the media that he apologised to me but that never happened. He apologised to the media but never to me."

July/Aug 2012 Room-mate, Arnu Fourie changed rooms to get away from Oscar’s constant screaming on the phone.

Sept 2012 Enraged by jealousy, Oscar confronted and swore at Quinton van der Burgh at the Kyalami racetrack about his relationship with Sam Taylor. He said he would break his legs and *advertiser censored** him up.

Sept 2012 Started sending threatening SMSes to Van der Burgh

Sept 30, 2012 Fired his gun through the sunroof of a car

Nov 2012 Mark Batchelor, a friend of van der Burgh, got involved and he and Oscar exchanged threatening SMSes. Oscar threatened to break Batchelor’s legs.

Nov 2012 Justin Divaris arranged a meeting with the Hawks to settle the dispute. Batchelor said Oscar turned up with a black eye and stitches in his head because he had been involved in a fight at a party the night before. Hitman, Mikey Schultz said, “He was so pissed he fell and cut his head. He was dancing with his gun”.

Jan 2013 Tasha’s shooting incident

Jan 2013 Turned up for filming at “It Gets Better” gay and lesbian youth campaign with a very angry looking black eye

Feb 2013 Shot and killed Reeva

Apr 2013 52 days after killing Reeva, Oscar turned up, uninvited, at a private party in Illovo, Johannesburg hosted by a businessman. Guests said he was drunk, knocking back one drink after the other, including tequila shots. He hit on Kesiah Frank, a beautiful blonde model who holds a law degree. He asked her to dance and flirted with her repeatedly until she made it clear she was not interested.

Apr 6, 2013 Oscar was out partying with friends at the Kitchen Bar restaurant, throwing back shooters, and patted a friend’s girlfriend on the bottom. Patrons were shocked and thought it horribly insensitive to go out for drinks with friends so soon after Reeva's death.

After leaving the Kitchen Bar he went across the road to the Buddha Ta cocktail lounge accompanied by Craig Lipschitz who was involved in a vicious brawl with former bouncer, Guil Yahav. Lipschitz is always accompanied by 4 bodyguards. Yahav was implicated in the vicious murder of another bouncer, Patrick Caetano who was hacked to death with a butcher’s knife at the Kyalami Business Park and was caught on CCTV.

July 12 2014 Oscar attended The VIP Room nightclub with Guil Yahav who introduced him to Jared Mortimer (a friend of Marc Batchelor). Yahav had been involved in a vicious murder in 2002. Oscar was drunk and got into a brawl Mortimer.

July 12 2014 The club’s bouncers were asked to remove Oscar after he then got into a confrontation with another man.

Date unknown Berated his housekeeper Frank Chiziweni in front of an American TV crew. With the cameraman and sound-man looking on, he screamed 'What the f--- are you doing? Have I not told you a thousand f------ times to close that garage door? Are you f------ mad?’

Date unknown His biographer Gianni Merlo said, "He could get very furious suddenly

is the dog shooting incident just a vicious rumour?
 
http://www.news.com.au/world/africa...o-home-detention/story-fnh81gzi-1227580548021

... Dr Curlewis believes the appeal will fail.“The appeal judges have to rule that the decision was palpably wrong,” he said. “This is a very politically sensitive case and the appeal judges come from the same background as Judge Masipa. There is no new evidence produced. It is all done by going through the evidence presented in the trial. They will have already done their reading. The decision will only take a few hours, and I think they will give her the benefit of the doubt...

Previous thread:
Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #65 ~ the appeal~

Link to Oscar Pistorius Forum Index

RSBM and BIB Well he was wrong about that.
 
is the dog shooting incident just a vicious rumour?
Haha. That little indiscretion must have been accidentally left out! No matter who says he was being 'kind' killing the dog (that he'd run over) and putting it out of its misery - there is just no excuse as to why he didn't utter a word to the owner who was standing right there. If you shoot and kill someone's dog, wouldn't you even acknowledge it? He just drove off without a word. It's such a cold thing to do, given that he supposedly likes dogs and had his own.
 
Correct soozie. Refer back to my amended post up the page which Lithgow kindly asked to be carried over. Not only, but also ... an entry for 9 March 2009.

