IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #57

Dear Websleuths Members,

Please DO NOT bring in family members of the victim's and suggest they might have had something to do with the crime. As of right now, there is ZERO evidence to suggest this is the case.

People, please think about what Abby and Liberty's loved ones are going through right now.

They lost their two angels to murder and now they read on the Internet people are ripping their lives apart.

Same thing with any random person you happen to bring up. These people do not deserve to have their lives spread out and accusations made against them based on a theory with nothing to back it up.

I know it's frustrating when you go on other sites and they are talking about EVERYTHING but we just do not work that way on Websleuths.

You are anonymous behind your computer screen. Doesn't hurt you if you post something that's not true about a grieving family member. You step away from your computer and all is well. Meanwhile, your words are like burning hot knives in people's hearts.

Please take a moment to read our ruleshttp://www.websleuths.com/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

If you have any questions please email websleuthscomments@gmail.com or send a private message.

Ask yourself the following; Would you stand face to face with the person you are accusing, tell them your theory and tell them your real name?

Even with our tight and well thought out rules Websleuths is able to do amazing sleuthing.

Thank you for caring about Abby and Liberty.

Tricia Griffith
Owner/Websleuths.com

PS. Thank you KayElJay for letting me post in your opening post.

MISSING: Two 13-year-old girls dropped off to go walking at Carroll County trail

Carroll County Sheriff Toby Leazenby said Abigail Williams and Liberty German were last seen around 1 p.m. when they were dropped off to go hiking at High Bridge, just east of Delphi.

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Police ID bodies of Indiana girls

Two bodies found along a northern Indiana stream are those of two teenage girls who went missing Mondayand their deaths are being investigated as homicides, authorities said on Wednesday.

State Police Sgt. Kim Riley said autopsies performed Wednesday determined that the bodies are those of Liberty German, 14, and Abigail Williams, 13, both of Delphi.

Their bodies were found Tuesday afternoon along Deer Creek near Delphi, about 60 miles northwest of Indianapolis. Police said the girls’ bodies were about three-quarters of a mile from an abandoned railroad bridge where they were dropped off Monday to go hiking.

ISP page dedicated to the investigation (includes audio of suspect)

Pictures of Abby and Libby
Link to post with all Threads #1-98(Courtesy of margarita25)

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*Media Maps & Timelines*
IMAGE Discussion Thread
Scanner Thread
Rules Etiquette & Information

Case map by skibaboo updated with the latest grayhuze crime flow video

Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at (800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff’s Department at (765) 564-2413.

Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

video of press conference of 02/22/17: https://www.facebook.com/NewsCenter1...4728963476130/

Audio loop http://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_male_voice_loop.mp3

SGT. KIM RILEY, INDIANA STATE POLICE (via telephone) with CNN re: three posts in the image on the bridge

RILEY: We have looked at it. We`ve blown it up. As a matter of fact, that was done right after we got the picture -- we had access to the picture. And if you look at the far end of the tracks, it looks like there`s two people actually standing there. But if you blow the picture up, you`ll notice that there`s actually three poles there to keep cars from being -- trying to drive across the bridge. So that`s the marks that you see at the end of the tracks.

Teen used cell phone to capture chilling audio of her killer: Police

ADMIN NOTE: Do NOT post photos of random individuals in a side by side fashion to compare with unidentified suspect. You may be sleuthing someone ten ways to Sunday but do NOT post about it here. Until there is a named suspect to sleuth it is against TOS.

[ETA = in light of the recent search warrant executed at the property and residence of RL the decision has been made to allow limited sleuthing of RL. You may sleuth what is public record, including past criminal or legal history. You may discuss whether or not you feel his voice or appearance match the evidence shared by LE. You may NOT sleuth his family members, friends, acquaintances, etc. Please keep it on the rails.]

If you feel you have a tip by all means phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.

Posts that are outside the rules are subject to removal without warning or explanation. Members who continue to post against the rules are subject to a loss of posting privileges.

Please continue discussing while being mindful of the rules which can always be found linked in my signature.

ADMIN NOTE: Because so many members were brand new, we, the owner and staff, have been very patient with you. We thought you deserved some time to learn the ropes. Well, you've had almost two weeks to figure out how we roll here. If you haven't bothered to read the Rules, especially Etiquette and Information, then shame on ya.

Going forward, we will issue Time Outs of 24 hours or longer. No excuses, no questions asked. Consider this a fair warning.

