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  1. #1
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    Buckets used to move cremains on Avery property

    Interesting news clip circa November 14, 2005 (found on another forum):

    From the search warrants executed at Avery salvage Yard detailing some of the evidence allegedly found, including

    "A number of five-gallon type buckets have been located on the Avery compound property which appear to have been utilized to distribute the burned remains..."

    http://www.wbay.com/video?vid=414933454


    It can be seen listed as item 20 on this page:

    http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...le.pdf#page=54




    Last edited by proudfootz; 03-21-2018 at 07:09 PM. Reason: ETA page from warrant

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by proudfootz View Post
    Interesting news clip circa November 14, 2005 (found on another forum):

    From the search warrants executed at Avery salvage Yard detailing some of the evidence allegedly found, including

    "A number of five-gallon type buckets have been located on the Avery compound property which appear to have been utilized to distribute the burned remains..."

    http://www.wbay.com/video?vid=414933454


    It can be seen listed as item 20 on this page:

    http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...le.pdf#page=54




    I read that thread over there. I get that it could be that any buckets brought, were brought from LE when they were shovelling the remains into them, but how sloppy to put that in the search warrant then?

    And at some point, someone had that thought then? that the remains had been distributed there? and then people wonder why Avery has been saying he was framed all these years? lol

    I dare anyone to try to make sense of the buckets in CASO, or better yet... find them on the Evidence list! Good luck

  3. #3
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    Listing the buckets used by police to collect remains is stretching credulity a bit too far IMO.

    They might as well list the police cars, law enforcement uniforms and badges, and service weapons 'found' there.

    To me it looks like another smoking gun that something very wrong was going on with how evidence came to be 'discovered' at Avery Salvage.

  4. #4
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    Maybe Steven used them to move bones from the pit to the barrel.

    Was any bone material ever found in the buckets?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACJL View Post
    Maybe Steven used them to move bones from the pit to the barrel.

    Was any bone material ever found in the buckets?
    your guess would be as good as mine, there is nothing in CASO about these "buckets" and there is nothing in the evidence list about them either. I couldn't even find the one's that LE brought and used and tagged with property numbers in the evidence list.

    http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-co...dence-List.pdf

    I just don't see how there could be such a big mistake with the buckets, if they were LE's or the labs own buckets, attaching the statement " which appear to have been utilized to distribute the burned remains ", is puzzling.


  6. #6
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    If it's claimed that Steven used the buckets to move the cremains around, then that proves that claims that the cremains were not moved are false.

    Thus the hypothesis that TH was burned at the fire pit suffers yet another severe blow.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by proudfootz View Post
    If it's claimed that Steven used the buckets to move the cremains around, then that proves that claims that the cremains were not moved are false.

    Thus the hypothesis that TH was burned at the fire pit suffers yet another severe blow.
    Where was that claimed though?

  8. #8
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    If the cremains were moved to where they were later 'found' on the Avery property, then we cannot confirm TH's body was burned there.

    Who would have a motive to more the cremains to the vicinity of Steven Avery's home?

  9. #9
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    You said that claims that the remains were not moved are false. Afaik, I have not seen anyone make the claim that the bones were not moved.

    The defense said the bones were moved to the burnpit, possibly using the/a barrel. The State said they were moved from the burnpit to the barrel.

  10. #10
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    Since we all apparently agree that the remains were moved to where they were later said to be found, that is prima facie evidence of framing.

  11. #11
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    So the cremains can only be moved to the burnpit but not from the burnpit?

  12. #12
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    I've already shared a couple of lines of evidence which indicate no body was burned in the burn pit.

    It stands to reason that if there is evidence of the remains being moved they were probably moved to the burn pit from another location.

    All MOO.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by proudfootz View Post
    I've already shared a couple of lines of evidence which indicate no body was burned in the burn pit.
    I know you came up with the "bad smell" argument. A burned/burning body can smell really bad and your posts about it seemed to imply that you think this happens the vast majority of the time. Some links were shared that supported your argument, however what I wondered about after checking some of those:

    - were the bodies described in those links burned to the same degree as TH? Were those smoldering bodies with most of the flesh still present? Or were there just bones remaining?
    - were the people who smelled the vile odor as far away from the bodies as, for example, Barb or Scott were? How strong is this smell and how far does it reach?
    - is the smell of a burning body stronger than the smell of burning tires or any of the other materials that were burned on the 31st? (or the combined smell of them)
    - since a body consists of all kinds of different things, arguably all with a different smell when burned, how long would this bad smell endure, if there was a bad smell? Also considering other items were being burned

    Furthermore I also wonder about the following:

    - do you think there is a higher chance a body smells the way you claim it smells, because you found more websites that said so, than websites that claim otherwise?
    - Dassey confirmed at his trial he burned tires on the 31st in that burn pit, yet nobody described smelling those as well. Why do you think that is?
    - is the fact that nobody described smelling such a bad odor, proof of your claim that a body wasn't burned there? Or might it just as well be proof that TH just didn't smell the way you claim she did? Or that perhaps other items smelled stronger, or the smell didn't have enough radius?
    - crematorium workers actually describe the smell of burning human as roasting pork
    - here is a webpage by a crematorium worker who says only "sometimes" burning a body smells bad https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/y...y-operator-456
    - earlier I also shared with you a link that describes the smell as charcoallike.
    - Zellner's expert John DeHaan testified that a body would need at least 3,5 hours (under specific conditions) and up to over six hours to be burned to the degree TH was burned, outside. That's very long. We know Avery had a fire like this. Nowhere else in Manitowoc did anyone mention seeing a fire during the week of Halloween that lasted for such a long period of time (or had that bad odor).
    - DeHaan also confirms there is a variety in how the burning of a body smells.
    - if Steven did not burn TH that night, then why did he not tell the police he had a bonfire with Brendan?

