Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #7

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:rose: Rest in peace, Laura :rose:

laura-babcock.jpg


Laura Babcock disappeared from Toronto in 2012. Dellen Millard and Mark Smich are facing first-degree murder charges in her death. (Facebook)

from:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/babcock-trial-day-14-1.4396243
 
Judge lays out manslaughter, murder verdict options for jury at Laura Babcock murder trial
By Adam Carter, CBC News Posted: Dec 08, 2017

Justice Michael Code laid out verdict options for jurors at the Laura Babcock murder trial today, telling them that manslaughter, first-degree murder and second-murder options are all on the table.

Code began his address, which lasted the entire day and will resume on Monday, by telling the jury the case is based on two crucial questions — whether Babcock is actually dead, and whether co-accused Dellen Millard and Mark Smich killed her.

[...]

On Friday, Code said three verdict options are available, even though Millard and Smich both face a first-degree murder charge.

"If you have reasonable doubt as to whether Ms. Babcock is dead, then you would find both accused not guilty. You would proceed no further in your deliberations," Code said.
 
Despite the fact that it's never been mentioned in the courtroom with the jury present, can we assume that most, if not all of the jury members are fully aware that DM and MS are already serving M1 sentences? If there are jurors who don't know, can we also assume that every juror will come out of the 'secret' deliberations knowing at least a few details about the story of Tim Bosma?
 
Reason for MS’ big smile IMO is the ‘success’ of the ‘next level mission’.
They had been planning this for months. The failure of BBQ #1 was a setback. BBQ #2 finally arrives. Top priority. They are working on the trailer to make it mobile. Good thing too cuz that very night, after “talking to that girl if you know what I mean” they had to relocate to the hangar for a power source. Remember the “BBQ is ready for meat”. And so here they are, bones burning and crackling. Reason for celebration in their twisted minds.
Next level mission accomplished. The recording studio promised by DM so close, MS could taste it. I’m a real gangsta, gotta write a rap about this right away. Yeah!
MS was all in from the get go. More than AATF. The smile says it all.
Evidence in totality = M1.
JMO
 
Despite the fact that it's never been mentioned in the courtroom with the jury present, can we assume that most, if not all of the jury members are fully aware that DM and MS are already serving M1 sentences? If there are jurors who don't know, can we also assume that every juror will come out of the 'secret' deliberations knowing at least a few details about the story of Tim Bosma?

They are suppose to have no idea. But I can't really see that happening as the media is pretty prevalent about this story.
 
I don't mean to be difficult here, but I wouldn't be too surprised if one or two jurors struggle with the first finding - i.e. is she dead. Particularly as they aren't supposed to consider TB or WM.

Hopefully the majority of jurors will be able to convince any outliers and the totality of evidence will help as well.

I thought Jill Cameron was wise to focus on LB's "footprint" and how her footprint ceased, it was very convincing, IMO.
 
Despite the fact that it's never been mentioned in the courtroom with the jury present, can we assume that most, if not all of the jury members are fully aware that DM and MS are already serving M1 sentences? If there are jurors who don't know, can we also assume that every juror will come out of the 'secret' deliberations knowing at least a few details about the story of Tim Bosma?

Human nature tells me that they would be curious enough to get some knowledge of the accused, but they would be expected to set their knowledge aside and judge this case on the merits of the evidence presented to them. Compared to many trials, these two accused have left a strong trail of evidence.
 
Reason for MS’ big smile IMO is the ‘success’ of the ‘next level mission’.
They had been planning this for months. The failure of BBQ #1 was a setback. BBQ #2 finally arrives. Top priority. They are working on the trailer to make it mobile. Good thing too cuz that very night, after “talking to that girl if you know what I mean” they had to relocate to the hangar for a power source. Remember the “BBQ is ready for meat”. And so here they are, bones burning and crackling. Reason for celebration in their twisted minds.
Next level mission accomplished. The recording studio promised by DM so close, MS could taste it. I’m a real gangsta, gotta write a rap about this right away. Yeah!
MS was all in from the get go. More than AATF. The smile says it all.
Evidence in totality = M1.
JMO

I think the jury is going to think it through on MS for a long time. DM is no doubt guilty. MS is guilty as well, but how much? Did he plan and help her murder or did he just clean it up. The crux of the issue IMO is figuring out if MS knew she going to be killed.
 
