Bedwetting

Jayelles · Dec 12, 2005

JonBenet was a bedwetter. There is much dispute about whether or not she wet the bed on the night she died. I seriously doubt she was killed for a wet bed but neither do I believe that she did NOT wet the bed that night. Here's why:-

Her parents claim that she fell asleep in the car coming home from the White's house shortly after 9pm. They claim that she did not waken and was put straight to bed. THEREFORE she was not toiletted. If she did not go the toilet after attending a Christmas party, it is likely that she would have needed to empty her bladder within a few hours.

The options therefore are as follows:-

If she did not wet the bed (RST claim):-
- She DID go to the toilet and was therefore awake
- She died before she could wet the bed or go to the lavatory

OR
She DID wet the bed

Zman · Dec 12, 2005

Jayelles said:
JonBenet was a bedwetter. There is much dispute about whether or not she wet the bed on the night she died. I seriously doubt she was killed for a wet bed but neither do I believe that she did NOT wet the bed that night. Here's why:-

Her parents claim that she fell asleep in the car coming home from the White's house shortly after 9pm. They claim that she did not waken and was put straight to bed. THEREFORE she was not toiletted. If she did not go the toilet after attending a Christmas party, it is likely that she would have needed to empty her bladder within a few hours.

The options therefore are as follows:-

If she did not wet the bed (RST claim):-
- She DID go to the toilet and was therefore awake
- She died before she could wet the bed or go to the lavatory
OR
She DID wet the bed

Or how about...She was removed from her bed before she could wet it.

But even if her bed is wet what does that prove?
There's a good chance that I would wet my bed if I was attacked in the middle of the night.

sandraladeda · Dec 12, 2005

Good points, Jayelles.

If she did go to the toilet during the night (on her own or escorted by a parent?), this would be the ideal time to go for a snack of pineapple.

On the topic of bedwetting, it occurred to me that, a child who wets the bed quite regularly could conceivably suffer more vaginal irritations than a non-bed wetting child. To wet oneself, then marinate in one's own urine for several hours could be quite irritating to delicate tissues. This could account for the numerous doctor's visits, and provide a stronger explanation for her condition than the possibility that she had been molested.

imho

Nuisanceposter · Dec 12, 2005

She absolutely would have needed to use the toilet at some point during the night. I think she might have fallen asleep while on route home but awakened upon arriving home, and was most likely told to use the toilet at that point before she even retired to bed. I should think she would have been awakened and encouraged to use the toilet even if she stayed asleep while being carried in...it was Patsy's usual routine to wake her up to use the bathroom during the night, right? Why not that night? I assume she woke up, either used the toilet or didn't have to, then asked for a snack, and after that it started to go wrong. I think Patsy killed her accidentally. I think P was overwrought and worn out and ended up snapping over something, with all of the stress of the holiday and the trip looming in the morning.

As for the bedwetting...yeah, that's a contributor if you ask Dr. Beuf, along with the bubble bath. You would think needing to see him 27 times in 3 years would either get you to stop using bubble bath on your child and take her to a psychiatrist to see about the bedwetting (what with the Rs stellar insurance that they took full advantage of), but you would think that would be what you wouldn't do if you didn't want anyone to suspect that the girl in question was being molested. She had acute and chronic vaginal injuries...laying in your own urine does not create injuries to your vagina. A rash, yes, but not an injury. Someone had been molesting her.

Cranberry · Dec 12, 2005

IMO the bed wasn't slept in, so I don't think she wet the bed. The pink jammie top was under the pillow where it was left Christmas morning, the bed looked undisturbed, probably as left prior to leaving for the party. IMO the white blanket with the barbie nightgown clinging to it came from the cellar dryer.

Jayelles · Dec 12, 2005

Zman said:
Or how about...She was removed from her bed before she could wet it.

But even if her bed is wet what does that prove?
There's a good chance that I would wet my bed if I was attacked in the middle of the night.

That's one of the points I am making - that she met her killer before she had the chance to wet the bed.

That she died soon after arriving home also ties in with one possibility in the pineapple timeline (that she ate the pineapple BEFORE going to the Whites and died around 10pm).

