The Hours and Days After Leaving 15th Street

Tortoise

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I haven't seen a thread for this and I thought it useful information to have on the forum. I believe the house was secured by LE at around 1:45pm.

December 26th (Thursday)

1:45 pm The Ramseys go to the Fernies' residence. JR, PR, JAR, MR and her boyfriend SL.
3 pm Det Patterson talks to BR at the Whites residence.
7:30 pm JR goes for a walk with John Fernie and Dr Beuff.
9:15 pm JR goes to Denver airport to meet his brother Jeff.
10:48 pm PR's sisters arrive at Fernies'.
12:00 midnight JR returns from the airport with his brother.


December 27th (Friday)

8:15 am JBR's Autopsy.
Eve - JR goes to Crist Mortuary to make funeral and transportation arrangements. (assumed this eve and not next because he is able to give LA the details same eve)
9:30 pm - 10:10 pm Det. Linda Arndt and Sgt Larry Mason go to the Fernie residence and talk to JR. Also in the room are Jeff R, R Westmoreland, M Bynum and Dr Beuff. (Did Dr Beuff move in too?) JR tells them there will be a private memorial service in Boulder on Sunday at 2pm after which they will be flying to Atlanta and JBR's funeral will be held on Tuesday. LA says she will telephone Sat am to arrange interviews for JR & PR.


December 28th (Saturday)

The R's provide forensic samples at Boulder PD
Noon - Bynum tells Arndt JR & PR will not answer questions without a criminal attorney present.
PR chooses her funeral outfit from a selection of outfits sent to her by a local store
Auntie Pam raids the house at 15th Street and leaves with items listed by JR/PR (including JR's bible and the My Twinn doll)
Bryan Morgan meets the Rs at Fernies residence and they retain his services



December 29th (Sunday)

PR's 40th birthday
2pm Memorial service held at St John's Episcopal Church, Boulder.
Rs fly to Atlanta



December 30th (Monday)

JBR visitation at funeral home, Mayes-Ward Dobbins, Marietta, Georgia



December 31st (Tuesday)

Funeral at Peachtree Presbyterian Church and burial at St James' Episcopal Cemetary



January 1st (Wednesday)

JR & PR perform on CNN
 
At 9:00pm, JR and FW drove in a car together to pick-up Jeff Ramsey and I believe Westmoreland. Imagine the conversation between JR and FW in the car on the way to pick them up.


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Good new thread!

It is a bit ironic (or is it?) that the chronology reads somewhat like a film synopsis at IMBD, repleat with secret convos with major players who go for a walk together -- ooops that should have been a golf outing, sorry JR we know you tried.. Included is a medical doctor meant to appear as one thing when actually he is placed there for another reason. PP, the one-woman crime-scene destroyer for comedic relief. Playing dress-up for a re-inactment of JFK funeral. A gun or guns hidden under sofa cushions. Culminating in a LIVE appearance on CNN's Larry King Live! Wow, there's more Hollywood movie stuff there than what the RN had in it! And zoom forward to present day, all Hollywood major scenes since then.

Let's not forget that JR bragged that his little affair when he was married to the first Mrs Ramsey was so bizarre he "could have written the screenplay" to the Fatal Attraction movie.

Hey folks, some narcissists live their entire lives like this, even if it is only in their own minds. The ones who attain wealth and power can actually sometimes create a real-life production of it.

JMO, plz pardon my interruption. Please carry on - this is a good timeline to have documented here at WS, very helpful!
 
Bang goes the excuse that JR & PR were not physically capable of attending the police station for questioning on Saturday morning. Can't you come to the house? Whine whine.

They went there to provide forensic samples!
 
Ya, 125 days after their daughter’s murder, they finally sit down with the police for their first formal interview. A 125-day head start for the “killer” to vanish.

Even more incredible was that PR actually sat down with police for an interview on Feb 10 1997, to support, and give statement/story regarding Pasta Jay’s arrest.

Of course, during this interview, Patsy couldn’t help but spontaneously utter-
“Then she told Parker that someone had broken into her house and killed her daughter. “There is still a murderer loose in the city,” she said. “You know, my little girl was murdered. All these people are hounding us instead of trying to find the murderer. Somebody broke into our house, you know, killed my little girl,” she repeated.”