Bessie
WS ADMINISTRATOR

ATTENTION EVERYONE:

With the latest search warrant being served at the home of property owner Ron Logan we have decided to open up Ron Logan to sleuthing with these rules:

*Use his initials only (R.L.) or call him the land owner.

*This does not mean you can sleuth his family or neighbors.

*In the event you do discover something about someone else who happens to be connected to R.L. and you think
it is related to the case you must check with us before you post it.

* R.L HAS NOT BEEN NAMED A PERSON OF INTEREST. Please do not accuse him of the crime.

If you have any questions alert on any post and send us your question. Or you can send a private message to one of the mods.

To reiterate, You can now sleuth the land owner R.L. but ONLY R.L. No accusing R.L. or anyone of being the killer.

Thank you,
Tricia

carbuff said:

This just in from Alexis McAdams:

BREAKING: ISP,FBI & Carrol Co. Sheriffs served search warrant at home of Ron Logan- owner of the property where the girls bodies were found

[video=twitter;842769551901282304]https://twitter.com/AlexisMcAdamsTV/status/842769551901282304[/video]

Click to expand...

sumzero said:

Well, it remains unclear to me. I can see no difference between what we're allowed to do, even though LE has repeatedly said RL is not a suspect in the murders, and what we would be allowed to do if, in fact, LE had said RL is a suspect in the murders. In both cases, we'd have to say we don't know for sure and, therefore, it'd only be an opinion. I guess I have a hard time seeing any real limits to the sleuthing. Does that make sense?

Click to expand...

Let me try and clear this up for you.


Always remember hardly anything on Websleuths is Black and White. Websleuths has lots of gray areas.


Rarely do police ever say someone is a suspect unless it is obvious like Bridge Guy.


What we have to do in certain cases is use our common sense.


Why did the police get a search warrant for RL the land owner where Abby and Libby's bodies were found?


Why did the police violate his parole? If someone could find a link verifying this. I will retract if I am incorrect.


Why was RL given over three years in prison for driving convictions?

Didn't the police say he was not cooperating? You have to wonder if there is a deal to be made with RL if he cooperates.


Is there anyone else the police are looking into that has anything close to the connection to the case like RL other than BG?


To get a search warrant for his house police needed probable cause.


As the owner of Websleuths, it is up to me to make these decisions about who can be discussed and who can't. I do so by following the Websleuths guidelines along with discussing among the mods and using common sense.


Here is another good example. The murder of Dr. Teresa Sievers.


Her husband Mark wasn't ever pointed out as a suspect until shortly before he was arrested. However, his behavior made it obvious he was hiding something. This is why early on Websleuths allowed Mark Sievers to be discussed as a suspect. Same with his friend Wayne.


We take each case on its merits.


In this case, because the police had probable cause for a search warrant members can sleuth RL ONLY. Not his family, not his friends. Also, we have stated over and over no one is saying he is guilty. If someone calls him a murderer please alert and we will remove.


So when a member feels like a guy that used to date Abby or Libby's mom kind of looks like BG and wants to sleuth him we say absolutely not.


RL owned the land the bodies were found on. We did not allow sleuthing him at this point at all. It was only when the police served the search warrant did we allow members to sleuth.


Police have said he is not a suspect. They said this before, during, and after the search warrant of RL's home.


You have to use common sense and go by what police have done in the past to make these decisions.


One more thing, we only allow the initials of RL. Why? So when someone Googles his name Websleuths won't come up.


However, you go to all the other sites on the Internet, and they are tearing RL apart, using his real name and sleuthing God knows what about his past.


At Websleuths we do our best to balance between letting you discuss and being sensitive to people's situations.


You will not find any other forum on the Internet that works harder than we do to be as fair as possible.


Remember, if it too much for you and you feel it's wrong no one is forcing you to stay.


Thank you,
Tricia

Confusion said:

He's taller because I resized the photo when I worked on it, and didn't get it back down to the exact size when I was done. Part of the "skinnier" is from removing the 'aura' around him (from movement). I think I may have accidentally taken a bit of his right elbow, but I didn't slim him down. I think most of the difference is just perception, but I've been wrong before.

MOO

Click to expand...

ab01 said:

Thanks for clearifying, I think some of the things people are seeing maybe do to resizing. It can bee tricky to resize and keep proportioning the same. Appreciate all your efforts....:cheers:

Click to expand...

