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  1. #1486
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuff View Post
    As I recall, the Crown was not permitted to refer to this as a motive during the trial. Can't figure out where Code is coming from on this one.
    In the sentencing hearing, it was noteworthy, I thought, that both Cameron and the Babcocks' victim impact statements clearly described the crimes as thrill-seeking and referred to the photos as trophies. MS may have also been seeking remuneration in the form of the car DM allegedly promised him, but their texts back and forth seem pretty clear about their shared and hideous excitement about the prospect of killing.
    There is a difference between enjoying what you’re doing and the enjoyment being the primary motive for doing it.

    For my part I think they enjoyed profiting from criminal activity above any secondary motivations. I’m sure Smich was fed by the (false) sense of brotherhood and a sense of power in violence and dangerousness. Millard probably got off on the latter as well, and likely enjoyed directing operations having Smich in his subservient role. But in the final accounting it was all means to an end.

  2. #1487
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    Some of the arguments discussed in that canlii document were broken off for a subsequent proceeding:

    https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...?resultIndex=9

    A few notable things:

    Millard provided evidence at MWJ trial. Stated he bought a gun from MWJ to give it to his father as a gift, which he subsequently claims he did.

    They considered pulling over a pharmaceutical truck, presumably to steal drugs.

    There is evidence of both MWJ and Millard trafficking cocaine.

    Smich sold heroin to Desi Liberatore.

    During the garage discussions, Liberatore asked Smich if he could get in on some of their missions and make some money. Smich replied that he would have to “merk people … sometimes you got to kill people”.

  3. #1488
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuff View Post
    As I recall, the Crown was not permitted to refer to this as a motive during the trial. Can't figure out where Code is coming from on this one.
    In the sentencing hearing, it was noteworthy, I thought, that both Cameron and the Babcocks' victim impact statements clearly described the crimes as thrill-seeking and referred to the photos as trophies. MS may have also been seeking remuneration in the form of the car DM allegedly promised him, but their texts back and forth seem pretty clear about their shared and hideous excitement about the prospect of killing.
    Code's comments (where Code is coming from) are his reasoning for disallowing the other criminal acts and character evidence. I haven't gone through to source CanLII document linked, but presumably this is the decision and rationale from the Crown's pre-trial motion to include these items in evidence (which Code did deem inadmissible). The full picture is that the Crown was trying to show not only thrill-seeking behaviour, but a steady escalation thereof.

    During the sentencing hearing, however, a separate argument is made for what can be considered by Code in his sentencing decision. That is, items deemed inadmissible for the trial itself can still potentially be considered by the judge in his sentencing decision. Code might not have labelled the acts to be thrill-seeking, but he can potentially include them in his sentencing decision.

    But the document itself is from the pre-trial period, which is why Code is responding to the theory of thrill-seeking behaviour.

    (Sorry for the ramble.)

  4. #1489
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuneBug67 View Post
    There is a difference between enjoying what you’re doing and the enjoyment being the primary motive for doing it.
    Yes, this. Thank you. That was a lot more concise and comprehensive than my ramble.

  5. #1490
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    Ps: nuff - I don't mean to imply that you don't already know the content I barfed out in my 2nd paragraph.

  6. #1491
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    Quote Originally Posted by gremlingrrl View Post
    Ps: nuff - I don't mean to imply that you don't already know the content I barfed out in my 2nd paragraph.
    Thanks - I do know (and would not describe it as "barfed out" - you summarized it well.) But, I respectfully disagree, at least with respect to DM. He had no reason to do anything for material gain; his enjoyment seems to have come from performing criminal acts partly for their own sake, and partly because he liked being able to manipulate others to join him. His entire history reflects a pattern of seeking excitement by shocking people (e.g. eating dog biscuits at school) and engaging in risky behaviours (e.g.
    committing petty robberies, racing cars.) Certainly not all people who do such things are psychopaths, but psychopathic behaviour often includes seeking thrills as a way to replace the emotions they cannot feel. (In that there is sound research showing evidence of inborn or acquired neurological deficits leading to psychopathy, I wrestle with how society deals with criminals of this type, but I accept that we need to protect ourselves by locking them away.) All MOO, of course, but based on a lot of reading over the years.

    I do not believe that relieving CN of her annoyance at, or jealousy of, Laura, was a primary motive, nor that his desire for the damn truck was why he killed (or had his acolyte kill) Tim Bosma.

  7. #1492
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuneBug67 View Post
    I donít think this document has been discussed here yet:

    https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...resultIndex=10

    Credit goes to posters on another site for turning it up. Among the gems: Millard robbed a convenience store, drove his car on top of another car at a dealership, set two different cars on fire, and he and Smich discussed torturing somebody they suspected of robbing Millardís house of dope.

    There is an interesting passage where Code says he sees little evidence of a thrill seeking motive in the crimes. I would tend to agree with that.
    What was going on late-May 2012?

    The second body of evidence on this Motion is three rap songs composed by Smich. The content of these three songs does not relate to the disappearance and alleged murder of Ms. Babcock. Furthermore, the content is obviously discreditable. The Crown seeks to use the three rap songs only for the purpose of inferring the following facts: that Smichís nickname was ďsay 10Ē; that one of Smichís phones was number 416-829-9372; and that Smich and Millard were at Millardís home in Etobicoke on the night of May 28/29, 2012 (which is a time when certain relevant events occurred).