BrendaStar · Dec 12, 2005

I distinctly remember from the facts coming out at that time that:

The bed had been remade

Sheets were in the dryer next to the bedroom. The sheets had been washed. The conclusion being that JBR had wet her bed that night and the sheets had been washed. The housekeeper testified that there were no sheets in the dryer when she had left.

Nuisanceposter · Dec 12, 2005

That's right, and there was a red shirt on the washer or dryer early in the morning that mysteriously got moved by afternoon. What was that about?

Cranberry · Dec 12, 2005

BrendaStar said:
I distinctly remember from the facts coming out at that time that:

The bed had been remade

Sheets were in the dryer next to the bedroom. The sheets had been washed. The conclusion being that JBR had wet her bed that night and the sheets had been washed. The housekeeper testified that there were no sheets in the dryer when she had left.

I believe the housekeeper last changed the sheets on the morning of the 23rd.

UKGuy · Dec 12, 2005

Jayelles said:
That's one of the points I am making - that she met her killer before she had the chance to wet the bed.

That she died soon after arriving home also ties in with one possibility in the pineapple timeline (that she ate the pineapple BEFORE going to the Whites and died around 10pm).

Jayelles,

Well the disparity between, her body as discovered in the wine-cellar, the status of her bed and pijamas, and the contents of the ransom note, are so striking as to suggest something is missing from the usual theories.

Lets assume Patsy knew ahead of time, that on the night of the 24th December, JonBenet was going either going to sleep in the spare bed in Burke's room, or even share his bed. She hinted she was aware of this possibility here:

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1997BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm
ST: How about on the, uh, night of the 25th when you and John put her to bed, would it have been unlikely for her to have then moved to another location in the house to have slept, your bed or Burkes room?

PR: Yeah, it would have been unlikely.

ST: Okay.

PR: The reason I cant remember whether they, where she slept on the 24th were, not cause it seemed like they were conspiring about what time they were going to get up in the morning and I cant remember whether they, it seems like there, that she did, they did talk about her sleeping in his room, but I cant remember whether that really happened or not, but I remember they were conspiring about what time to get up and . . .

Patsy also underlines how aware she was to the possibility of JonBenet bedwetting, she cites this as a reason for disallowing her to sleep in Burke's room:

ST: And if, on occasion, JonBenet would go sleep in Burkes room would she get into the other bed.

PR: Shed be in, yeah.

ST: Okay. Um, what would cause that? That she got scared at night or . . .

PR: No, just, I mean, that happened very seldom and uh, I think, oh, I think one time when I reading to Burke and, she and Burke in Burkes room and she feel asleep in that bed so I just let her sleep there or something, but I didnt, you know, usually Id get her back in her bed cause she would, occasionally wet the bed and her bed had a plastic wrap on it and that one didnt so I . . .

ST: Move her to the other bed

In essence Patsy admits that in the past JonBenet has slept in Burke's room, she just had a memory relapse for the 24th and 25th regarding many details relating to JonBenet's homicide.

So if JonBenet slept in Burke's room on the 24th, then her bed sheets will be clean and dry for the 25th. Linda Hoffmann-Pugh stated the sheets were not the same ones she had placed on the bed on the 23rd, so its safe to assume JonBenet wet the bed on the night of the 23rd.

So its possible that Patsy washed the sheets on either the 24th or 25th, not realizing this might play a big role in an upcoming homicide.

Now using Jayelle's strict reasoning, since JonBenet's white longjohns and underwear were urine stained, then JonBenet had not emptied her bladder prior to becoming deceased.
This implies that JonBenet met her killer before she had the chance to wet the bed!

The ransom note suggests JonBenet was abducted from her bed, she did not answer the front door to her abductor, her parents state she was laid sleeping to bed, but her bed does not appear to have been slept in, her pink pijamas worn on the night of the 24th, remain under her pillow. Now if the bedding had been changed who would put her pink pijamas back there, why not wash them along with bedding?

.

Zman · Dec 12, 2005

UKGuy said:
So if JonBenet slept in Burke's room on the 24th, then her bed sheets will be clean and dry for the 25th. Linda Hoffmann-Pugh stated the sheets were not the same ones she had placed on the bed on the 23rd, so its safe to assume JonBenet wet the bed on the night of the 23rd.

