Police shoot elderly man with dementia after report he was armed with a revolver

drjones · Dec 14, 2016

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...a-bakersfield-killed-nine-20161213-story.html

About 12:30 a.m., a woman arrived at her home in the 7900 block of Silver Birch Avenue, the same block as Sernas home, and began removing items from a vehicle, Martin said. When Serna approached her, he was acting bizarrely and had one hand in his pocket, according to Martin. Police said she saw a black- or brown-handled object that she believed was a firearm.
The woman ran inside her home and told her husband to call police. The husband told a 911 dispatcher that a man outside had a revolver and had brandished the weapon.

al66pine · Dec 14, 2016

Sad, sad, sad for all.

wfgodot · Dec 14, 2016

Murder.

Tawny · Dec 14, 2016

I hope that woman (ETA: and her husband) feels the weight of what (edited)they've done

flourish · Dec 14, 2016

The woman called for help in what she perceived was a potentially dangerous situation. She didn't shoot him, the police did. It sounds like her husband was the one who called 911, not her. Why is she at fault? I'm sure she feels awful, but I don't feel she is to blame for his death.

Tawny · Dec 14, 2016

flourish said:
The woman called for help in what she perceived was a potentially dangerous situation. She didn't shoot him, the police did. It sounds like her husband was the one who called 911, not her. Why is she at fault? I'm sure she feels awful, but I don't feel she is to blame for his death.

She and/or her husband said she saw a weapon, went so far as to identify "revolver" and she didn't. JMO.

ETA: I know that seems harsh but a man died because people claimed to see a weapon that they didn't see. I would imagine the situation may have been approached different had they said "an elderly man is acting odd" vs "a man is brandishing a weapon".

flourish · Dec 14, 2016

Tawny said:
She and/or her husband said she saw a weapon, went so far as to identify "revolver" and she didn't. JMO.

ETA: I know that seems harsh but a man died because people claimed to see a weapon that they didn't see. I would imagine the situation may have been approached different had they said "an elderly man is acting odd" vs "a man is brandishing a weapon".

I understand the message relayed to the police was a man with a revolver. But it was her husband who phoned them wasn't it? So did he miscommunicate or misunderstand what she said? Was it a horrible game of telephone?

Regardless, I don't believe officers should go shooting people just on a caller's word that a weapon is present. They should determine the actual threat at the actual scene.

Was she to not call to report a situation which appeared dangerous? If he'd hurt someone besides she didn't call, that too would be tragic.

She called in a potentially dangerous situation. What the police do with that is on them, IMO. I don't see anything to indicate she purposely misinformed the police. I don't think her intention was, "okay come kill him without assessing the situation as you're trained." She requested help. Officers responded. I'd need much more information about the communication between her and her husband in order to lay blame upon her. At this point, though, it seems to me to be a case of officers taking a caller's word for it that he was armed. Also, he didn't show his hands when asked, and that doesn't usually work out well.

I do think law enforcement needs lots of ongoing training to best respond to people with disabilities or mental issues.

But I still can't blame the woman for this man's death. The police killed him, not her.

Standoffmillsy · Dec 14, 2016

People just don't think before they act

Indy Anna · Dec 14, 2016

Standoffmillsy said:
People just don't think before they act

We live in a paranoid society. I am much more likely to give someone the benefit of the doubt or further assess what seems to be a dangerous situation.

My neighborhood has improved now, but the first few years I lived here there were drug dealers living next door to me and elsewhere on my street. At one point, my spare house key was missing. During that time, someone came to my door one night and forced my screen door open, breaking the latch. Then they began pounding on my entry door and turning the knob. I didn't know if it was someone who had my spare key so I grabbed the telephone ... and waited. Whoever it was, they left and I didn't call LE. I did report the broken latch and the incident to the rental office the following day. A couple of days later, my spare house key mysteriously reappeared. I'm not sure why I didn't call LE, but I guess it's the fear of reporting someone who was at the wrong address and meant no harm, and embarrassment for myself.