Sorry I came in so late to the discussion last night and my comments ended up totally in left field with what was being discussed.

Went to the movie Wonder last night. It was so good! I mention it because of 2 reasons, One because the little blonde girl reminded me of LB in her pics and Two, some of the dynamics people run into in life seemed to be brought into the movie with some characters just on the cusp of life and where they might intersect with the right or wrong people. If you get the chance see it. :) bring a kleenex/tissue.

I think M1 is good for MS. The thing I struggle with is MM being there for it. How big or separated was this house? I think she was gone from the house for a bit or she was involved some. (although I can't see the "mean" girls not being both included if MM was) That swing by CN day camp muddies those waters for me. LE seems to be a bit too lenient with women. IMO There are mean girls who enjoy hurting others as well.

MS involvement with clean up before DM got back on the 4th; may or may not have been dealing with the mattress, but one of his texts sure sounded like a problem he was dealing with but he said it could wait until DM gets back. How would MS been able to keep MM out of that as well as the night before?

Someone also mentioned payment for MS....wonder why he was working on his passport. (?)
 
As far as the jury knowing about prior convictions, I would not be shocked to hear they dont. It always surprises me that people think everyone and their brother discuss this case or other highly published cases. There are many many people who are completely oblivious to current events and many that ignore the news quite purposely. Theres those that just breifly scan it or catch a few minutes flipping threw channels. Out of the 5 people who work in my office, I am the only one that even knows this trial is happening at the moment. And when I brought it up..there was a vague memory from one person about some truck guy. The others no real clue what im talling about. And I am someone who is very interested in true crime and obsessed just a bit with this story and others ive followed. Much like most of you here I would assume. So because we here know so many details and come here daily to follow along and discuss IMO ww come to expect everyone is discussing this case over their morning coffee. But when you actually look at tje numbers here and elsewhere..we are just a minute fraction of the population. So I truly believe it is very possible no one on that jury ever heard of DM or MS before this trial. Just maybe one or 2 has.or maybe someone heard about TB back when it happened because they scrolled by a story somewhere but they have no idea these 2 guys had anything to do with it. MOO
 
I think the jury is going to think it through on MS for a long time. DM is no doubt guilty. MS is guilty as well, but how much? Did he plan and help her murder or did he just clean it up. The crux of the issue IMO is figuring out if MS knew she going to be killed.

I think just planning for it... the incinerator... planning for any body, not Laura specifically is enough for a finding of guilt.

Regardless, there is plenty more there for them to convict, and I'm sure we'll hear about even more that "the jury wasn't allowed to hear".
 
Hello everyone!

I was so busy yesterday, and was very, very behind as a result. I am finally caught up, and just wanted to say a big thank you to everyone who posted the tweets and live blog, and everyone else for the thoughtful comments. So much hard work and mutual respect goes into this forum, and I'm very appreciative of that.

:loveyou::tyou:
 
ad any interest because I live in Hamilton and posters were everywhere of Tim s truck and that he was missing. Then I saw Sharlene on TV pleading for him to be returned safely. I also learned that he had met two strangers on a buy and sell internet site, and I was on some and did buy something from one. That is the only reason I paid attention.
Then when MS was arrested and he was from Oakville, and lived in the area I used to that also got my attention.
The more I learned about the case the more weird it was and I wanted to find out more. At first they said Tim s body had been burned beyond recognition at a farm. They did not mention the incinerator. I thought he had been set on fire and burned.
I don't normally follow crime cases. I did not pay too much attention to the Barnardo case.
I then found out that Tim s Bosma s case was linked to Laura Babcock so I wanted to see how they were linked.
Now I have learned a lot about the law from following the judge's instructions to the jury.
I also have been left stunned about some of the characters in this crime story. Like CN and MM and how they were so involved with men that were so pitiful.
MS, I don't know how he could be so less ambitious, he just did nothing and no wonder he was looking for excitement, his life was meaningless and drifting and had no purpose so he found someone to give him some kind of purpose, even if it was really bad.
He is not the only one, I knew some others in Oakville, they had very successful parents but they were into video games to an extreme and were obsessed and did drugs and I thought it was going to end up badly for them too.
MS had moved to Oakville he was not from there, and looks like he had some bad friends before he moved there like the gun dealer.
Then he kept in contact with the gun dealer and maybe the gun dealer also sold drugs, so MS already was tangled up with some bad characters before he moved to Oakville.
There are bad characters in Oakville, one person she told me she was going to rent in a condo and the guy had guns and drugs.
I have encountered a lot of people when I went to a college the guy was dealing drugs and had friends in prison and I kept my distance from him because the people you associate with can determine the path your life will take.
 
