TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

Tricia

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He broke his stepsons skull in 2012.... WHY wasn't it a Dishonorable? Talk about beyond bad conduct.....

https://nyti.ms/2hKKqrT

ETA: https://legaldictionary.net/dishonorable-discharge/

This has a summary of the types of discharges. I posted it in Thread 1. The distinction here is that you can still buy a weapon with a bad conduct discharge and that also allowed him to get a permit as a Security Guard. Now I know why I couldn't find the record of his court martial... how did they think they were going to hide what he did?


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He broke his stepsons skull in 2012.... WHY wasn't it a Dishonorable? Talk about beyond bad conduct.....

https://nyti.ms/2hKKqrT
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I don't know.

Likewise, it is not clear whether he was given an administrative conviction or a criminal conviction. Though the length of his sentence (one year) implies criminal, administrative punishments can also be up to a year:

Though breaking a child's skull is not a minor offense, perhaps other elements made a criminal conviction difficult?

3.The commander may dispose of the offense with nonjudicial punishment. Article 15, UCMJ, is a means of handling minor offenses requiring immediate corrective action. A minor offense is one for which the maximum sentence imposable at a court-martial would not include a dishonorable discharge or confinement in excess of one year.
 
He broke his stepsons skull in 2012.... WHY wasn't it a Dishonorable? Talk about beyond bad conduct.....

https://nyti.ms/2hKKqrT


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My dad called me last night.
He was in the Army and he is mad!
He says the military has "gone soft" and they are a bunch of cowards for not dishonorably discharging him.
He also said he hopes everyone involved in that process is sweating in their boots!

MOO

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I don't know.

Likewise, it is not clear whether he was given an administrative conviction or a criminal conviction. Though the length of his sentence (one year) implies criminal, administrative punishments can also be up to a year:

Though breaking a child's skull is not a minor offense, perhaps other elements made a criminal conviction difficult?

3.The commander may dispose of the offense with nonjudicial punishment. Article 15, UCMJ, is a means of handling minor offenses requiring immediate corrective action. A minor offense is one for which the maximum sentence imposable at a court-martial would not include a dishonorable discharge or confinement in excess of one year.

Considering he admittedly intentionally assaulted his wife and infant step-child I am very surprised that there wasn't a felony charge. Since they lived on base it was under the jurisdiction of the Security Forces (Air Force Police); which explains why there weren't civilian criminal charges as well.


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My dad called me last night.
He was in the Army and he is mad!
He says the military has "gone soft" and they are a bunch of cowards for not dishonorably discharging him.
He also said he hopes everyone involved in that process is sweating in their boots!

MOO

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I agree with him 100%. I KNEW there was a reason I couldn't find the record. They disabled that quick, fast and in a hurry.



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That domestic violence conviction kept him from obtaining concealed carry permit in the state of TX permanently the way I read it.

Below is the list:

The handgun licensing law sets out the eligibility criteria that must be met. For example, an applicant must be eligible to purchase a handgun under the State and Federal laws (including an age restriction of 21), however an exception is granted to active members of the military who are age 18 and over. Additionally, a number of factors may make a person ineligible (temporarily or permanently) to obtain a license, including:

felony convictions (permanent) and Class A or B misdemeanors (5 years, permanent in cases of domestic violence), including charges that resulted in probation or deferred adjudication;
pending criminal charges (indefinite until resolved);

chemical or alcohol dependency (defined as 2 convictions for substance-related offenses in a 10-year period; 10-year ban from the date of the first conviction);

certain types of psychological diagnoses (indefinite until the condition is testified by a medical professional as being in remission);

protective or restraining orders (indefinite until rescinded); or

defaults on taxes, student loans, child support and/or other governmental fees (indefinite until resolved).[6]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Texas
 
Considering he admittedly intentionally assaulted his wife and infant step-child I am very surprised that there wasn't a felony charge. Since they lived on base it was under the jurisdiction of the Security Forces (Air Force Police); which explains why there weren't civilian criminal charges as well.

There may have been a formal felony charge and conviction, but it is not clear.

I have a sneaking suspicion that he was handled administratively. Thus, while he admitted to the facts for assault, he could have been given an administrative, non judicial finding of guilt, and a non judicial punishment.

This might explain why he passed the background checks as an administrative military conviction for assault may still allow someone to legally purchase weapons. Military criminal convictions, however, bar such a person.
 
I don't know.

Likewise, it is not clear whether he was given an administrative conviction or a criminal conviction. Though the length of his sentence (one year) implies criminal, administrative punishments can also be up to a year:

Though breaking a child's skull is not a minor offense, perhaps other elements made a criminal conviction difficult?

3.The commander may dispose of the offense with nonjudicial punishment. Article 15, UCMJ, is a means of handling minor offenses requiring immediate corrective action. A minor offense is one for which the maximum sentence imposable at a court-martial would not include a dishonorable discharge or confinement in excess of one year.

I forgot to add that this wasn't an Article 15.; those are usually at the company level and there can be extra duty. A field grade Article 15 is usually a precursor to a court martial however. It usually involves reduction in rank and pay and if the investigating officer finds cause for a summary court martial it escalates from there. He was convicted by court martial and under confinement for a year. After he served his sentence he was then discharged.


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He broke his stepsons skull in 2012.... WHY wasn't it a Dishonorable? Talk about beyond bad conduct.....

https://nyti.ms/2hKKqrT

ETA: https://legaldictionary.net/dishonorable-discharge/

This has a summary of the types of discharges. I posted it in Thread 1. The distinction here is that you can still buy a weapon with a bad conduct discharge and that also allowed him to get a permit as a Security Guard. Now I know why I couldn't find the record of his court martial... how did they think they were going to hide what he did?


