Day 5 The John, Patsy and Burke's behavior/ The 12 days of JonBenet

Tricia

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Day 5 we are going to discuss the behavior of John, Patsy, and Burke the morning JonBenet's body was found on up to today.

It is true that everyone grieves differently. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't use our common sense when looking at the behavior of another person.

Law Enforcement judges how people act all the time and use this judgment as a guideline whether to judge someone a suspect or not.

When the behaviors and statements from the Ramsey's are put all together it is shocking. It's the totality of this list that is stunning.

What behaviors and/or statements from any one of the three people in the house that night that make you believe there was not an intruder.

I have a long list of things but I'm only going to post one here because it is the one that is the most upsetting to me.

Paraphrasing an interview with Barabara Walters John said he believed there was a stun gun used on JonBenet. When Barbara Walters asked why he didn't have JonBenet's body exhumed so experts can decide for certain if they are stun gun marks John said, again paraphrasing, " No we are not going to exhume her. Let her rest".

REALLY? You ask any parent of a murdered child if they would rather their child's body "rest" than exhume her to find evidence that could provide a HUGE clue to her killer they would say "EXHUME" before you could even finish your statement.

If John really is a Christian he should know that is not JonBenet in the grave. She is not "resting". It is her earthly body that will decay away and mean nothing in her journey to heaven.

If this was the only thing or one of only a few things from the Ramseys I would chalk it up to the stress of the situation but it seems like, in my opinion, that the Ramseys did so many things that were inappropriate that it is almost impossible to think of them as innocent.

I don't believe a list of Ramsey behaviors/statements has ever been put together. Let's make that list now.

What behavior or statement from the Ramseys that make you believe one, both, or all three, were involved in the death of JonBenet.

I am anxious to read your views so jump in and post.

All my posts are my opinion only by the way.

Tricia
 
The apathy of the 10am deadline, given in the ransom note. They're frantic because their daughter has been kidnapped and the ransom note says we'll call at 10 ..... and then they don't call?? In a genuine abduction, surely the parents would think "oh no, they've seen that we called the cops, they're not calling us, they're going to behead her"
 
bringing this over from the no intruder thread

Its the fact that they didnt bother to ask BR whether he heard, saw anything after JB went... missing.
The fact that JR himself said that the investigators were hired to prepare his defence, not to look for an intruder.
The fact that his attys brought in J. Douglas to tell them whether he is capable of such a crime or not.
The fact that they said only a few days after the murder that they wanna go on.
JRs trips to the basement.And his explanations about that afterwards.
What they said on LKL, it was a pedo but no there is no evidence she was sexually assaulted.
The fact that they spent all the money for their defence but not a single cent to look for an intruder.
 
Day 5 we are going to discuss the behavior of John, Patsy, and Burke the morning JonBenet's body was found on up to today.

It is true that everyone grieves differently. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't use our common sense when looking at the behavior of another person.

Law Enforcement judges how people act all the time and use this judgment as a guideline whether to judge someone a suspect or not.

When the behaviors and statements from the Ramsey's are put all together it is shocking. It's the totality of this list that is stunning.

What behaviors and/or statements from any one of the three people in the house that night that make you believe there was not an intruder.

I have a long list of things but I'm only going to post one here because it is the one that is the most upsetting to me.

Paraphrasing an interview with Barabara Walters John said he believed there was a stun gun used on JonBenet. When Barbara Walters asked why he didn't have JonBenet's body exhumed so experts can decide for certain if they are stun gun marks John said, again paraphrasing, " No we are not going to exhume her. Let her rest".

REALLY? You ask any parent of a murdered child if they would rather their child's body "rest" than exhume her to find evidence that could provide a HUGE clue to her killer they would say "EXHUME" before you could even finish your statement.

If John really is a Christian he should know that is not JonBenet in the grave. She is not "resting". It is her earthly body that will decay away and mean nothing in her journey to heaven.