PMPT


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Dec 26 11:30pm-

Conversation between Elliot Zaret of the Daily Camera and Detective Larry Mason just outside the Ramsey home:

What do you want to know?” Mason finally said.

“The cause of death.”

“I can’t tell you that.”

“Was she shot?”

“No.”

“Was she stabbed?”

“No.”

“So she was strangled,”
Zaret said.

“I didn’t say that. You can’t print she was strangled.”

“Can I print she wasn’t shot or stabbed?”

“Yes. And if you burn me, I’m never going to say another word to you again.”

Zaret printed only what they’d agreed on.




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Dec. 26 1:30pm-

“Mason knew there was no time to lose in clearing the house, securing the crime scene, and getting a search warrant. He decided he would move the Ramseys and their friends to the Holiday Inn at 28th and Baseline. He wanted everyone in separate rooms so that he could interview them independently.”
In the study, however, another detective overheard John Ramsey talking on the phone to his private pilot. He was making plans to fly somewhere before nightfall. Moments later, Ramsey told Mason that he, his wife, and his son would be flying to Atlanta that evening. He said he had something really important to attend to. At first Mason thought Ramsey was planning to leave the country.
“You can’t leave,” Mason told him. “We have a lot of unfinished business here. We have to talk to you.”

PMPT


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Updated (underlined);


December 26th (Thursday)

1:45 pm The Ramseys go to the Fernies' residence. JR, PR, JAR, MR and her boyfriend SL.
3 pm Det Patterson talks to BR at the Whites residence.
7:30 pm JR goes for a walk with John Fernie and Dr Beuff.
9:15 pm JR goes to Denver airport to meet his brother Jeff.
10:48 pm PR's sisters arrive at Fernies'.
12:00 midnight JR returns from the airport with his brother.


December 27th (Friday)

8:15 am JBR's Autopsy.
Eve - JR goes to Crist Mortuary to make funeral and transportation arrangements. (assumed this eve and not next because he is able to give LA the details same eve)
9:30 pm - 10:10 pm Det. Linda Arndt and Sgt Larry Mason go to the Fernie residence and talk to JR. Also in the room are Jeff R, R Westmoreland, M Bynum and Dr Beuff. (Did Dr Beuff move in too?) JR tells them there will be a private memorial service in Boulder on Sunday at 2pm after which they will be flying to Atlanta and JBR's funeral will be held on Tuesday. LA says she will telephone Sat am to arrange interviews for JR & PR.


December 28th (Saturday)

The R's provide forensic samples at Boulder County Justice Centre (accompanied by an attorney from Haddon, Morgan & Foreman)
Noon - Bynum tells Arndt JR & PR will not answer questions without a criminal attorney present.
PR chooses her funeral outfit from a selection of outfits sent to her by a local store
Auntie Pam raids the house at 15th Street and leaves with items listed by JR/PR (including JR's bible and the My Twinn doll)
Bryan Morgan meets the Rs at Fernies residence and they retain his services
Afternoon - In a telephone conversation the afternoon of Dec. 28, the district attorney's chief trial deputy, Peter Hofstrom, asked Meyer if there was any medical reason to retain custody of the body."I told him no," Meyer said. He said he had decided to release the body on Dec. 29, before investigators made their inquiry.


December 29th (Sunday)

PR's 40th birthday
2pm Memorial service held at St John's Episcopal Church, Boulder.
Rs fly to Atlanta



December 30th (Monday)

JBR visitation at funeral home, Mayes-Ward Dobbins, Marietta, Georgia



December 31st (Tuesday)

Funeral at Peachtree Presbyterian Church and burial at St James' Episcopal Cemetary



January 1st (Wednesday)

JR & PR perform on CNN

(additional information from this link http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/04/25-2.html )
 
2:17pm- Patterson interviews BR at White residence.