Another time, I almost called LE when I thought someone was trying to break down my back door. Upon further investigation, with phone in hand, I discovered the perp was a trapped mouse in the furnace room next to the back door. :blushing:

I am not blaming the woman. Obviously, she was fearful. Obviously, too, her fears were unfounded. I guess I have a hard time blaming her for that because of all of the attacks on innocent women I read here on WS. I wouldn't want to be less sympathetic to them, but at the same time I don't want to become more fearful for myself. I couldn't handle it if something like this happened as a result of my rushing to judgment. It's also much easier to fail to communicate the situation adequately when we're under stress, which appears to be what happened here -- on the part of the woman, her husband, and perhaps the dispatcher.

I do agree that LE need to be better trained at intervening with people who have disabilities and mental illness.

AlwaysShocked · Dec 14, 2016

There is the thought among some folks that if you report that someone is "waving a gun" that police will answer that call faster.

DexterMorgan · Dec 14, 2016

Did this guy look 74 years old?

Did the police see a gun while trying to talk to him?

Iam confused.

Was this 74 year old guy looking confused to the officers since he had dementia?

So my main question is. What made them shoot first.

Tawny · Dec 14, 2016

flourish said:
I understand the message relayed to the police was a man with a revolver. But it was her husband who phoned them wasn't it? So did he miscommunicate or misunderstand what she said? Was it a horrible game of telephone?

Regardless, I don't believe officers should go shooting people just on a caller's word that a weapon is present. They should determine the actual threat at the actual scene.

Was she to not call to report a situation which appeared dangerous? If he'd hurt someone besides she didn't call, that too would be tragic.

She called in a potentially dangerous situation. What the police do with that is on them, IMO. I don't see anything to indicate she purposely misinformed the police. I don't think her intention was, "okay come kill him without assessing the situation as you're trained." She requested help. Officers responded. I'd need much more information about the communication between her and her husband in order to lay blame upon her. At this point, though, it seems to me to be a case of officers taking a caller's word for it that he was armed. Also, he didn't show his hands when asked, and that doesn't usually work out well.

I do think law enforcement needs lots of ongoing training to best respond to people with disabilities or mental issues.

But I still can't blame the woman for this man's death. The police killed him, not her.

You're right and I shouldn't blame her. I think I was projecting a lot of my own frustrations onto her. The local FB groups where I live are outrageously paranoid and we live in a SUPER safe area. They are prone to photographing people going about their business and discussing what nefarious things they may be doing. So, I agree with everything you said, and I'll check my bias at the door. I know this woman meant no harm and was calling in what she perceived to be a dangerous situation. I can't fault her that. My apologies.

All the bolded parts are what I especially agree with, btw.

Tawny · Dec 14, 2016

DexterMorgan said:
Did this guy look 74 years old?

Did the police see a gun while trying to talk to him?

Iam confused.

Was this 74 year old guy looking confused to the officers since he had dementia?

So my main question is. What made them shoot first.

My understanding of the article is that he didn't respond to commands and had both hands in his pockets.

My issue with them opening fire is that by the time shots were fired there were 6(?) other officers on scene and, yet again, deadly force is used first before any other attempts other than verbal commands. Not everyone can hear, can hear properly, or can understand or process verbal commands, so IMO, opening fire after a failure to follow verbal commands should never be the first tactic. JMHO.

katydid23 · Dec 14, 2016

Tawny said:
My understanding of the article is that he didn't respond to commands and had both hands in his pockets.

My issue with them opening fire is that by the time shots were fired there were 6(?) other officers on scene and, yet again, deadly force is used first before any other attempts other than verbal commands. Not everyone can hear, can hear properly, or can understand or process verbal commands, so IMO, opening fire after a failure to follow verbal commands should never be the first tactic. JMHO.

The problem is, that if someone has their hands in their pockets, refuses to show their hands, and has been reported by a witness as being armed---what is an officer going to think? There are not many options for them aT THAT point. They cannot tase someone who has a gun and might want to shoot. They cannot wrestle someone ....there are very few options for the officers at that point. Even rubber bullets are not really a safe option.

DexterMorgan · Dec 14, 2016

Tawny said:
My understanding of the article is that he didn't respond to commands and had both hands in his pockets.