If this was the only thing or one of only a few things from the Ramseys I would chalk it up to the stress of the situation but it seems like, in my opinion, that the Ramseys did so many things that were inappropriate that it is almost impossible to think of them as innocent.

I don't believe a list of Ramsey behaviors/statements has ever been put together. Let's make that list now.

What behavior or statement from the Ramseys that make you believe one, both, or all three, were involved in the death of JonBenet.

I am anxious to read your views so jump in and post.

All my posts are my opinion only by the way.

Tricia

@bold

you would not have made such a scandal to rush the autopsy in the first place!who knows what other tests they might have conducted and what else they might have found out
 
The apathy of the 10am deadline, given in the ransom note. They're frantic because their daughter has been kidnapped and the ransom note says we'll call at 10 ..... and then they don't call?? In a genuine abduction, surely the parents would think "oh no, they've seen that we called the cops, they're not calling us, they're going to behead her"

Yes, I mentioned this in another thread, recently. It's shocking that they weren't watching the clock, and then completely hysterical at 10am! Unbelievable. I'll also add that they had no problem with LE showing up in marked cars, and several people coming over.
 
The fact that the note said she will be BEHEADED if they called police.whats the first thing they did?call police without even consulting each other, come on, those were INTELLIGENT people.I dont buy it.
 
You all bring up a great point. If this really was a kidnapping any person would be near hysteria waiting for the 10 AM phone call but alas, John and Patsy let the 10 AM deadline go by without a whisper.

Also, if one of your children was killed by a "foreign faction" and you had no idea who these people were or where they were hiding would you let your 9 year old son go back to school like nothing happened?

Wouldn't you be hiding your other child and never letting them out of your sight?

The fact that the foreign faction never gave John or Patsy pause to worry about Burke is another huge red flag at the most.
 
would you let your 9 year old son go back to school like nothing happened?

Even without the foreign faction I'm not sure I would send my child back to school. With all the media hype and the accusations that BDI. Going back to school would be traumatising for the brother of the victim. He would be exposed to all the things they said they were protecting him from.
 
I can't handle the totality of it all. The RN in PR's handwriting is sufficient for me to know that this was a familial murder and all 3 know what happened.
 
the fact that JR called his pilot and wanted to leave town right after the body was discovered?if this is not a red flag....
 
oh my gosh!
let me start with thank you so much tricia for letting me join :)
it is such an honour to be able to converse with you and all the wonderful ws-ers
far out could right a book on this topic sadly!
if i had to pick what bothers me most and it is accumulatively ......the complete lack of feeling empathy love adoration sadness loss devastation i would expect one to feel if faced with the ramsay "kidnapping/murder" of this absolutely adorable little princess who by all means was ready to set the world on fire.
the disassociation from JB really really gets to me.
it just screams the obvious .
i often find in many life scenerios its not what is said.....but what isnt thats telling :-(
thanks again for letting me share my thoughts.....
btw...am so excited for the upcoming JB events but im in australia so delayed tv meh!
cheers x
 
They discover their child missing and they're frantically searching for her. There is 3 pages sitting on the stairs that they didn't write but they do not touch it and only read the first few lines.

Sent from my SM-P550 using Tapatalk
 
One of the big ones for me is them not talking about all the things JonBenet can never experience now, but rather how she's better off dead because she'll never know the hardships Patsy has faced.
 
The fact that their daughter was missing, a ransom not was found with threats of beheading, yet they left there other child unattended for hours alone in his room! He would have been glued to me like an extra rib!
 
Everything used to bother me about John and Patsy's behavior. I guess if I would put one over the others, it would have been John and Patsy being in different rooms.
 
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/09/...murder-case-before-team-of-forensics-experts/

“Of course, one of the key witnesses, Patsy Ramsey, is gone, having passed away some years ago from ovarian cancer, after the death of her daughter. What would each of you ask her, if you could get one question?” Gionet asked.

