Identified! KY - Lexington, Vehicle & Human Bones Found in Kentucky River, Oct'16 - Martha Helmick

Gardener1850 · Oct 29, 2016

During an operation on October 22 to recover vehicles that were in the river, crews from Lexington Police and Lexington Fire found what appeared to be human remains in one of the vehicles.

The Fayette County coroner says hes not sure if the bones were in the vehicle or ended up there after washing down the river.

http://www.wtvq.com/2016/10/27/valley-view-ferry-closed-saturday-search-resumes-human-remains/

LEXINGTON, Ky. (WKYT) Fayette County Corner Gary Ginn, along with emergency crews, found more human bones in the Kentucky River Saturday.

Ginn says crews spent the day at the Valley View Ferry to pull out the remaining cars still left in the river, including that other half of the car that was found earlier this week with human remains. Coroner Ginn says they did find a bone from the leg and a couple different bones from the arm on Saturday afternoon.

He believes the car and the human remains are connected.
We did extensive cleaning on that partial vehicle the following day and we did find additional boning structures that was kind of attached to that with some nylon, not sure if it was nylon fishing line or if it was nylon material, said Ginn.

http://www.wkyt.com/content/news/Cr...-remains-in-the-Kentucky-River-399160811.html

Article also says they have an idea of who it could be and they are working with NaMus.

bflocket · Oct 30, 2016

When this was first in the news, it said "remains" were found. So I automatically thought of this...

Family, friends not giving up hope of finding body of missing northern Ky. woman
Still searching for missing woman
WKYT (Lexington, KY)

Family and friends have split up into groups searching different areas, sometimes joined by search dogs, scouring areas from Washington County to Clark County and even to Montgomery County.

The Valley View Ferry is right in the midst of the area(s) they mentioned, but I don't know if this could be her or not. She hasn't been missing/murdered long enough to be mere bones by now. At least I don't think so.

Here's a story that has a little bit more detail
Lexington divers find more bones in a vehicle pulled from the Kentucky River
Lexington Herald-Leader (Lexington, KY)
10/29/2016

One of them was badly rusted, and when the front half of it was pulled from the river, bony structures from a human foot and ankle were found, Ginn said.

On Saturday, the back half of the car was pulled out, and a right femur, two radiuses and an ulna were found.

He said it is too early to tell whether the death resulted from foul play.

At this point I dont see that, he said, adding that it could be that somebody drove into the water.

He said the vehicle was found 20 to 30 feet from shore, just downstream from the ferry.

Ginn said the foot and ankle bones found earlier were attached to some nylon that might have been from an article of clothing.

In addition to the vehicle in which the bones were found, Ginn said four other vehicles have been pulled out of the river during the operation.

.
When they mentioned car halves, I thought of somebody that chopped up a stolen car that may have disposed of a murder victim in parts of the discarded car parts.

But since he says that foul play isn't necessarily suspected, I thought it was probably a car that's been down there for so long that it corroded apart. If that's the case, maybe it could solve a long-time Central KY mystery (Melanie Dee Flynn) that way more-than-likely involves foul play.

Gardener1850 · Oct 30, 2016

Thanks for the suggestions bflocket. I think either one of those are possible. I have read that human remains degrade faster in water. Someone who went missing in July might be bones now. IDK. Although, the Ferry is abt 30 miles from the location that Crystal Warner's boyfriend, Robert Jones was found it is about midway between the cabin and his remains. Only problem would be they found their car close to Georgetown so he would have had to put her in another car to put her in the river. Rough map of the locations for Crystal Warner and Robert Jones: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Val...b3aac718a4!2m2!1d-84.5588311!2d38.2097967!3e0

I got the locations from this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...isiting-tenant-remote-cabin-bodies-found.html

CarlK90245 · Oct 31, 2016

bflocket said:
When they mentioned car halves, I thought of somebody that chopped up a stolen car that may have disposed of a murder victim in parts of the discarded car parts.

But since he says that foul play isn't necessarily suspected, I thought it was probably a car that's been down there for so long that it corroded apart. If that's the case, maybe it could solve a long-time Central KY mystery (Melanie Dee Flynn) that way more-than-likely involves foul play.