He was so well protected by family, friends, the media and others that I'm certain there would be others that we're unaware of.
 
Correct soozie. Refer back to my amended post up the page which Lithgow kindly asked to be carried over. Not only, but also ... an entry for 9 March 2009.

He was so well protected by family, friends, the media and others that I'm certain there would be others that we're unaware of.
I think his list of 'misdemeanours' is almost as long as the people he blamed at his trial!
 
From mrjitty (previous thread) RSBM

But if the door was not locked - would he have come up with the locked door/breaking down the door idea so quickly?

If you place yourself in his shoes and consider that you have been bashing the toilet door with a bat then shot your girlfriend, your awareness of the events is to the fore. You will know that there are tiles on the floor that fell when you struck the door frame and that would alert you to the marks on the door (if you hadn't already spotted them). How will you explain the scene? You have minutes to make something up. I don't think his problem was figuring what to say and do, he just messed it up (blood on bat). We think he made other mistakes too in staging the scene because he necessarily had to act in haste. If we're right, I wouldn't mind betting this part of the staging came late in his thinking, hence the blood.
 
From mrjitty (previous thread) RSBM

If you place yourself in his shoes and consider that you have been bashing the toilet door with a bat then shot your girlfriend, your awareness of the events is to the fore. You will know that there are tiles on the floor that fell when you struck the door frame and that would alert you to the marks on the door (if you hadn't already spotted them). How will you explain the scene? You have minutes to make something up. I don't think his problem was figuring what to say and do, he just messed it up (blood on bat). We think he made other mistakes too in staging the scene because he necessarily had to act in haste. If we're right, I wouldn't mind betting this part of the staging came late in his thinking, hence the blood.

I find this whole aspect of the staging fascinating. Do you have time to discuss it?

My feeling is that the staging of the body was by far the biggest mistake - due to the "S" arterial bleed

I think it is also possible that shooting through the door is part of the staging of the murder - in other words he decided specifically to shoot her that way

Also - due to the early arrival of Dr Stipp he had no time to fix up the scene in the bedroom

The cricket bar/door was probably not a bad effort - but it only succeeded because of the fortunate factor that witnesses mistook that sound for gunshots
 
I'm certain there would be others that we're unaware of.

Exactly

This is why as neighbours, we rang the police every single time our charming downstairs neighbour was attacking his young pregnant girlfriend.

The police never did anything - but i wanted to create a track record of incident reports for when he eventually did put her in hospital.

Eventually he moved out before that happened - but not before he also threatened numerous people in the house.

The profile of this type of guy is really not unusual.
 
I find this whole aspect of the staging fascinating. Do you have time to discuss it?

My feeling is that the staging of the body was by far the biggest mistake - due to the "S" arterial bleed

I think it is also possible that shooting through the door is part of the staging of the murder - in other words he decided specifically to shoot her that way

Also - due to the early arrival of Dr Stipp he had no time to fix up the scene in the bedroom

The cricket bar/door was probably not a bad effort - but it only succeeded because of the fortunate factor that witnesses mistook that sound for gunshots
I'm here off and on so my replies might be slow coming.

I do not think he planned to murder Reeva. If he had he'd have done a better job of concocting his story. I really believe that it was the result of a domino sequence of escalating events.

I also disagree about Dr Stipp inasmuch as he had already called Stander, Netcare and Security: all preceded by calling for help - he was never going to be able to control who arrived and when.

The final four bangs were gunshots and that is what the ear witnesses reported hearing. The cricket bat hitting the door for the final time may have been what woke Mrs Nhlengethwa. The Stipps were inside, Dr Stipp getting ready to go to the gate. They were the only people to hear the bat the first time (if it was the bat) because of their proximity and they were awake (she was, and he could only have been dozing - recall that Baba had previously spoken to him between 02:00 and 02:55 about the balcony window being open).

To quote Dixon (17 April 2014):
"My Lady, what I know about the way the recording was done: the gunshots are of a much higher cracking sound, the bat is lower, doesn't travel"

Oscar was fighting a rear guard action after the shooting.
 