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[FONT=&amp]BARBARA WALTERS There is the impression that from Day 1 the two of you refused to cooperate with the police.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]JOHN RAMSEY No. That, that is a… a media myth. Uh. (PAUSE) We met with the Police on the 26th. We met…[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]BARBARA WALTERS [OVERLAP] And talked with them?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]JOHN RAMSEY And talked with them. Talked with them for hours on the 27th. When they asked us to come to the Police Station. We said you know yeah we want to keep working with ya but can't you come here? We can't go out. Patsy was in bed. Patsy was… barely able to move. And all we asked was they come, come here. They said well no, we have paper work at the police station we might need to get hold of[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]BARBARA WALTERS OK. On the 27th a very good friend of yours Mike Bynam said to you I think that you should hire lawyers.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]JOHN RAMSEY Mike...knew things that were going on that we didn't know. He… he knew that the police by that time were withholding JonBenet's body for burial. He also, based on his experience as a prosecutor and as a district attorney could see that the police were very quickly focusing on us as the killers.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]BARBARA WALTERS Your lawyers advised you then not to submit to police questions. Why not, people say, wouldn't you have wanted to tell them everything?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]JOHN RAMSEY Well I don't recall that our lawyers told us at the time. Uh… we were perfectly willing and anxious to work with the police to find the killer. We had a higher priority at that point, and that was to bury our daughter.

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/03172000ramseyonbarbarawalters.htm

[/FONT]From actual timeline extract (below) it can be seen that the attempt to withhold the body came after Bynum said the Ramseys wouldn't be interviewed :

December 28th (Saturday)


The R's provide forensic samples at Boulder County Justice Centre (accompanied by an attorney from Haddon, Morgan & Foreman)
Noon - Bynum tells Arndt JR & PR will not answer questions without a criminal attorney present . (Source Schiller)
- -
- -
Bryan Morgan meets the Rs at Fernies residence and they retain his services
Afternoon - In a telephone conversation the afternoon of Dec. 28, the district attorney's chief trial deputy, Peter Hofstrom, asked Meyer if there was any medical reason to retain custody of the body."I told him no," Meyer said. He said he had decided to release the body on Dec. 29, before investigators made their inquiry.
 
I have been telling myself to never comment due to the fear I may go off the handle...but here I go. What always bothered me about the "Patsy was in bed" thing is that it reminds me of something my mother did (and still does, as I was forced to move home) whenever she felt she caused harm to me but didn't want to face it or own up to it. She would go upstairs and lock the door and stay up there for days before coming down and declaring her ownership of her kingdom and never saying she was sorry or EVER and I mean EVER own up to any of her own behavior, which I now know as BPD with elevated narcissistic tendencies.

There is a lot more I could say on this but I will leave it there. The point I am attempting to make has to do with guilt and taking ownership.

The second thing is the comment John makes about the higher priority being that he buries his daughter, not talk to police to find the killer.

On the one hand I can understand that comment if it were separate from a supposed failed abduction-turned into murder investigation. I can tell you right now that if that was my daughter and evidence could be obtained from her body or more clues as to how she was killed that may lead to her killer, I would have no problem staying the burial for these very important things. It is possible all that could be obtained was and there was no reason to keep JonBenet. His comment just doesn't seem well placed, especially after already losing a daughter and now another one to murder.

What Patsy and John never learned, IMO, is that we always speak the truth first before our brains catch up with our plan to lie.
 
I have been telling myself to never comment due to the fear I may go off the handle...but here I go. What always bothered me about the "Patsy was in bed" thing is that it reminds me of something my mother did (and still does, as I was forced to move home) whenever she felt she caused harm to me but didn't want to face it or own up to it. She would go upstairs and lock the door and stay up there for days before coming down and declaring her ownership of her kingdom and never saying she was sorry or EVER and I mean EVER own up to any of her own behavior, which I now know as BPD with elevated narcissistic tendencies.

There is a lot more I could say on this but I will leave it there. The point I am attempting to make has to do with guilt and taking ownership.

The second thing is the comment John makes about the higher priority being that he buries his daughter, not talk to police to find the killer.

On the one hand I can understand that comment if it were separate from a supposed failed abduction-turned into murder investigation. I can tell you right now that if that was my daughter and evidence could be obtained from her body or more clues as to how she was killed that may lead to her killer, I would have no problem staying the burial for these very important things. It is possible all that could be obtained was and there was no reason to keep JonBenet. His comment just doesn't seem well placed, especially after already losing a daughter and now another one to murder.

What Patsy and John never learned, IMO, is that we always speak the truth first before our brains catch up with our plan to lie.

Ham-
Please go off the handle more often. One thing that infuriates me is when people say if BDI that the parents covered it up to save their son. Nope. Narcissism was the reason.


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At some point John Ramsey claims he went to walk the foothills of Boulder alone. This was after Pam Paugh removed American Girl dolls on the 28th - late afternoon?