I agree that it has to be a very old case. The degree of deterioration of the vehicle suggests that it has been there for decades.

But Melanie's vehicle was recovered. So unless her body was in a vehicle not belonging to her, I would doubt that it is Melanie.

Sharon Sons might be a good possible. There is no mention that her vehicle was recovered following her disappearance.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/sons_sharon.html

bflocket · Oct 31, 2016

CarlK90245 said:
I agree that it has to be a very old case. The degree of deterioration of the vehicle suggests that it has been there for decades.

But Melanie's vehicle was recovered. So unless her body was in a vehicle not belonging to her, I would doubt that it is Melanie.

Sharon Sons might be a good possible. There is no mention that her vehicle was recovered following her disappearance.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/sons_sharon.html

Regarding Melanie Flynn, I got my bridges mixed up (Clay's Ferry vs Camp Nelson). Her purse was found near the Camp Nelson bridge b/w Lexington and Nicholasville. Clay's Ferry is the bridge just upstream of the ferry b/w Lexington and Richmond. I got them mixed up because they both seem very similar to me. Both are newer bridges that basically goes over the gorge or valley of the river and both have the "old" roads squiggling down the hill and crossing the river below the newer ones.

There are two lock/dams between the ferry and the Camp Nelson bridge, so the car has to have gone in the river above (east/SE of the ferry) where the car was found. I don't recall a flood that would have been powerful enough to carry a car down the river, especially with the locks. .

The only local MP I could find in a quick search whose car went missing with them is Joyce Gaines Crider, missing from Lexington in 10/2002.

This isn't a very good map, but it shows the area county boundaries and the Kentucky River. The ferry is right around the "c" in "Nicholasville" around the center of the map, so the car had to have gone in the river near the ferry or upstream.

Since I can't figure out how to get rid of the map I accidentally added (the "attached thumbnail"), it's a map of the county lines in ALL of Kentucky. The area of the ferry would be about the center of the state.

Also, does "nightclub dancer" mean stripper?

mmtp777 · Oct 31, 2016

There aren't many cases in KY where someone went missing with a vehicle. These are the ones I found.

Martha Sue and Claude Shelton http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/shelton_sue.html

Edward Tidwell http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/tidwell_edward.html

Harvey Kays http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/k/kays_harvey.html

Ruvil Hale http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/hale_ruvil.html

Cevil Baker http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/baker_cecil.html

bflocket · Oct 31, 2016

mmtp777 said:
There aren't many cases in KY where someone went missing with a vehicle. These are the ones I found.

Martha Sue and Claude Shelton http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/shelton_sue.html

Edward Tidwell http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/tidwell_edward.html

Harvey Kays http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/k/kays_harvey.html

Ruvil Hale http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/hale_ruvil.html

Cevil Baker http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/baker_cecil.html

It probably wouldn't look anything like the car would look in operable condition, but I wish they'd say what type of vehicle the remains were found in. I figured that you'd be able to tell "car v/s truck" or "Geo Metro v/s Cadillac de Ville."

The Sheltons would be the only ones I'd think would be probable matches, but Corbin is a little closer to the Cumberland River (actually Lake Cumberland) but not too far from the Kentucky River.

Mr Tidwell went missing from far-western Kentucky, at least in relation to the Lexington area. If Mr Baker was dumped in a river, it would likely be the Cumberland River. The closest rivers to Mr Hale would be the Big/Little Sandy Rivers.

Actually, Mr Kays may have gone into the Kentucky River, but Frankfort is pretty far downstream from the Valley View Ferry in terms of the river. It's not that far as the crow flies, but the river does a whole lot of wiggling and the remains were found upstream of there (plus having several locks and dams between them).