“I would ask her for exactly whatever she remembered about the initial moments when she found that letter on the staircase. Those critical initial moments of the investigation that nobody else was around for. She’s the only witness to those moments,” Clemente responded.
 
The fact that when Fleet White flew up the stairs screaming for someone to call an ambulance, Patsy stayed in her comfy chair.
The fact that when her husband carried their child's lifeless body up the stairs, Patsy stayed in her comfy chair until one of her bff's lead her into the livingroom.
 
The fact that when Fleet White flew up the stairs screaming for someone to call an ambulance, Patsy stayed in her comfy chair.
The fact that when her husband carried their child's lifeless body up the stairs, Patsy stayed in her comfy chair until one of her bff's lead her into the livingroom.
Yep yep yep yep yep. YEP.
 
Staging
When investigators approach a crime scene, they should look for behavioral "clues" left by the offender. This is when investigators attempt to find answers to several critical questions. How did the encounter between the offender and victim occur? Did the offender blitz (ambush) the victim, or did he use verbal means (the con) to capture her? Did the offender use ligatures to control the victim? What was the sequence of events? Was the victim sexually assaulted before or after death? When did the mutilation take place--before or after death? Did the offender place any item at the crime scene or remove something from the crime scene?

As investigators analyze crime scenes, facts may arise that baffle them. These details may contain peculiarities that serve no apparent purpose in the perpetration2 of the crime and obscure the underlying motive of the crime. This confusion may be the result of a crime scene behavior called staging. Staging occurs when someone purposely alters the crime scene prior to the arrival of the police.

Reasons for Staging
Principally, staging takes place for two reasons--to direct the investigation away from the most logical suspect or to protect the victim or victim's family. It is the offender who attempts to redirect the investigation. This offender does not just happen to come upon a victim, but is someone who almost always has some kind of association or relationship with the victim. This person, when in contact with law enforcement, will attempt to steer the investigation away from himself, usually by being overly cooperative or extremely distraught. Therefore, investigators should never eliminate a suspect who displays such distinctive behavior.

The second reason for staging, to protect the victim or the victim's family, occurs for the most part in rape-murder crimes or autoerotic fatalities. This type of staging is performed by the family member or person who finds the body. Since perpetrators of such crimes leave their victims in degrading positions, those who find the bodies attempt to restore some dignity to the victim. For example, a husband may redress or cover his wife's body, or in the case of an autoerotic fatality,3 a wife may cut the noose or the device suspending the body of her husband.

Basically, these people are trying to prevent future shock that may be brought about by the position, dress, or condition of the victim. In addition, they will often stage an autoerotic fatality to look like a suicide, perhaps even writing a suicide note. They may even go so far as to the make it appear to be a homicide.

For both types of crime scene investigations, rape-murders and autoerotic fatalities, investigators need to obtain an accurate description of the body's condition when found and to determine exactly what the person who found the body did to alter the crime scene. Scrutiny of forensic findings, crime scene dynamics, and victimology will probably reveal the true circumstances surrounding the deaths.

Finally, at some crime scenes, investigators must discern if the scene is truly disorganized or if the offender staged it to appear careless and haphazard. This determination not only helps to direct the analysis to the underlying motive but also helps to shape the offender profile. However, recognition of staging, especially with a shrewd offender, can be difficult. Investigators must examine all factors of the crime if they suspect it has been staged. This is when forensics, victimology, and minute crime scene details become critical to determine if staging occurred.

"Red Flags"
Offenders who stage crime scenes usually make mistakes because they arrange the scene to resemble what they believe it should look like. In so doing, offenders experience a great deal of stress and do not have the time to fit all the pieces together logically. As a result, inconsistencies in forensic findings and in the overall "big picture" of the crime scene will begin to appear. These inconsistencies can serve as the "red flags" of staging, which serve to prevent investigations from becoming misguided.