IMO he was out getting a money order and sending in an anonymous order for a replacement doll to be sent to Jonbenet at his office.

The Ramseys mention the My Twinn doll but never the other dolls, almost as a smoke screen.

The order for the replacement doll was processed into the doll company computer on 1/1/1997. This was a legal mail holiday which means it would have arrived by USPS in Middleton Wisconsin the day before, 12/31/1996, it could not have been delivered 1/1/1997, no mail on New Years Day. First Class Mail from Colorado or most anywhere in the US to Wisconsin is 2-3 business days. It would have been mailed approximately the 28th or 29th. Whoever did order had to be a pre-existing customer with a catalogue. Catalogue requests were made over the phone or from book inserts and it's about 2 weeks for delivery as Third Class Mail. The company had 3 processing centers in WI at the time and Middleton alone handled the mail orders. Mail orders were processed within a day or two, kept for 2 weeks, then shredded. It did not ship until the following day; 1/2/1997 by UPS, again because 1/1/1997 was a holiday. It would have arrived in 3-5 business days.

It was paid for with a money order and included an order form from the middle of the catalogue. This is where they would have gotten the physical address to ship the order as well, no envelope or postage is provided you need to do that on your own. The order form has a chart with shipping charges based on the dollar amount order total. This order and the money order were for one doll and it's shipping charge, no taxes involved.

Why didn't John Ramsey run to police or the DA? Was he expecting the doll? Did he need a replacement that would show no connection to the crime? The original doll would have had a mirror image of the missing adhesive from the duct tape on it's back. Who knew Pam Paugh removed the dolls for the Ramseys? Did she remove a catalogue too? It wasn't in Schiller's book until years later. The list of who could have ordered the doll is small, a couple people, a couple really, John and Patsy Ramsey.

I did not see the computer file for this order until the spring of 2000. I had seen catalogues sent to 15th street and a Samantha Doll to Charlevoix for her last birthday. Computer searches are done with zip code and last name. I'd only seen the 15th Street file but then they changed to a different vendor's zip code directory and the sequence for Boulder's 10 or so zip codes had Pearl Street First instead of 15th Street.

It sent chills up my spine and the hair on the back of my neck stood up.
 
At some point John Ramsey claims he went to walk the foothills of Boulder alone. This was after Pam Paugh removed American Girl dolls on the 28th - late afternoon?

IMO he was out getting a money order and sending in an anonymous order for a replacement doll to be sent to Jonbenet at his office.

The Ramseys mention the My Twinn doll but never the other dolls, almost as a smoke screen.

The order for the replacement doll was processed into the doll company computer on 1/1/1997. This was a legal mail holiday which means it would have arrived by USPS in Middleton Wisconsin the day before, 12/31/1996, it could not have been delivered 1/1/1997, no mail on New Years Day. First Class Mail from Colorado or most anywhere in the US to Wisconsin is 2-3 business days. It would have been mailed approximately the 28th or 29th. Whoever did order had to be a pre-existing customer with a catalogue. Catalogue requests were made over the phone or from book inserts and it's about 2 weeks for delivery as Third Class Mail. The company had 3 processing centers in WI at the time and Middleton alone handled the mail orders. Mail orders were processed within a day or two, kept for 2 weeks, then shredded. It did not ship until the following day; 1/2/1997 by UPS, again because 1/1/1997 was a holiday. It would have arrived in 3-5 business days.

It was paid for with a money order and included an order form from the middle of the catalogue. This is where they would have gotten the physical address to ship the order as well, no envelope or postage is provided you need to do that on your own. The order form has a chart with shipping charges based on the dollar amount order total. This order and the money order were for one doll and it's shipping charge, no taxes involved.

Why didn't John Ramsey run to police or the DA? Was he expecting the doll? Did he need a replacement that would show no connection to the crime? The original doll would have had a mirror image of the missing adhesive from the duct tape on it's back. Who knew Pam Paugh removed the dolls for the Ramseys? Did she remove a catalogue too? It wasn't in Schiller's book until years later. The list of who could have ordered the doll is small, a couple people, a couple really, John and Patsy Ramsey.

I did not see the computer file for this order until the spring of 2000. I had seen catalogues sent to 15th street and a Samantha Doll to Charlevoix for her last birthday. Computer searches are done with zip code and last name. I'd only seen the 15th Street file but then they changed to a different vendor's zip code directory and the sequence for Boulder's 10 or so zip codes had Pearl Street First instead of 15th Street.