A recently ID'ed body (Goldia Massey), I think, had only pieces found. But I don't think the rest of her would be skeletal (or in a car) by now. But, again, the remains were found near the end (downstream of the area in question) of the KY River.

pass-thru · Oct 31, 2016

This is interesting to me. I lived in Lexington KY from 2000-2006. It is a modern city with a lot of upper crust horse farms in the rural area. But bottoms just above the flood plain along the KY river is a completely different story. The last 3 years I was in Lexington KY I rented a little tenement on a big farm that included a good amount frontage on the KY river. I was well above the flood plain but the folk that lived just above it were not to be messed with. You did not answer the door at night. One of my neighbors ended up murdered and in the river. They found the body eventually and pretty much knew who did it but it was never solved. I wonder how far this car was found from where I lived.

bflocket · Oct 31, 2016

pass-thru said:
This is interesting to me. I lived in Lexington KY from 2000-2006. It is a modern city with a lot of upper crust horse farms in the rural area. But bottoms just above the flood plain along the KY river is a completely different story. The last 3 years I was in Lexington KY I rented a little tenement on a big farm that included a good amount frontage on the KY river. I was well above the flood plain but the folk that lived just above it were not to be messed with. You did not answer the door at night. One of my neighbors ended up murdered and in the river. They found the body eventually and pretty much knew who did it but it was never solved. I wonder how far this car was found from where I lived.

I was born in Lexington and grew up near Bardstown, where I now live. I lived in Lex for about a semester in the late '90's and hung out with some folks like you speak of, but it was down Winchester Road...

I know that there were many more ferries back in the past. Many of the "X" Ferry Road's still go down by the river and either stop (being maintained) or are just grown over.
But, despite however old these remains are, I can't find another ferry (where the road would provide river access, if I'm saying that right) upstream until around Boonesboro.
There are several hair-pin curves in the KY River between Valley View and there. I don't think a vehicle could have possibly gone that far and around all of those curves

Here's an old map that shows all of the old ferries and locks. It's a PDF of Madison County (Richmand/Berea) from the 1940's. Many of the historic ferries existed back then and the Madison County map has more of river frontage in that area, county-wise.

Valley View Ferry is toward the top left, along the Fayette/Jessamine border.
View attachment KY Madison Co (KY) 1942.pdf
Madison County 1942

pass-thru · Nov 1, 2016

I will admit that I am not real keen on the geography. That looks like just a few miles of Fayette county (Lexington) river frontage. I remember hunting on the river bottom and could see deer walking on the hillside across the river, which was Madison County. I also know that across Jack's Creek Pike from the farm I lived on was a public preserve called Raven's run, which also fronted the river....I guess that is possible due to the hairpin turns.

I lived on Dry Branch road, which basically dead-ended into the river. You could easily take a car down that road, drive up or down the flood plain, and dump a car over the bank into the river.

Also, every few years the river jumps the banks there, and anything in the flood plain that is not tied down can easily get carried off into the main river. Doubt that's how a car with remains ended up there though, since there was not usually much warning before that happened.

Based on the map you provided, I was just around the hairpin turn from where that car was found at the ferry.

Otterly · Nov 1, 2016

bflocket said:
It probably wouldn't look anything like the car would look in operable condition, but I wish they'd say what type of vehicle the remains were found in. I figured that you'd be able to tell "car v/s truck" or "Geo Metro v/s Cadillac de Ville."

The Sheltons would be the only ones I'd think would be probable matches, but Corbin is a little closer to the Cumberland River (actually Lake Cumberland) but not too far from the Kentucky River.

In addition to location, I could see it being the Corbins since I could definitely see a car that has been in the water for 45 years rusting in half. Locally to me a man was found a few years back and he had gone missing in the mid 60's and the car was still in one piece, but this was in a lake. Maybe the constant flow of water in a river could accelerate the rusting process?

fred&edna · Nov 1, 2016

'Any way to search for missing persons who might have been traveling TO Kentucky? The vehicle was covered in mud/river gunk but it looked like an older SUV-type... maybe belonged to a hunter or fisherman?

Tssiemer · Nov 1, 2016

I lived in Lexington from 2004 to 2012 for college.

Could it be possible that some one threw a body in the river and it got caught on the car in the river?

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fred&edna · Nov 1, 2016

fred&edna said:
'Any way to search for missing persons who might have been traveling TO Kentucky? The vehicle was covered in mud/river gunk but it looked like an older SUV-type... maybe belonged to a hunter or fisherman?