Admin Note

Jumping off of these posts -
I meant to come back and post last night after closing the thread but I fell asleep. :blushing:

Over the weekend I asked Tricia specifically about the photos that have been enhanced, altered to remove the background, zoomed in for focus, etc.... She advised that the photos posted are fine for sleuthing purposes. (Nothing new. This has been permitted in many threads.) Here's the deal - it's all about perception. Give each photo as much weight as you see fit, disregard the ones you doubt the depict differently than intended. What is not permitted is an ongoing back & forth, particularly insinuating the people working on the photos have intentionally altered the images to mislead others. Either you find them helpful, or you don't. If you don't, disregard and scroll and roll on past. It's that simple.

Also, any mention of posters who are on time out is strictly prohibited. I easily could have TO'd a few people last night but chose not to because for the most part, this thread was very pleasant and civil until late afternoon. We are very grateful for the civility and change in tone. However, be advised any further references to those posters not currently here will result in a loss a posting privileges for the those choosing to violate that rule.

*please bump as needed*

Ember123 said:

I distinctly recall LE saying that At First They Didn't Know If They Were Looking At A Crime Scene when they found girls.
I've wondered-How could that BE ??

Click to expand...

The words "crime scene" and "foul play" were used in the first press conference.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...-in-carroll-county-official-says-its-not-good

Jabarn said:

That is one aspect of the case I have never felt there has been a satisfactory explanation. IF the phone was pinging about, it would mean to me it was moving about. I hope there are some techies who know how cell phone pings work to clarify how the phone could be pinging around Delphi, yet still be located in the crime scene (if it was). This is so huge.

Click to expand...

.

Hopefully I can add some clarity to this conversation about the phones. There is a phone thread in the Making a Murderer case here on WS, that has a lot of information on phone pings.

Towers use triangulation. That is if the phone is in the NE quadrant it will ping off the tower as 1 and if it is in the SE to SW quadrant, it will ping off the tower as 2, and likewise if in the NW to N, it will ping off the tower as 3. The phone companies can tell which phones are pinging off the tower and in which quadrant. That narrows down the location of the phone to some extent.

The trouble is most towers reach a distance of between 20 - 30 miles (30 miles or more in rural areas). So, if someone holding a cell phone moves from quadrant 1 to quadrant 3, the tower will record that. Likewise, another tower might pick up the cell phone signal stronger than the first. Thus, the pinging off a different tower. The phone can be in the same location, but the tree cover maybe different, thus the phone will use the signal from the strongest tower. If you have service on your phone, your phone is always searching for a tower. At least that is my understand of the older phones.

Now comes the newer phones (smartphones or LTE phones) and I don't know much about them other than the towers can give coordinates I believe down to a few blocks. They use a different technology. Again, the smartphones are always searching for the tower with the strongest signal. The only time the phone is not searching for a tower, is when it is turned off.

With that said, LE can get the information from the phone companies. I'm not sure how quickly and if they need a subpoena or not. So, IMHO I believe it was a service like find my IPhone or something of that nature. I'm not familiar with how that service works, so sorry can't help with that either.

Please bump this periodically. Thanks :heartbeat:

The Blue Moose is adding one of Libby's favorite sayings to their new mobile van and will be at the Celebration of Life event, story below

"...Libby's favorite saying was "There is always time for Ice Cream"

"The family came across her time capsule that she had written. It said that she had gotten a job at The Blue Moose and it was fun at first but the smell of pretzels all day starts to stink after awhile. We so wish this young lady would have had the opportunity to work at The Blue Moose. We would have loved to had her as part of our team.

...we are going Mobile with The Moose...we feel with what we been told by Libby's family and how much she loved The Moose it is only right to add her saying to The Moose Mobile and remember the girls on it as well. They will be with us wherever we go."


https://www.facebook.com/bluemooseyo...25768330874921

Abby and Libby Celebration of Life May 13th

https://www.facebook.com/events/1130937567033151/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/15/indiana-teens-killer-may-have-met-police-prosecutors-say.html

*Investigators say they’ve possibly met the killer or killers, or may have the clue that will wrap up the case. They just don’t know it yet.

“I think there’s an excellent chance that in these tips, somebody has named the right person,” said Ives of the more than 13,000 submissions that have come in to investigators. “When you ask me, ‘Is it possible some police officer has talked to him?’ I think it’s extremely likely that’s happened.

“I think that’s possible, yes.”

This is what leads me to think they've met or interviewed by at some point imo always

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Lilowlet said:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/15/indiana-teens-killer-may-have-met-police-prosecutors-say.html

*Investigators say they’ve possibly met the killer or killers, or may have the clue that will wrap up the case. They just don’t know it yet.

