Day 10 / The Stun Gun / The 12 days of JonBenet.

Tricia · Sep 16, 2016

Much greater minds than mine have argued and put forth evidence that the stun gun theory is not correct. Not correct at all.

When the company who actually makes the Air Taser stun gun (the type and model Lou Smit claims was used on JonBenet) comes out and basically says there is no way the marks on JonBenet were made by their stun gun. The representative totally blows apart Smit's claims.

Please let logic guide you in this discussion.

From the archives of the Boulder Daily Camera:

Air Taser representative Stephen Tuttle said he was contacted by an investigator early on in the case and provided Smit with the same model to conduct his experiments.
"I am bewildered. I don't know what to think about the theory," Tuttle said. "It defies the logic of what the weapon does."
Tuttle conceded that two marks are close to the width of the contacts of an Air Taser, but said that's where the similarities end.
"We have never seen those types of marks when you touch somebody with a stun gun," he said. "We are talking hundreds of people that have been touched with these devices. I can't replicate those marks."
Tuttle said it is uncommon for the stun gun to leave only two marks on the skin. The body moves away from the stun gun, causing multiple, erratic marks.
"How you can keep this thing perfectly still, not once, but twice on a squirming child? It doesn't make any sense," he said. "I hope that doesn't throw water on somebody's investigation."
He also said the Air Taser does not render people unconscious.

Here is a video where James Kolar discusses the stun gun [video=youtube;bMtiVFzrN8o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMtiVFzrN8o[/video]

James Kolar's book is on Amazon

James Kolar makes a logical and very likely argument that Burke's railroad tracks made the marks that Smit claimed were stun gun marks.

However, I am still waiting for permission to post a set of pictures put together by a poster on another forum. As soon as I get permission (if I get permission )

I will post them here.

If anyone has a stash of pictures of the railroad tracks comparison, please feel free to post them on this thread.

More later.

Thanks,
Tricia

BBB167893 · Sep 16, 2016

Don't forget: I had myself zapped a good number of years ago. Looked nothing like those marks, not to mention the screaming.

Sunshine4Me · Sep 16, 2016

Was this the kind that shoots out at a person or the kind you have to hold and press down onto a person? Either way there was no stun gun. I only ask because of the sound it would make. My stun gun is LOUD. It would wake a sleeping person. I can experiment if anyone would like me too. I may need a place to stay afterwards though.

*The truth is out there*

Sunshine4Me · Sep 16, 2016

SuperDave said:
Don't forget: I had myself zapped a good number of years ago. Looked nothing like those marks, not to mention the screaming.

You are brave SuperDave.

*The truth is out there*

BBB167893 · Sep 16, 2016

Sunshine4Me said:
You are brave SuperDave.

*The truth is out there*

That's how much I care.

BBB167893 · Sep 16, 2016

Sunshine4Me said:
Was this the kind that shoots out at a person or the kind you have to hold and press down onto a person? Either way there was no stun gun. I only ask because of the sound it would make. My stun gun is LOUD. It would wake a sleeping person. I can experiment if anyone would like me too. I may need a place to stay afterwards though.

*The truth is out there*

The kind you press into someone. Lou Smit thought that it was the "shooting" kind just with the wires removed so it would act like the "pressing" kind.
Yes, the one used on me was quite loud.

BoldBear · Sep 16, 2016

They left out the blue arc. It wasn't a stun gun and it wasn't the train tracks. 3.4cm which for my mind is 1.33 inches apart. Train tracks are the nail for Kolar's BDI. I absolutely have a great amount of respect for Kolar. His book is a great reference. He had a lot of courage to write and publish it.

There are squared edges on the larger mark on JB's back. An impact with the train track prongs would have to be done almost exactly perpendicular to her back. They would have been circular. They didn't break or scratch the skin. This would have had to be done in a jabbing motion and not a swinging motion. I envision a child in a fit of rage swinging and not jabbing. This was, however, the best fit for what may have caused those marks. I admire Kolar for presenting this theory.

Sunshine4Me · Sep 16, 2016

SuperDave said:
The kind you press into someone. Lou Smit thought that it was the "shooting" kind just with the wires removed so it would act like the "pressing" kind.
Yes, the one used on me was quite loud.

That's the kind I have too. I got it when I worked nights, can never be too careful. It's become more of a show piece now, and doubles as a flashlight. Friends say the noise makes their teeth chatter. I've never had the opportunity to use it as an actual stun gun but have pushed the button and the noise is unmistakable. It's extremely loud. Not something a quiet intruder would use at all.

*The truth is out there*

apabld · Sep 16, 2016

I can imagine a BDI scenario where he strikes JB in the head accidentally and she falls unconscious. Panicking, Burke looks around for something pointed to jab JB with to see if she would respond. If the head strike took place near his train set, then a train track would be the closest thing he would find to poke her with.

madeleine · Sep 16, 2016

just read that one of the CBS show experts volunteered to get tasered .they will draw conclusions re Smits theory

Tadpole12 · Sep 16, 2016

This would have had to be done in a jabbing motion - BB

could JBR's body be stationary ?

johnjay · Sep 16, 2016

apabld said:
I can imagine a BDI scenario where he strikes JB in the head accidentally and she falls unconscious. Panicking, Burke looks around for something pointed to jab JB with to see if she would respond. If the head strike took place near his train set, then a train track would be the closest thing he would find to poke her with.