Snipped with respect

For those who are new to this forum, here's a list of all OP's indiscretions, misdemeanours, confrontations etc. that have been published over the years. It's interesting to note the escalation from the 2012 Olympics onwards.

Oscar is a Danger to Society

What an excellent post. Great to have all those incidents in one place. Really confirms what an angry unbalanced character OP was.
 
I'm here in off and on so my replies might be slow coming.

I do not think he planned to murder Reeva. If he had he'd have done a better job of concocting his story. I really believe that it was the result of a domino sequence of escalating events.

I also disagree about Dr Stipp inasmuch as he had already called Stander, Netcare and Security: all preceded by calling for help - he was never going to be able to control who arrived and when.

The final four bangs were gunshots and that is what the ear witnesses reported hearing. The cricket bat hitting the door for the final time may have been what woke Mrs Nhlengethwa. The Stipps were inside, Dr Stipp getting ready to go to the gate. They were the only people to hear the bat the first time (if it was the bat) because of their proximity and they were awake (she was, and he could only have been dozing - recall that Baba spoke to him before the shooting about the balcony window being open).

To quote Dixon (17 April 2014):
"My Lady, what I know about the way the recording was done: the gunshots are of a much higher cracking sound, the bat is lower, doesn't travel"

He was fighting a rear guard action after the shooting.

I tend to think (by not calling for emergency assistance - which is what anyone would do!) his idea was for Stander to take Reeva to hospital. IMO he called security because otherwise they would turn up anyway - but he did not ask them to attend?

He planned to clean up in that time before any one official arrived.

In your view, if the toilet door was not locked - why did he shoot her thru the door?

The mechanics of the shooting actually fit a deliberate attempt to create an intruder scenario - i.e shooting precisely as he entered

IMO this part all had to be changed and slowed down one the defence got access to the witness statements and realised all the screaming had been heard.

Had all this not been heard, then it could have been run much more like a realistic encounter

In his bail affadavit everything is much more fluid. He shouts to Reeva. He shouts out the intruder. He notices the open window. He hears the noise. he shoots.

In the trial version, this has to turn into extended screaming and sillyness.

IMO he knew about this kind of shooting, and thus decided in those last minutes to kill her in this staged way
 
I tend to think (by not calling for emergency assistance - which is what anyone would do!) his idea was for Stander to take Reeva to hospital. IMO he called security because otherwise they would turn up anyway - but he did not ask them to attend?

He planned to clean up in that time before any one official arrived.

In your view, if the toilet door was not locked - why did he shoot her thru the door?

The mechanics of the shooting actually fit a deliberate attempt to create an intruder scenario - i.e shooting precisely as he entered

IMO this part all had to be changed and slowed down one the defence got access to the witness statements and realised all the screaming had been heard.

Had all this not been heard, then it could have been run much more like a realistic encounter

In his bail affadavit everything is much more fluid. He shouts to Reeva. He shouts out the intruder. He notices the open window. He hears the noise. he shoots.

In the trial version, this has to turn into extended screaming and sillyness.

IMO he knew about this kind of shooting, and thus decided in those last minutes to kill her in this staged way
Because he didn't plan it. She had run back into the toilet after being hit on the back with the gun handle. If she had her phone and was yelling that she was going to call the police .... He had his gun and had lost his temper and he fired the first shot as he entered the bathroom and she was closing/had just closed the toilet door.
 
Have you considered that if Mr Nhlengethwa could see Security talking to the Stipps from his bedroom window then so could Oscar from the open bathroom window? This might have had an effect on his post-shooting thinking.
 
Have you considered that if Mr Nhlengethwa could see Security talking to the Stipps from his bedroom window then so could Oscar from the open bathroom window? This might have had an effect on his post-shooting thinking.

absolutely, his actions/thinking had to speed up...
op had made no calls at this point, not even to stander... and then immediately made 4 calls very quickly.

even if he couldn't see the stipps and security conversing directly/clearly, he would have been able to hear the voices in the otherwise quiet of the early hours.

and of course the security buggy then proceeded from the stipps house - not back towards the security gate - but in the other direction. the other direction led right towards his house.
 
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