  8. #1493
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    Quote Originally Posted by jash View Post
    What was going on late-May 2012?
    They were setting up to run the homemade incinerator

  9. #1494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey-St View Post
    Yes, that's correct.

    That's an interesting comparison. For me, if she had simply been trying to make contact with him, it would have (or should have) just been intercepted. What's striking here, is the whole covert operation involving DM, Paradkhar, MB, and CN, to completely violate the court. To me, that's criminal. At the end of the day, if LE agrees or not, is up to them.
    If CN was totally innocent of knowledge of DMs crimes, imagine how strange it would have been for his mother to call out of the blue to come and wipe down prints, remove stuff from his house, receive letters clandestinely through a lawyer and have a rich boyfriend blatantly requesting perjury. Would a normal person just think, "well okay"? Would these people even make these requests of an obliviously innocent person? Why was CN called over by Rabbit this time? The last time somebody died she called JS to the scene.

  10. #1495
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuneBug67 View Post
    Some of the arguments discussed in that canlii document were broken off for a subsequent proceeding:

    https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...?resultIndex=9

    A few notable things:

    Millard provided evidence at MWJ trial. Stated he bought a gun from MWJ to give it to his father as a gift, which he subsequently claims he did.

    They considered pulling over a pharmaceutical truck, presumably to steal drugs.

    There is evidence of both MWJ and Millard trafficking cocaine.

    Smich sold heroin to Desi Liberatore.

    During the garage discussions, Liberatore asked Smich if he could get in on some of their missions and make some money. Smich replied that he would have to “merk people … sometimes you got to kill people”.
    Wth. Wth. Wth. Wth.

    Yeah, Smich isn't as culpable as Millard. I see it now.


  11. #1496
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    Quote Originally Posted by jash View Post
    What was going on late-May 2012?
    Interesting. (In regard to the CANLII)
    I was on a city bus heading over the 427 towards the Kipling station around Halloween 2003. Some little A**~<||s were tossing pieces of their school pumpkins out the windows when one of them threw his entire pumpkin onto the 427 below just as we were passing above it. The driver yelled they better not have thrown that onto the highway, but it already happened.
    Last edited by Errrr; Yesterday at 11:42 PM. Reason: Spelling

  12. #1497
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    Isn't there a Toronto French School around the same location Laura Babcocks phone disappeared?

  13. #1498
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuff View Post
    Thanks - I do know (and would not describe it as "barfed out" - you summarized it well.) But, I respectfully disagree, at least with respect to DM. He had no reason to do anything for material gain; his enjoyment seems to have come from performing criminal acts partly for their own sake, and partly because he liked being able to manipulate others to join him. His entire history reflects a pattern of seeking excitement by shocking people (e.g. eating dog biscuits at school) and engaging in risky behaviours (e.g.
    committing petty robberies, racing cars.) Certainly not all people who do such things are psychopaths, but psychopathic behaviour often includes seeking thrills as a way to replace the emotions they cannot feel. (In that there is sound research showing evidence of inborn or acquired neurological deficits leading to psychopathy, I wrestle with how society deals with criminals of this type, but I accept that we need to protect ourselves by locking them away.) All MOO, of course, but based on a lot of reading over the years.

    I do not believe that relieving CN of her annoyance at, or jealousy of, Laura, was a primary motive, nor that his desire for the damn truck was why he killed (or had his acolyte kill) Tim Bosma.
    I see the value in this point of view. I feel like "relieving CN" and "acquiring a truck" were cop outs for the fact that he wanted to "merk" people, and had no qualms about it. Maybe even enjoyed it.
    Last edited by Grey-St; Yesterday at 11:12 PM.

  14. #1499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Errrr View Post
    If CN was totally innocent of knowledge of DMs crimes, imagine how strange it would have been for his mother to call out of the blue to come and wipe down prints, remove stuff from his house, receive letters clandestinely through a lawyer and have a rich boyfriend blatantly requesting perjury. Would a normal person just think, "well okay"? Would these people even make these requests of an obliviously innocent person? Why was CN called over by Rabbit this time? The last time somebody died she called JS to the scene.
    I can't remember who called who, and I think when WM died MB and JS were out to dinner together, but in any sense, yes. They are all guilty as sin and there's no way around it, imo. Except apparently, in the eyes of LE.

  15. #1500
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuneBug67 View Post
    Some of the arguments discussed in that canlii document were broken off for a subsequent proceeding:

    https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...?resultIndex=9

    A few notable things:

    Millard provided evidence at MWJ trial. Stated he bought a gun from MWJ to give it to his father as a gift, which he subsequently claims he did.

    They considered pulling over a pharmaceutical truck, presumably to steal drugs.

    There is evidence of both MWJ and Millard trafficking cocaine.

    Smich sold heroin to Desi Liberatore.

    During the garage discussions, Liberatore asked Smich if he could get in on some of their missions and make some money. Smich replied that he would have to “merk people … sometimes you got to kill people”.
    Even before Grand Theft Auto came out, I don't think pharmaceutical trucks were posting signage hinting at their contents. What a couple of idiots these guys are living inside video games. I wonder if they're experiencing stimulant withdrawal yet?

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