Yes, I imagine something like that too.

But as I recall, during one of his interviews with Tricia, James Kolar gave a bit more of his theory, which was that JonBenet was struck in the kitchen area and carried downstairs. I don't know how he comes to that conclusion and it seems like he's talking about an area where he has to be very careful. Still, the poking of the train tracks to see if she would respond makes a lot of sense - it looks like a very hard poke.

reintarnation · Sep 16, 2016

The stun gun theory doesn't make physical or logical sense. As mentioned, the marks on JBR's body in no way correlate to marks made by an actual stun gun. You don't stun gun a sleeping child as a means to subdue them. Think about it - it's idiotic! It could be used for torture, but if she's already unconscious, what is the point?

I have always thought it odd that JR had literature in his office about stun guns and had recently been researching them. My opinion on this is that he was doing that for personal security and it was a coincidence. However, the more I watch JR in these specials and read his interviews, the more I feel like he was the cool, calm, organized hand in the staging aspects. Maybe as he crafted the staging, the stun gun he was recently reading about came into his mind, so he tried to replicate what they might look like by jabbing JBR with something. Train tracks seem plausible and were handy like the paintbrush used for the garrote.

The other possibility I've considered for the marks is the loom found in JBR's bedroom. Has anyone compared the measurements from that to the marks? My theory on this is that the loom would have been on the floor and JBR either falling or laying on top of it after the head blow, if it occurred in her bedroom. I'm not committed to this - just a thought! I'd seen this discussion pop up elsewhere in the past and wasn't sure if it had already been dismissed.

Attached photos were copied from the following page, which, toward the bottom, has a brief experiment and analysis of the loom in regard to the marks.
http://ruthees_library.tripod.com/stungun.html

Tricia · Sep 16, 2016

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...xhume-and-prove-otherwise&p=242599#post242599

Here is the partial transcript about John Ramsey and the stun gun from Barbara Walters interview.

icedtea4me · Sep 16, 2016

My guess is that she may have gotten those abrasions on her back via the wine cellar floor. The floor in that room was not smooth, flat, and immaculate. I wouldn't be surprised if it had small imperfections (i.e. jagged bumps) in its surface.

HarmonyE. · Sep 16, 2016

I've never been able to fathom why so many otherwise intelligent people believe a stun gun was used. (nor have I ever understood why a respected homicide detective like Lou Smit would bend over backwards to make a non-existent case for an intruder, but I guess he really believed people Saved By The Cross would never do the things the Ramseys did.)

First, it was only a "close match" with the stun gun Smit landed on as the only one that could have done it. In other words, it didn't match.

Secondly, why would an intruder risk the screams of a zapped child? Big brother was just down the hall and his parents just above him. An intruder would have had to have been very bold indeed, feeding JonBenet, hunting around finding materials with which to kill her and to write a fake ransom note, spending all that time concocting and writing out 2 1/2 pages of a rambling, unnecessary note...why add to the chances of discovery by risking screams when duct tape alone would have kept her quiet?

I understand why people who haven't studied this case buy into the Ramsey spin that an intruder did it. But I can't understand how people - like Smit - who know the details of the case and who are trained experts could ever buy into the notion that someone outside of the three others in the home did this.

HMSHood · Sep 16, 2016

I never thought a stun gun was used. If I recall she was hit on the head and strangled. I do not recall any stun gun being used or if anyone in the house had one.

No it's not · Sep 16, 2016

Red arrow showing right Air-Taser contact, Blue arrow showing abrasion on JBR (arrows added by me)

Train track prongs match abrasions. Middle metal stick on train track was removed for demonstration purposes according to Kolar:

Source:

Marker 37:00 ff
[video=youtube;bMtiVFzrN8o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMtiVFzrN8o[/video]

Razz · Sep 16, 2016

Why would someone like John Ramsey have use for a stun gun? Did he collect weapons or have firearms in the home? Maybe for protection purposes? I've never known anyone but LE to have one.

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

BBB167893 · Sep 17, 2016

HarmonyE. said:
I've never been able to fathom why so many otherwise intelligent people believe a stun gun was used. (nor have I ever understood why a respected homicide detective like Lou Smit would bend over backwards to make a non-existent case for an intruder, but I guess he really believed people Saved By The Cross would never do the things the Ramseys did.)

First, it was only a "close match" with the stun gun Smit landed on as the only one that could have done it. In other words, it didn't match.

Then he tried to say that the stun gun had been "modified" by the killer. Geez, Lou, give it up already.

Secondly, why would an intruder risk the screams of a zapped child? Big brother was just down the hall and his parents just above him. An intruder would have had to have been very bold indeed, feeding JonBenet, hunting around finding materials with which to kill her and to write a fake ransom note, spending all that time concocting and writing out 2 1/2 pages of a rambling, unnecessary note...why add to the chances of discovery by risking screams when duct tape alone would have kept her quiet?

It's one thing for a killer to be crazy. It's another for him to be stupid!

I understand why people who haven't studied this case buy into the Ramsey spin that an intruder did it. But I can't understand how people - like Smit - who know the details of the case and who are trained experts could ever buy into the notion that someone outside of the three others in the home did this.

That may be the biggest mystery of all.

Day 10 / The Stun Gun / The 12 days of JonBenet.

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