So its possible that Patsy washed the sheets on either the 24th or 25th, not realizing this might play a big role in an upcoming homicide.

Now using Jayelle's strict reasoning, since JonBenet's white longjohns and underwear were urine stained, then JonBenet had not emptied her bladder prior to becoming deceased.
This implies that JonBenet met her killer before she had the chance to wet the bed!

The ransom note suggests JonBenet was abducted from her bed, she did not answer the front door to her abductor, her parents state she was laid sleeping to bed, but her bed does not appear to have been slept in, her pink pijamas worn on the night of the 24th, remain under her pillow. Now if the bedding had been changed who would put her pink pijamas back there, why not wash them along with bedding?

.

Just because she may of not slept in her room doesn't mean she was not in it at all. Maybe she through them on her bed on the morning of the 25th when she got changed to play.

trixie · Dec 12, 2005

UKGuy said:
Jayelles,

Well the disparity between, her body as discovered in the wine-cellar, the status of her bed and pijamas, and the contents of the ransom note, are so striking as to suggest something is missing from the usual theories.

Lets assume Patsy knew ahead of time, that on the night of the 24th December, JonBenet was going either going to sleep in the spare bed in Burke's room, or even share his bed. She hinted she was aware of this possibility here:

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1997BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm
ST: How about on the, uh, night of the 25th when you and John put her to bed, would it have been unlikely for her to have then moved to another location in the house to have slept, your bed or Burkes room?

PR: Yeah, it would have been unlikely.

ST: Okay.

PR: The reason I cant remember whether they, where she slept on the 24th were, not cause it seemed like they were conspiring about what time they were going to get up in the morning and I cant remember whether they, it seems like there, that she did, they did talk about her sleeping in his room, but I cant remember whether that really happened or not, but I remember they were conspiring about what time to get up and . . .

Patsy also underlines how aware she was to the possibility of JonBenet bedwetting, she cites this as a reason for disallowing her to sleep in Burke's room:

ST: And if, on occasion, JonBenet would go sleep in Burkes room would she get into the other bed.

PR: Shed be in, yeah.

ST: Okay. Um, what would cause that? That she got scared at night or . . .

PR: No, just, I mean, that happened very seldom and uh, I think, oh, I think one time when I reading to Burke and, she and Burke in Burkes room and she feel asleep in that bed so I just let her sleep there or something, but I didnt, you know, usually Id get her back in her bed cause she would, occasionally wet the bed and her bed had a plastic wrap on it and that one didnt so I . . .

ST: Move her to the other bed

In essence Patsy admits that in the past JonBenet has slept in Burke's room, she just had a memory relapse for the 24th and 25th regarding many details relating to JonBenet's homicide.

So if JonBenet slept in Burke's room on the 24th, then her bed sheets will be clean and dry for the 25th. Linda Hoffmann-Pugh stated the sheets were not the same ones she had placed on the bed on the 23rd, so its safe to assume JonBenet wet the bed on the night of the 23rd.

So its possible that Patsy washed the sheets on either the 24th or 25th, not realizing this might play a big role in an upcoming homicide.

Now using Jayelle's strict reasoning, since JonBenet's white longjohns and underwear were urine stained, then JonBenet had not emptied her bladder prior to becoming deceased.
This implies that JonBenet met her killer before she had the chance to wet the bed!

The ransom note suggests JonBenet was abducted from her bed, she did not answer the front door to her abductor, her parents state she was laid sleeping to bed, but her bed does not appear to have been slept in, her pink pijamas worn on the night of the 24th, remain under her pillow. Now if the bedding had been changed who would put her pink pijamas back there, why not wash them along with bedding?

.

I think it says somewhere in the Bonita Papers that Jonbenet did indeed spend the night in Burkes room on the 24th. Trouble is, I can't determine how accurate the Bonita Papers really are. However that is the only other place I've heard this idea. Patsy's use of the word "conspiring" really bothers me for some reason. I don't think I've ever used that word concerning little kids. It's seems like such a grown up word with a grown up meaning. I can't put my finger on what about it bothers me so much other than it sounds to me like some similar words and phrases used in the ransom note.