To ensure this doesn't happen, investigators should scrutinize all crime scene indicators individually, then view them in context with the total picture. Crime scene indicators include all evidence of offender activity, e.g., method of entry, offender-victim interaction, and body disposition.
When exploring these issues, investigators should consider several factors. For example, if burglary appears to be the motive, did the offender take inappropriate items from the crime scene? In one case submitted to the National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime (NCAVC), a man returning home from work interrupted a burglary in progress. The startled burglars killed him as he attempted to flee. But, an inventory of the crime scene determined that the offenders did not steal anything, although it did appear that they started to disassemble a large stereo and TV unit.

Further examination of the crime scene revealed that they left smaller, and easily transported, items of far greater value (jewelry, coin collection, etc.). The police subsequently determined that the victim's wife paid the burglars to stage the crime and kill her husband. She, in fact, was having an affair with one of the suspects.

Another factor to consider is the point of entry. Did the point of entry make sense? For example, did the offender enter the house through a second-story window, even though there was an easier, less conspicuous entrance that could have been used? Why did the offender increase his chance of being seen by potential witnesses who might alert authorities?

Investigators should also consider whether the offender put himself at high risk by committing the crime during the daylight hours, in a populated area. If the crime scene is a place of residence, they should also evaluate any obvious signs of occupancy, such as lights on in the house, vehicles in the driveway, etc.




Forensic "Red Flags"
Forensic results that don't fit the crime should also cause investigators to consider staging. Personal assaults should raise suspicion, especially if material gain appears to be the initial motive. These assaults could include the use of a weapon of opportunity, manual or ligature strangulation, facial beating (depersonalization), and excessive trauma beyond that necessary to cause death (overkill). In other words, do the injuries fit the crime?

Sexual and domestic homicides usually demonstrate forensic findings of a close-range, personal assault. The victim, not money or property, is the primary focus of the offender. However, this type of offender will often attempt to stage a sexual or domestic homicide that appears to be motivated by personal gain. This does not imply that personal assaults never happen while a property crime is being committed, but usually these offenders prefer quick, clean kills that reduce the time spent at the scene.

Forensic red flags are also raised when there are discrepancies between witness/survivor accounts and forensics results. For example, in one case, an estranged wife found her husband in the tub with the water running. Initially, it appeared as if he slipped and struck his head on a bathroom fixture, which resulted in his death by drowning. However, toxicological reports from the autopsy showed a high level of valium in the victim's blood. Also, the autopsy revealed several concentrated areas of injury or impact points on the head, as if the victim struck his head more than once.

Subsequently, investigators learned that the wife had been with the victim on the evening of his death. She later confessed that she laced his dinner salad with valium, and when he passed out, she let three men into the house. These men had been hired by the wife to kill the victim and to make it look like an accident.

Often, investigators will find forensic discrepancies when an offender stages a rape-murder, that is, positioning the body to infer sexual assault. And if the offender has a close relationship with the victim, he will only partially remove the victim's clothing, never leaving her completely nude. However, despite the position of the body and the removal of some of the victim's clothes, an autopsy can confirm or deny whether any form of sexual assault took place, thereby determining if the crime scene was staged.

If investigators suspect a crime has been staged, they should look for signs of association between the offender and the victim. Or, as is frequently the case with domestic violence, the involvement of a third party, who is usually the one who discovers the victim. For example, in the case involving the husband who staged his wife's murder to make it look like the crime was committed by an intruder, the husband did not immediately check on his wife and daughter once he regained consciousness. Instead, he remained downstairs and called his brother, who went upstairs and discovered the victim. Offenders will often manipulate the discovery of victims by a neighbor or family member, or conveniently be elsewhere when the victim is discovered.



John Douglas
 
Their constant distancing from Jonbenet. "That child", repeatedly neglecting to say her name when it would be appropriate, etc.

Making the whole investigation about them, using every TV appearance not to talk about Jonbenet but to gain public sympathy and act like they are the real victim. I cannot imagine a loving parent acting this way after their child has been murdered.
 

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