“I think there’s an excellent chance that in these tips, somebody has named the right person,” said Ives of the more than 13,000 submissions that have come in to investigators. “When you ask me, ‘Is it possible some police officer has talked to him?’ I think it’s extremely likely that’s happened.

“I think that’s possible, yes.”

This is what leads me to think they've met or interviewed by at some point imo always

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

About how long do you think it would take to do voice analysis of the poi they have interviewed against to match the audio recording and how accurate would that be? is that done at Quantico , are they even doing this? Would they only single out a couple of possibilities that they think might be a match or how does this work? And I'm just speculating. Im not trying to suggest that I think they've actually done this , just curious and havent had my coffee yet so I'm sure this isn't coming across right

Ember123 wrote:
I distinctly recall LE saying that At First They Didn't Know If They Were Looking At A Crime Scene when they found girls.
I've wondered-How could that BE ??

I can't quote the OP because the old thread is closed, so I've pasted the post I want to quote above. Hope that's ok.

What's the original quote? I'd love a link because if they were saying they didn't know they were looking at a crime scene period that's very different than them saying they didn't know what they were looking at, AT the crime scene.

At any rate, I think LE may have made this statement for a number of reasons. Just my ongoing thoughts here, maybe someone can add to this list of possibilities.

It's possible that LE didn't know what they were seeing at the crime scene at first because:
A. The bodies were covered
B. It looked to be a double suicide
C. It looked to be an accident
D. Bodies were posed in an alarming way
E. Suspect(s) left some sort of message

I'm sure the list goes on. My own sense is that it was A, B, or C when LE initially got to the crime scene, but that they then gathered more facts in the case (injuries, possible COD, cell phone evidence etc.) that put them on the right track pretty quickly.

JMO


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eastcoasterinco said:

Ember123 wrote:
I distinctly recall LE saying that At First They Didn't Know If They Were Looking At A Crime Scene when they found girls.
I've wondered-How could that BE ??

I can't quote the OP because the old thread is closed, so I've pasted the post I want to quote above. Hope that's ok.

What's the original quote? I'd love a link because if they were saying they didn't know they were looking at a crime scene period that's very different than them saying they didn't know what they were looking at, AT the crime scene.

At any rate, I think LE may have made this statement for a number of reasons. Just my ongoing thoughts here, maybe someone can add to this list of possibilities.

It's possible that LE didn't know what they were seeing at the crime scene at first because:
A. The bodies were covered
B. It looked to be a double suicide
C. It looked to be an accident
D. Bodies were posed in an alarming way
E. Suspect(s) left some sort of message

I'm sure the list goes on. My own sense is that it was A, B, or C when LE initially got to the crime scene, but that they then gathered more facts in the case (injuries, possible COD, cell phone evidence etc.) that put them on the right track pretty quickly.

JMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

My early thoughts about this were maybe the girls were wet/mud covered like they had drowned or been in the creek. The others you list are possible too of course. What is the status re. DNA ? Is it known yet if any was found at the scene?

The info I've read regarding voice matching seems inconsistent. The tech seems to be regarde by some as extremely accurate, while others claim it is inconclusive. I haven't been able to find anything on it's admissibility as evidence, but I would suspect that it is at least a tool, like the polygraph, that LE would use in this situation, and it seems to be available as a software app, so I don't see the need of sending it off to Quantico or The Farm. I'm in the camp of leaning strongly toward LE having a good idea who this guy is, but needing more solid evidence. Without strong physical evidence, an eyewitness, or a confession, it's impossible to make a case. I also don't believe there was much(if any) evidence left at the scene by BG. Thus no arrest yet.

BoggLed in Ohio said:

About how long do you think it would take to do voice analysis of the poi they have interviewed against to match the audio recording and how accurate would that be? is that done at Quantico , are they even doing this? Would they only single out a couple of possibilities that they think might be a match or how does this work? And I'm just speculating. Im not trying to suggest that I think they've actually done this , just curious and havent had my coffee yet so I'm sure this isn't coming across right

Click to expand...

At the 2/14 presser, before the bodies had even been positively identified, LE said they were treating the case as a double homicide. That info is in the media thread.
Tuesday, Feb. 14, 2017

-Tuesday morning: The search resumes with teams of volunteers and police officers. The effort also includes K-9 units and dive teams.

-Noon: Searchers find two bodies about a half-mile away from the bridge.

-2 p.m. During a news conference, authorities announce the discovery of the bodies but give no indication of their identities. They say for the first time that “foul play” is suspected in connection with the case.