It sent chills up my spine and the hair on the back of my neck stood up.

I believe you. Always have. The thing is no one in Boulder wants to solve this case. There is a reason for this. I wish someone would go rogue or grow a pair and tell the truth.


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Thank-you,

Are there other tips with information that were not followed up? Seems likely.
 
Computer searches are done with zip code and last name. I'd only seen the 15th Street file but then they changed to a different vendor's zip code directory and the sequence for Boulder's 10 or so zip codes had Pearl Street First instead of 15th Street.
rsbm

I'm having difficulty understanding what this sentence means. In particular who is 'they' (changed to..) and then the relevance of zip codes and Pearl Street. Could you explain further?
 
rsbm

I'm having difficulty understanding what this sentence means. In particular who is 'they' (changed to..) and then the relevance of zip codes and Pearl Street. Could you explain further?

I believe the doll was delivered to Access Graphics on Pearl Street.


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This was 18 years ago, before the internet, all orders were either phoned in and paid by credit card - 99% - or sent in and paid by check or money order. The 'they' is the American Girl doll company. The job was sitting in a little cubical with a head set, computer screen and keyboard. Orders came in over the phone and were entered. Down time was spent putting catalogue requests in the computer. At times there was significant down time with no orders and no catalogue request so gossip, crafts, reading and whatever took over. Each cubical had a zip code directory for reference. I indeed did look up the Ramsey account after reading PMPT. I found only a catalogue request to the 15th street address. I also found a doll shipped to Charlevoix. Later the doll company changed the zip code directory to another provider, a different publisher, a smaller and no doubt cheaper version but sufficient. This version had the zip codes in opposite order and the Pearl Street address appeared with the order for a doll ordered and shipped to Jonbenet after her death.
 
This was 18 years ago, before the internet, all orders were either phoned in and paid by credit card - 99% - or sent in and paid by check or money order. The 'they' is the American Girl doll company. The job was sitting in a little cubical with a head set, computer screen and keyboard. Orders came in over the phone and were entered. Down time was spent putting catalogue requests in the computer. At times there was significant down time with no orders and no catalogue request so gossip, crafts, reading and whatever took over. Each cubical had a zip code directory for reference. I indeed did look up the Ramsey account after reading PMPT. I found only a catalogue request to the 15th street address. I also found a doll shipped to Charlevoix. Later the doll company changed the zip code directory to another provider, a different publisher, a smaller and no doubt cheaper version but sufficient. This version had the zip codes in opposite order and the Pearl Street address appeared with the order for a doll ordered and shipped to Jonbenet after her death.
Thanks, I didn't realise you were employed there. Was it a Samantha doll?
 
This was 18 years ago, before the internet, all orders were either phoned in and paid by credit card - 99% - or sent in and paid by check or money order. The 'they' is the American Girl doll company. The job was sitting in a little cubical with a head set, computer screen and keyboard. Orders came in over the phone and were entered. Down time was spent putting catalogue requests in the computer. At times there was significant down time with no orders and no catalogue request so gossip, crafts, reading and whatever took over. Each cubical had a zip code directory for reference. I indeed did look up the Ramsey account after reading PMPT. I found only a catalogue request to the 15th street address. I also found a doll shipped to Charlevoix. Later the doll company changed the zip code directory to another provider, a different publisher, a smaller and no doubt cheaper version but sufficient. This version had the zip codes in opposite order and the Pearl Street address appeared with the order for a doll ordered and shipped to Jonbenet after her death.

Thank you. Your insights are very interesting, and yes I believe you about every detail. I'm probably just being dense, but I don't fully understand the RAMifications and don't want to goad anyone into speaking out about their speculations. If these facts were not fully investigated I guess I can add that to the long list of dismaying issues in the case.

First thing that comes to mind is PR saying on LKL that her daughter was "America's Princess". Grief stricken mother who loved her daughter that is understandable, but the attempt to use national media to promote the idea of an American Princess who was recently brutally muderdered in her own home with her own family most suspicious (yes, anything to take the scrutiny off the parents!) just goes way too far. Over the top, people who knew PR said it, and the public got to see it over and over again in the weeks months and years that followed. JMO
 

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