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From my earlier link here are the definitions used on legaldictionary.net:

"Bad Conduct Discharge
A Bad Conduct Discharge (“BCD”) can only be levied on a service member who is court-martialed for bad conduct. In general, an individual convicted by court martial is given a BCD as further punishment, following a sentence in military prison. In this case, the veteran is not eligible for any VA benefits. Bad Conduct Discharge is a punitive discharge.

Dishonorable Discharge
A military service member who is court-martialed for actions determined to be reprehensible may be given a Dishonorable Discharge. In fact, the only way such a discharge can be levied is by general court martial, during which it may be included as part of the sentence. An individual who is dishonorably discharged is not eligible for any VA benefits, and may find it difficult to gain employment in the civilian sector. A Dishonorable Discharge is a punitive discharge."


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from the last thread -
rsd1200 wrote:
"Not being snarky, at all, but I don't think that I could ever heal from losing my child, then combined with the fact that he had murdered 27 people, no, I'd never heal."

I agree totally. Other parents of mass murderers have stated they'd give their lives in a moment if it could bring back the deceased. It does make me wonder if the primary intent of a crime such as this is to mentally and emotionally punish his parents for the rest of their lives. Knowing nothing about them, of course I can't say for sure but just imaging - to be haunted by guilt, what could they have done differently, what went wrong, should've they known, were there signs, etc something no parent could ever truly know the answers to.
 
Ann Stefanek, a spokeswoman for the Air Force, confirmed that Kelly was court-martialed in 2012 on two charges of assaulting his spouse and their child. He was confined for a year, reduced in rank to airman basic E-1 and given a bad conduct discharge in 2014, Stefanek said."
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/te...ooting-n817751

From my earlier link here are the definitions used on legaldictionary.net:

"Bad Conduct Discharge
A Bad Conduct Discharge (“BCD”) can only be levied on a service member who is court-martialed for bad conduct. In general, an individual convicted by court martial is given a BCD as further punishment, following a sentence in military prison. In this case, the veteran is not eligible for any VA benefits. Bad Conduct Discharge is a punitive discharge.

Dishonorable Discharge
A military service member who is court-martialed for actions determined to be reprehensible may be given a Dishonorable Discharge. In fact, the only way such a discharge can be levied is by general court martial, during which it may be included as part of the sentence. An individual who is dishonorably discharged is not eligible for any VA benefits, and may find it difficult to gain employment in the civilian sector. A Dishonorable Discharge is a punitive discharge."
 
My heart is broken. Where will it happen next [emoji174]. Thanks to my WS friends.


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Bringing over this post from the previous thread, and another article about the grandmother’s life. She seemed such a happy lady.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...grandmother-church-shooting-article-1.3615014

Post# 963, http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...nd-Springs-5-Nov-2017&p=13740254#post13740254
Inthedetails:
MIL wasn't in church, but his wife's grandmother was, and she was killed. :(
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...grandmother-church-shooting-article-1.3615014
 
from the last thread -
rsd1200 wrote:
"Not being snarky, at all, but I don't think that I could ever heal from losing my child, then combined with the fact that he had murdered 27 people, no, I'd never heal."

I agree totally. Other parents of mass murderers have stated they'd give their lives in a moment if it could bring back the deceased. It does make me wonder if the primary intent of a crime such as this is to mentally and emotionally punish his parents for the rest of their lives. Knowing nothing about them, of course I can't say for sure but just imaging - to be haunted by guilt, what could they have done differently, what went wrong, should've they known, were there signs, etc something no parent could ever truly know the answers to.

I definitely think part of the motivation is to hurt or punish or get the attention of the parents/family.

The surviving family members of a mass murderer will never be the same again, and the pain will always be there...but there is the possibility of healing, which the murderer denied himself.

jmo
 
Those who are discharged from the Air Force based on “bad conduct” are not barred from legally purchasing weapons, according to the New York Daily News.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/0...edly-fractured-stepsons-skull-on-purpose.html

Yep. That is also how he was a permitted Security Guard. The AF dropped the ball on this one. He was convicted under a General Court Martial and should have gotten a Dishonorable. I said yesterday I thought it was interesting that I couldn't find his record and that the Air Force was going to want to distance themselves if possible especially if they could have taken further measures to prevent something else from happening.


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apologies if this has been posted already, still have 23 pages to read!!! From just today.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/...171106&nl=breaking-news&nlid=68626860&ref=cta

As many as 14 children and a pregnant woman lay lifeless. Those dead inside the church ranged from 18 months to 77 years of age, according to law enforcement officials.

this!!

Mr. Kelley contacted his father from his cellphone during the chase to tell him that he had been shot, according to law enforcement. Mr. Kelley told his father that he “didn’t think he was going to make it.” He subsequently shot himself, though officials said they were not yet sure if that shot had caused his death.

The sheriff described a horrific and methodical killing. Mr. Kelley appeared to have begun at the front of the church, having “shot his way in,” and fired his weapon from side to side as he paced through the room.

There was nothing anyone could do until he came out,” Sheriff Tackitt said. The sheriff later declined to give more information about what had happened inside the church.

Mr. Kelley did not have a license to carry, according to investigators who briefed the news media on Monday morning, but he had a private security license “similar to a security guard at a concert,”

Three weapons belonging to Mr. Kelley were recovered during the investigation — a rifle at the church and two handguns in his car.
 
Yep. That is also how he was a permitted Security Guard. The AF dropped the ball on this one. He was convicted under a General Court Martial and should have gotten a Dishonorable. I said yesterday I thought it was interesting that I couldn't find his record and that the Air Force was going to want to distance themselves if possible especially if they could have taken further measures to prevent something else from happening.


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Maybe it was a plea deal.

Also from the article.

“He pled to intentionally doing it.”
 

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