Reason for MS’ big smile IMO is the ‘success’ of the ‘next level mission’.
They had been planning this for months. The failure of BBQ #1 was a setback. BBQ #2 finally arrives. Top priority. They are working on the trailer to make it mobile. Good thing too cuz that very night, after “talking to that girl if you know what I mean” they had to relocate to the hangar for a power source. Remember the “BBQ is ready for meat”. And so here they are, bones burning and crackling. Reason for celebration in their twisted minds.
Next level mission accomplished. The recording studio promised by DM so close, MS could taste it. I’m a real gangsta, gotta write a rap about this right away. Yeah!
MS was all in from the get go. More than AATF. The smile says it all.
Evidence in totality = M1.
JMO

Yep that is exactly the reason for his big smile
 
As far as the jury knowing about prior convictions, I would not be shocked to hear they dont. It always surprises me that people think everyone and their brother discuss this case or other highly published cases. There are many many people who are completely oblivious to current events and many that ignore the news quite purposely. Theres those that just breifly scan it or catch a few minutes flipping threw channels. Out of the 5 people who work in my office, I am the only one that even knows this trial is happening at the moment. And when I brought it up..there was a vague memory from one person about some truck guy. The others no real clue what im talling about. And I am someone who is very interested in true crime and obsessed just a bit with this story and others ive followed. Much like most of you here I would assume. So because we here know so many details and come here daily to follow along and discuss IMO ww come to expect everyone is discussing this case over their morning coffee. But when you actually look at tje numbers here and elsewhere..we are just a minute fraction of the population. So I truly believe it is very possible no one on that jury ever heard of DM or MS before this trial. Just maybe one or 2 has.or maybe someone heard about TB back when it happened because they scrolled by a story somewhere but they have no idea these 2 guys had anything to do with it. MOO
I totally agree with this. Us true crime junkies are such a small fraction of the population in the grand picture. So many people I know, who are intelligent folks who watch the news, still haven't heard of these cases, or at least to the degree that would make them prejudice if sitting on a jury.

What I DO wonder however, is if any of the jurors are anything like me. Even after given explicit rules to stay away from MSM, I might just be so inclined to do a little google search of DM and MS. Even just to see if they were on FB or other forms of social media. Call me a little ****, but I just might do that and keep it to myself, lol. Sleuthing is in my blood, I can't help it!
 
I think the jury is going to think it through on MS for a long time. DM is no doubt guilty. MS is guilty as well, but how much? Did he plan and help her murder or did he just clean it up. The crux of the issue IMO is figuring out if MS knew she going to be killed.
If you read the texts between MS and DM, they were really tight and I doubt he did not know DM s plans to want to get rid of Laura.
 
I think when JC mentions the 'Laura situation' does anyone else think it is possible it is a mix up with the May 25th text, when MS wonders what happened with that Jen girl? Possible she mixed it up or MS mixed up the name? Then they talk about ting tings - curious bit that they would bring other girls in relation to the incinerator.
 
I think when JC mentions the 'Laura situation' does anyone else think it is possible it is a mix up with the May 25th text, when MS wonders what happened with that Jen girl? Possible she mixed it up or MS mixed up the name? Then they talk about ting tings - curious bit that they would bring other girls in relation to the incinerator.
Hmmm? I'm not following, my apologies. Could you clarify?
 
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