Oops, nevermind. I believe the vehicle in the news report is not the one containing the body parts.

fred&edna · Nov 1, 2016

Tssiemer said:
I lived in Lexington from 2004 to 2012 for college.

Could it be possible that some one threw a body in the river and it got caught on the car in the river?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wondered the same, Tssiemer.

But from Gardner's first post:

"Ginn says crews spent the day at the Valley View Ferry to pull out the remaining cars still left in the river, including that other half of the car that was found earlier this week with human remains.
Coroner Ginn says they did find a bone from the leg and a couple different bones from the arm on Saturday afternoon.

He believes the car and the human remains are connected.

We did extensive cleaning on that partial vehicle the following day and we did find additional boning structures that was kind of attached to that with some nylon, not sure if it was nylon fishing line or if it was nylon material, said Ginn."

bflocket · Nov 2, 2016

Tssiemer said:
Could it be possible that some one threw a body in the river and it got caught on the car in the river?

I can't think of any time (possibly a time or so while in HS) where the river would be strong enough to carry a car very far. Especially with the curves in the river.
But if a flood would have been strong enough to carry a car, there's a lock/dam just downstream of the ferry. I haven't been there in a few years, but I'm pretty sure the said lock/dam is visible from the ferry.
That would mean it would (I'd imagine) block anything large flowing down the river. The next ferry upstream is in Boonesboro (around the Clark/Madison county line). As it would have also blocked it, I figured that if a car went in, then it went in somewhere betwixt them.

allmybecsloveme · Nov 2, 2016

Hmm. I remember when they found the cars in Foss Lake (Oklahoma) there were bodies in them. They were old missing persons cases, 1969 & 1970. They still think both cars drove straight into the water but I've always felt it was super fishy that it only happened there twice, just a year and a half apart, with three bodies in each vehicle.

But anyway, those cars were found intact, not corroded apart. So that's interesting.

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CD82 · Nov 2, 2016

allmybecsloveme said:
Hmm. I remember when they found the cars in Foss Lake (Oklahoma) there were bodies in them. They were old missing persons cases, 1969 & 1970. They still think both cars drove straight into the water but I've always felt it was super fishy that it only happened there twice, just a year and a half apart, with three bodies in each vehicle.

But anyway, those cars were found intact, not corroded apart. So that's interesting.

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The difference might be lake vs river.

A river may have salty/brackish water whereas a lake would be freshwater. I haven't checked the type of water in the river, just tossing out a possible reason.

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bflocket · Nov 3, 2016

CD82 said:
The difference might be lake vs river.

A river may have salty/brackish water whereas a lake would be freshwater. I haven't checked the type of water in the river, just tossing out a possible reason.

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I'm pretty sure that there wouldn't be any salinity to the Kentucky River. The nearby Licking River was named for salt licks in its area, but they're not big enough to make the river "salty" by any stretch of the word.

I'd think that the Kentucky River would be muddy, but otherwise fairly clean otherwise at Valley View and upstream of there. That part is basically in the foothills of the mountainous part of Kentucky. So there shouldn't be as much agricultural waste (chemical fertilizers, animal waste, etc) in it, at least anywhere near like what's in many of Kentucky's rivers. But its one of our bigger rivers, so the flow of so much water would probably erode the metal pretty good.

I've gone swimming in a local reservoir (Taylorsville Lake) a few times and I now don't don't see how/why I did that. At least after I thought about it. There's about 40 or so miles of the river above the lake and just about all of it is farmland (i.e. a "variety pack" of manures and fertilizers). If I try swimming there again, I'd have to have enough of local spirits in me to forget about all of that stuff first.

CD82 · Nov 3, 2016

bflocket said:
I'm pretty sure that there wouldn't be any salinity to the Kentucky River. The nearby Licking River was named for salt licks in its area, but they're not big enough to make the river "salty" by any stretch of the word.

That sounds like brackish water then. Any amount of salt would corrode. And, like you said, the stream may have also contributed to it.

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Identified! KY - Lexington, Vehicle & Human Bones Found in Kentucky River, Oct'16 - Martha Helmick

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