-4 p.m. Delphi Community Schools Superintendent Gregory Briles releases a statement saying that the bodies found in the afternoon are those of two “missing Delphi Community Middle School students” despite no confirmation from police.

Briles says grief counselors will be made available to students and staff. Briles later says school security will be stepped up. All after school activities at Delphi Community Middle School are canceled for the remainder of the week.

-7 p.m. The Delphi United Methodist Church opens for a vigil.

eastcoasterinco said:

Ember123 wrote:
I distinctly recall LE saying that At First They Didn't Know If They Were Looking At A Crime Scene when they found girls.
I've wondered-How could that BE ??

I can't quote the OP because the old thread is closed, so I've pasted the post I want to quote above. Hope that's ok.

What's the original quote? I'd love a link because if they were saying they didn't know they were looking at a crime scene period that's very different than them saying they didn't know what they were looking at, AT the crime scene.

At any rate, I think LE may have made this statement for a number of reasons. Just my ongoing thoughts here, maybe someone can add to this list of possibilities.

It's possible that LE didn't know what they were seeing at the crime scene at first because:
A. The bodies were covered
B. It looked to be a double suicide
C. It looked to be an accident
D. Bodies were posed in an alarming way
E. Suspect(s) left some sort of message

I'm sure the list goes on. My own sense is that it was A, B, or C when LE initially got to the crime scene, but that they then gathered more facts in the case (injuries, possible COD, cell phone evidence etc.) that put them on the right track pretty quickly.

JMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

eastcoasterinco said:

Ember123 wrote:
I distinctly recall LE saying that At First They Didn't Know If They Were Looking At A Crime Scene when they found girls.
I've wondered-How could that BE ??

I can't quote the OP because the old thread is closed, so I've pasted the post I want to quote above. Hope that's ok.

What's the original quote? I'd love a link because if they were saying they didn't know they were looking at a crime scene period that's very different than them saying they didn't know what they were looking at, AT the crime scene.

At any rate, I think LE may have made this statement for a number of reasons. Just my ongoing thoughts here, maybe someone can add to this list of possibilities.

It's possible that LE didn't know what they were seeing at the crime scene at first because:
A. The bodies were covered
B. It looked to be a double suicide
C. It looked to be an accident
D. Bodies were posed in an alarming way
E. Suspect(s) left some sort of message

I'm sure the list goes on. My own sense is that it was A, B, or C when LE initially got to the crime scene, but that they then gathered more facts in the case (injuries, possible COD, cell phone evidence etc.) that put them on the right track pretty quickly.

JMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

If that is what they said; possibly the girls were posed as if they were just sleeping. That would be confusing, but some SKs do pose victims like that from what I have read. I would think the LE in that area had little or no experience with this type of crime scene so that would be puzzling to them when they were first found. To me a SK that did that would be more un-nerving than finding someone that was obviously murdered. You would know you were dealing with a very creepy suspect.

Posting the actual link for video.

This is most helpful to keep facts straight.

We are investigating this as a crime scene. We suspect foul play.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4224810/Two-bodies-search-missing-13-year-old-girls.html

AmateurAnalyst73 said:

The info I've read regarding voice matching seems inconsistent. The tech seems to be regarde by some as extremely accurate, while others claim it is inconclusive. I haven't been able to find anything on it's admissibility as evidence, but I would suspect that it is at least a tool, like the polygraph, that LE would use in this situation, and it seems to be available as a software app, so I don't see the need of sending it off to Quantico or The Farm. I'm in the camp of leaning strongly toward LE having a good idea who this guy is, but needing more solid evidence. Without strong physical evidence, an eyewitness, or a confession, it's impossible to make a case. I also don't believe there was much(if any) evidence left at the scene by BG. Thus no arrest yet.

Click to expand...

BBM here are some good articles I found on voice analysis. I had no idea.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/voice-analysis-should-be-used-with-caution-in-court/

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/0...pert-admits-this-is-not-really-good-evidence/

https://phys.org/news/2016-01-voice-recognition-technology-masked-jihadi.html



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Brighty said:

If that is what they said; possibly the girls were posed as if they were just sleeping. That would be confusing, but some SKs do pose victims like that from what I have read. I would think the LE in that area had little or no experience with this type of crime scene so that would be puzzling to them when they were first found. To me a SK that did that would be more un-nerving than finding someone that was obviously murdered. You would know you were dealing with a very creepy suspect.

Click to expand...

Having some say the scene was so nightmarish that officers were brought to their knees and others say they didn't even know it was a crime scene is quite contradictory! I wonder what the truth is.