    Quote Originally Posted by proudfootz View Post
    It stands to reason that if there is evidence of the remains being moved they were probably moved to the burn pit from another location.
    Cremains were found in the burn pit and in Barb's burn barrel. How do you think the cremains got in the barrel? The cremains in the barrel were described as being "noticeably larger". It would make sense for Avery to remove those larger bones from an open pit and hide them in a barrel. Thus Avery altered would've altered the burn pit scene.

  14. #14
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    Yes, I think that, based on the evidence of many persons who have smelled burning human flesh, that it is typical that they have a distinct and unforgettable odor.

    Moreover, anyone who has had any experience with bonfires knows that the smell of the fire sticks to your hair, your clothes, and your skin after exposure.

    I find myself in agreement with DeHaan and Fairgrieve that it is most likely the body was burned at another location.

    It is interesting to note that there was a report of a vile smelling fire on November 1st several miles from the Avery property before it was known Teresa was missing.

    It makes more sense, from a perpetrator's POV, to conduct such a burning far away from witnesses. Therefore a claim that there were no other fires for the whole week in the Manitowoc area is not only mistaken, but an argument from ignorance.

    The presence of several five gallon buckets which were apparently used in moving the cremains suggests that a great deal more material was moved than was found in the Janda burn barrel. Therefore I think it very likely the cremains likely got to both the barrels and the pit from these large buckets.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by proudfootz View Post
    Yes, I think that, based on the evidence of many persons who have smelled burning human flesh, that it is typical that they have a distinct and unforgettable odor.
    I agree that it is a possibility. People have reported it before. Yet, crematorium workers say it smells like pork and another says "sometimes" it smells bad. The chance it smells bad is, imo, not very high. Since I believe Avery's was the primary burn site, with the fact he even had a bonfire so shortly after the TH's visit, Steven lying about it, and she was burned being my personal Occam's Razor for this, and nobody smelled anything, is, for me at least, evidence she didn't smell.

    In the end, though, the whole smelling argument is pretty meaningless imo. If someone did smell a burned body, that would've been very incriminating. But the absence of the smell only tells us that: it was absent.
    Quote Originally Posted by proudfootz View Post
    Moreover, anyone who has had any experience with bonfires knows that the smell of the fire sticks to your hair, your clothes, and your skin after exposure.
    Yea? But the smell of fire and the bonfire happening is not being questioned, or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by proudfootz View Post
    I find myself in agreement with DeHaan and Fairgrieve that it is most likely the body was burned at another location.
    Fairgrieve said that the place with the most bones, in his experience, tends to be the place where the bones were moved to. He never excluded the possibility that TH was burned at Avery's. When Eisenberg said she had at least 40% of TH, Fairgrieve's testimony meant very little.

    Quote Originally Posted by proudfootz View Post
    It is interesting to note that there was a report of a vile smelling fire on November 1st several miles from the Avery property before it was known Teresa was missing.
    On the 31st, according to his affidavit for Zellner.

    Quote Originally Posted by proudfootz View Post
    It makes more sense, from a perpetrator's POV, to conduct such a burning far away from witnesses.
    You talk as if it is factual, but it's all "MOO", I presume? I understand Avery chose the burn pit. It makes it look ordinary. If he was caught stoking a 3,5 - 6+ hour fire somewhere else he had a big chance of being seen, especially after dark, and he would have to explain why he wouldn't just use his burn pit for burning a car seat and stuff like that.

    Using his burn pit, on his own property, he would also have control over the situation and he could kind of expect the people who would come closer, if any. Which is not the case if you make a fire in some random location where basically anyone could come near the fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by proudfootz View Post
    Therefore a claim that there were no other fires for the whole week in the Manitowoc area is not only mistaken, but an argument from ignorance.
    I'll gladly admit I was wrong if you provide me with a source that says there was another fire seen that could've burned TH's body to the degree she was burned.

    Quote Originally Posted by proudfootz View Post
    The presence of several five gallon buckets which were apparently used in moving the cremains suggests that a great deal more material was moved than was found in the Janda burn barrel. Therefore I think it very likely the cremains likely got to both the barrels and the pit from these large buckets.
    Maybe Steven used them to hide the bones. Eisenberg stated that the burn pit was the primary burn location and bones, described as "noticeably larger" were moved out of the open pit to the burn barrel. It was never in dispute that bones were moved so whoever moved them could've used buckets.

    That is, assuming the buckets were used at all to transport the bones. The defense, I believe, said at trial the barrel was used to transport the bones. No mention of buckets by them.



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