My issue with them opening fire is that by the time shots were fired there were 6(?) other officers on scene and, yet again, deadly force is used first before any other attempts other than verbal commands. Not everyone can hear, can hear properly, or can understand or process verbal commands, so IMO, opening fire after a failure to follow verbal commands should never be the first tactic. JMHO.

EXACTLY.

So if the 74 year old wasn't wrestling with the officers.

Then this means that anyone with dementia or a serious hearing problem while having their hands in their pockets; can be killed at anytime.

And this is bull crap that shouldn't have happened unless a gun came out.

Jmo..

LE has also killed other seniors and disabled people as well that were too old or too confused to mentally be a real threat to said officers. Jmo

Tawny · Dec 14, 2016

katydid23 said:
The problem is, that if someone has their hands in their pockets, refuses to show their hands, and has been reported by a witness as being armed---what is an officer going to think? There are not many options for them aT THAT point. They cannot tase someone who has a gun and might want to shoot. They cannot wrestle someone ....there are very few options for the officers at that point. Even rubber bullets are not really a safe option.

Why can't they tase someone? Why can't they wrestle someone? There were 6 of them.

DexterMorgan · Dec 14, 2016

katydid23 said:
The problem is, that if someone has their hands in their pockets, refuses to show their hands, and has been reported by a witness as being armed---what is an officer going to think? There are not many options for them aT THAT point. They cannot tase someone who has a gun and might want to shoot. They cannot wrestle someone ....there are very few options for the officers at that point. Even rubber bullets are not really a safe option.

Kate. I love you gal.

But 74 years old and not showing a gun or tussling with officers in a deathly manner; Should not be killed imo.

DexterMorgan · Dec 14, 2016

Tawny said:
Why can't they tase someone? Why can't they wrestle someone? There were 6 of them.

Agree. 6 cops vs a 74 year old male.

This same thing happened to a 90 year old male at a hospital that was a patient and scared to have a certain surgery or something. But once several officers arrived to calm down the ill 90 year old patient; They wound up killing him while he was scared and resisting from being operated on.

Jmo.

Tawny · Dec 14, 2016

DexterMorgan said:
Agree. 6 cops vs a 74 year old male.

This same thing happened to a 90 year old male at a hospital that was a patient and scared to have a certain surgery or something. But once several officers arrived to calm down the ill 90 year old patient; They wound up killing him while he was scared and resisting from being operated on.

Jmo.

That's heartbreaking

bwt42 · Dec 14, 2016

Indy Anna said:
We live in a paranoid society. I am much more likely to give someone the benefit of the doubt or further assess what seems to be a dangerous situation.

My neighborhood has improved now, but the first few years I lived here there were drug dealers living next door to me and elsewhere on my street. At one point, my spare house key was missing. During that time, someone came to my door one night and forced my screen door open, breaking the latch. Then they began pounding on my entry door and turning the knob. I didn't know if it was someone who had my spare key so I grabbed the telephone ... and waited. Whoever it was, they left and I didn't call LE. I did report the broken latch and the incident to the rental office the following day. A couple of days later, my spare house key mysteriously reappeared. I'm not sure why I didn't call LE, but I guess it's the fear of reporting someone who was at the wrong address and meant no harm, and embarrassment for myself.

Another time, I almost called LE when I thought someone was trying to break down my back door. Upon further investigation, with phone in hand, I discovered the perp was a trapped mouse in the furnace room next to the back door. :blushing:

I am not blaming the woman. Obviously, she was fearful. Obviously, too, her fears were unfounded. I guess I have a hard time blaming her for that because of all of the attacks on innocent women I read here on WS. I wouldn't want to be less sympathetic to them, but at the same time I don't want to become more fearful for myself. I couldn't handle it if something like this happened as a result of my rushing to judgment. It's also much easier to fail to communicate the situation adequately when we're under stress, which appears to be what happened here -- on the part of the woman, her husband, and perhaps the dispatcher.

I do agree that LE need to be better trained at intervening with people who have disabilities and mental illness.

My wife gave a young man who was asking directions the benefit of the doubt and she remained standing next to her car as he approached. He put a knife to her throat.

Police shoot elderly man with dementia after report he was armed with a revolver

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