Cranberry · Dec 12, 2005

Zman said:
Just because she may of not slept in her room doesn't mean she was not in it at all. Maybe she through them on her bed on the morning of the 25th when she got changed to play.

The disparity is JR & PR said they tucked her in her bed on the night of the 25th.

trixie · Dec 12, 2005

Cranberry said:
IMO the bed wasn't slept in, so I don't think she wet the bed. The pink jammie top was under the pillow where it was left Christmas morning, the bed looked undisturbed, probably as left prior to leaving for the party. IMO the white blanket with the barbie nightgown clinging to it came from the cellar dryer.

Finally! Someone who agrees with me! I've been saying since I saw that picture that JB never made it to that bed that night. It's just so obvious to me. And knowing about the pineapple seals the deal. IMO the Ramseys had to "put" her as sound asleep from the car to the bed because it's CYA for that time frame. Somewhere on another thread someone said Jonbenet's coat was identified by Patsy in the back seat of the car. What happened to the story of John laying her on the bed and taking off her coat and then Patsy coming in to take over? It's all bull, IMO.

Cranberry · Dec 12, 2005

trixie said:
Finally! Someone who agrees with me! I've been saying since I saw that picture that JB never made it to that bed that night. It's just so obvious to me. And knowing about the pineapple seals the deal. IMO the Ramseys had to "put" her as sound asleep from the car to the bed because it's CYA for that time frame. Somewhere on another thread someone said Jonbenet's coat was identified by Patsy in the back seat of the car. What happened to the story of John laying her on the bed and taking off her coat and then Patsy coming in to take over? It's all bull, IMO.

Yes, JR stated he took off JBR's coat and shoes and JBR's coat was in the car and she had on boots with animal fur.

trixie · Dec 12, 2005

I honestly don't know how these people are still walking around amongst us. I don't hate them like some others do, but it bothers me that the law that applies to everyone else doesn't seem to apply to them. Like someone else said, if they had been poor, they'd both be in jail right now. Disgusting.

FULTON · Dec 12, 2005

I have always felt that JR put JBR to bed as he said after she had a snack and PR went up to check on her to see if she wet the bed. I beleive she used the mag light as not to wake her up if everything was ok. When she found the bed wet she tried to wake JBR and a battle of the wills insued. A six year old, very tired and grumpy from a long Christmas day, can be quite a hand full. I felt JBR was dragged out of bed by the collar and struck in a fit of anger or slung into the bathroom by PR to clean her up and possibly striking her head on something in that room. The rest was panic coverup by the R's.

Leve · Dec 12, 2005

I always thought that she never made it to bed that night. I think that the whole she fell asleep in the car and stayed asleep story was a "keep it simple" lie. Its easier to lie when you don't have a whole lot of details.

If she played at the Whites she probably didn't eat much and would have been hungry upon returning home. I think she was wake and eating that night. As far as the urine stained clothing she was found in - usually terror will make you empty your bladder.

I never believed that PR killed her because of a bed wetting incident. I don't think the Mag light was the murder weapon. I think the Ramsey's did it, or at the least participated in the cover-up (and that makes them just as guilty in my mind).

IrishMist · Dec 12, 2005

Ok, as most of you know, I can never make up my mind on this case. But there's something that has been in the back of my mind for the longest time.

YEARS ago, I think it was Oprah, (don't roll your eyes, stay with me here

) who had a show about Mother's that accidently killed their children while in a rage. The only mom I remember had been arguing with her child, and holding a curtain rod during this argument. She got to "that point", ya know, where she was so mad and frustrated that she threw the curtain rod. That rod hit (stabbed?) the child, and the child died!

I'm fuzzy on the details, (geez, can ya tell?) but I do remember they were all "good" moms, had "good" families, and they killed their children in these unexpected but accidental ways.

Part of me wonders if something like that happened that night.
But then I think it's a far stretch to the garotte (sp?) point.

trixie · Dec 12, 2005

I don't know of course but maybe the garrote points to desperation in trying to keep with the ransom notes make believe foreign faction. Maybe the idea of what was to be written in the note was already forming in that persons head and that would make it staging. That garrote is pretty much the one thing I can't wrap my mind around as far as a PDI theory. However, I will say that anyone desperate enough is capable of anything. Patsy Ramsey is no exception. IMO.

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