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  1. #1186
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    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Familicide

    According to this wiki link, this case may be classed as familicide and mass murder if it was deliberate.

  2. #1187
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    Tribe’ of Devonte Hart family friends continues to defend mothers amid evidence of abuse, murder-suicide

    The family members killed when their SUV went over a cliff in Northern California last week belonged to a “huge, huge tribe of friends,” a tribe that seems largely unwilling to face the mounting evidence that Sarah and Jennifer Hart were likely abusive parents, and that one of them may have killed at least three of their children in an apparent murder-suicide.

    “If you had asked me two weeks ago I would have just ranted and raved and told you how wonderful and perfect they are,” said Arlain Ingeldew, who knew the Harts as fellow members of a community she described as a group of hundreds of people drawn together by music, who attended the same festivals. Arlain said that she would often camp alongside the Hart family at Harmony Park, an outdoor event venue next to Lake Geneva in southern Minnesota.

    CrimeOnline has reached out to several people believed to be part of this so-called community, of which little is known, and only Arlain agreed to speak.

    “The festivals we go to are all about the music and art and loving nature and loving each other,” she said. “And harmony.”

    They were just idolized for being the perfect family.”


    Devonte gained national attention in 2014 when he was photographed in a tearful embrace with Sgt. Bret Barnum of the Portland Police Department, during a demonstration in the city to support the anti-police brutality protests in Ferguson, Missouri.

    A relative of Sgt. Barnum’s told CrimeOnline last week that the officer had reached out to the family after his photograph with Devonte became a media fixture. But according to that relative, the Harts rebuffed his attempts to meet with them.

    http://www.crimeonline.com/2018/04/0...urder-suicide/


    ---

    The sliver of hope that Devonte and Hannah and the dogs could still be alive is perhaps because "their community" has not been forthcoming? Very defensive. Maybe too in shock. Perhaps there is an "off the grid" network that communicates not by phone but by just showing up?

    If Devonte and Hannah were dropped off with someone under a false pretense, like care for our rebel children while Sarah goes to the hospital, would they now be terrified, or the kids terrified at the potential implications, accessory, safety, being separated?

    I know I am reaching here, but from the woman's recollections, the community is large, it's altruistic, and skeptical of traditional institutions... Even if the Harts did not have close friendships, it is perhaps a large elusive network?

    The other piece I did not know was the officer reached out to meet Devonte after their photo became famous. So, that's two prominent people, he and Ken, who were rebuffed. So, these women turned away from the positive feedback, too.


  3. #1188
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosemadderlake View Post
    Tribe’ of Devonte Hart family friends continues to defend mothers amid evidence of abuse, murder-suicide

    The family members killed when their SUV went over a cliff in Northern California last week belonged to a “huge, huge tribe of friends,” a tribe that seems largely unwilling to face the mounting evidence that Sarah and Jennifer Hart were likely abusive parents, and that one of them may have killed at least three of their children in an apparent murder-suicide.

    “If you had asked me two weeks ago I would have just ranted and raved and told you how wonderful and perfect they are,” said Arlain Ingeldew, who knew the Harts as fellow members of a community she described as a group of hundreds of people drawn together by music, who attended the same festivals. Arlain said that she would often camp alongside the Hart family at Harmony Park, an outdoor event venue next to Lake Geneva in southern Minnesota.

    CrimeOnline has reached out to several people believed to be part of this so-called community, of which little is known, and only Arlain agreed to speak.

    “The festivals we go to are all about the music and art and loving nature and loving each other,” she said. “And harmony.”

    They were just idolized for being the perfect family.”


    Devonte gained national attention in 2014 when he was photographed in a tearful embrace with Sgt. Bret Barnum of the Portland Police Department, during a demonstration in the city to support the anti-police brutality protests in Ferguson, Missouri.

    A relative of Sgt. Barnum’s told CrimeOnline last week that the officer had reached out to the family after his photograph with Devonte became a media fixture. But according to that relative, the Harts rebuffed his attempts to meet with them.

    http://www.crimeonline.com/2018/04/0...urder-suicide/


    --.

    That's so bizarre, the way they've chosen to characterize this. I've posted about having indirect connections to the Harts (we has mutual friends) and it was through this "community" of which the reporter writes. They make it sound like a weird cult. It's really not. It's just a bunch of people who seem to make the same festival/concert/reclaimation/Renaissance fairs/peace rallies rounds and wind up befriending each other because they spend time together. That's it. People have various jobs, different religious beliefs, they're different races and of economic statuses, and are of varying ages. I mean, you spend enough time going to these things and you meet other people. You go to several and you start seeing the same people over and over again. You become friends. You send each other FB friend requests and mail cards to each other on birthdays. That's pretty much it. Ha ha, it's not like there's even a FB "group" that's been created for any of it.

    Just here on this board I've connected with several different posters who have attended some of the same fairs and rallies as me and as the Harts. We've connected with each other like, hey, you too? Cool, we have stuff in common! But there's no secret handshake...unfortunately.

    I'm not really digging this cult-like way of looking at it.
    Find Brooke
    AGE: 19 HEIGHT: 5'1" WEIGHT: 110 lbs
    * Disappeared from a friend's house in Berea, Kentucky in June, 2013
    * Last text to a friend stated "I'm scared"
    * No other clues have been uncovered
    https://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ea-22-Jun-2013

  4. #1189
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    Another thought is could the investigators be excercising caution about releasing certain information in case Devonte and Hannah are still alive?

    Like full autopsy reports. Or, maybe not giving away certain contact info. Or, not releasing certain info found at the house.


  5. #1190
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    Does anyone have the link to the full dr oz show?

    Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


  6. #1191
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnlites View Post
    VISA is a credit card company that can be optioned by different banks. This is how you can have a Capitol One Visa, Chase Visa, etc. They would be able to track down the transactions either through Visa itself or through the individual banks. They could also have a bank card with a Visa (or MC) emblem, though this is slightly different. One is a line of credit, the other tied to a checking/savings account.

    It would be easy enough to figure any of this out. All LE needs is a social security number. When my dad died a couple of years ago we were able to have a whole list of every card he had, or had EVER had, within 5 minutes just by running a simple credit check.

    Oh, and while not everyone may choose to manage their bills online, the information is still there. With an account number you can access just about anything from wherever you are. Dad didn't even have a computer but I was still able to pull all of his accounts up online and see his previous transactions going back several years.
    She used a Safeway "club card" that was assigned to her name when she purchased the bananas along with other things that day. They track what you purchase so the police has that info. I wish they would share what was purchased that day.

    Thanks for all your posts mtnlites

    PS. I posted this many threads ago but I don't think the kids left the suv at all that trip. People could recognized Devonte, the family and/or they're a unique family and people would remember them- not good when you're or think you're on the run from police and/or CPS. I think they may have peed in the suv or on the side of the road very briefly, in an isolated area. Sad thought, could they have been drugged most of the time on that trip?

    That photo of Ciera makes my heart hurt and bring tears to my eyes. She is so beautiful and her smile speaks to me. I wish I could scoop her up and care for her myself.
    Last edited by Poppyflower; 04-18-2018 at 08:42 AM.

  7. #1192
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnlites View Post
    That's so bizarre, the way they've chosen to characterize this. I've posted about having indirect connections to the Harts (we has mutual friends) and it was through this "community" of which the reporter writes. They make it sound like a weird cult. It's really not. It's just a bunch of people who seem to make the same festival/concert/reclaimation/Renaissance fairs/peace rallies rounds and wind up befriending each other because they spend time together. That's it. People have various jobs, different religious beliefs, they're different races and of economic statuses, and are of varying ages. I mean, you spend enough time going to these things and you meet other people. You go to several and you start seeing the same people over and over again. You become friends. You send each other FB friend requests and mail cards to each other on birthdays. That's pretty much it. Ha ha, it's not like there's even a FB "group" that's been created for any of it.

    Just here on this board I've connected with several different posters who have attended some of the same fairs and rallies as me and as the Harts. We've connected with each other like, hey, you too? Cool, we have stuff in common! But there's no secret handshake...unfortunately.

    I'm not really digging this cult-like way of looking at it.
    Not so sure cult is the implication, but I know from my own original hippy days the deep distrust people held of certain institutions. -Days forged in resistance, music, and alternatives. And many forged an alternative lifestyle that they feel protective about. I know several completely off the grid. Of course we were always worried about getting busted, for MJ, too.

    And the woman who did speak dosen't describe it as a cult. My take away from the article is that it is very shocking, still. Why? Because the Hart tragedy is about as far away from harmony as it gets.

    And it could be that that shock, that sorrow, has made the Hart Tribe community feel betrayed, too? Jen Hart kept a public narrative and was well known in her circles. They were idolized by many of the comments I've read.


  8. #1193
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    Feb 2017
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    508
    Quote Originally Posted by human View Post
    If they got gas, they would have to pay with credit card or cash, of course. If they paid with cash, who would notice? If the kids were in the car, Jen would not stand out. But where is the camera info?

    If they paid by credit card, how do they find the credit card? Does Visa have a genral Visa office for instance even though there are a myriad of instituitons that issue Visa?

    Then there are bank cards and gas cards. It seems like a bog job to trace down.

    I would,think there is mail in the house or info on the computer that indicates what kid of credit cards they may have.

    It is possible, but hard to imagine they had that much cash on hand to travel. Of course, they xould,have withdrawn money and that would give no imdication of where they were.
    Just catching up. A thought I had. They had a big lot and a riding mower (we saw Devonte in a picture on one). Most people keep gas on hand for lawn mowers, etc. and for riding mowers and/or in rural areas, larger gas cans for bigger equipment. In a hurry, no real plan, maybe they took extra gas can(s) from home?

    The 2003 GMC Yukon had a fuel tank capacity of 32 gallons. How far it got on a tank would depend on city/hwy driving and the model. (See "Fuel & MPG" specs at Edmunds link below). My figures are all approximates. I'm using mileage average of the 3 Yukon XL models since we don't know which they had. So average 522 miles of highway travel on a full tank. The trip from Woodland, WA to Naselle, WA to Ft Bragg, CA was approximately 675 miles if they took the coast. If they started out with a full tank in the Yukon, they could've made it to approximately McKinleyville, CA (527 miles) before they ran out. Then from McKinleyville, CA to Ft Bragg = additional 148 miles along the coast.
    This is where the gas can(s) come into play. Two 5 gal gas cans would get them 10 gals or about 1/3 a tank of gas, approximately another 174 miles of travel. (522 miles per tank x .333 = 174) So McKinleyville to Ft Bragg with enough gas for abt 26 miles left. One 5 gal gas can would get them half that distance, or approximately another 87 miles, putting them about 61 miles short of Ft Bragg. Or, maybe they had a 5 gal can and a 2 gal can. If my estimates are correct 7 gallons total would put them right about Ft Bragg.
    I hope this makes sense. The above figures are all approximate, but I'm wondering if they had a full tank in the Yukon, took gas they had on hand at home with them, and traveled as far as their gas would take them, and that's why they ended up where they did? And that's why there's no evidence yet of them getting gas anywhere? And since no gas can(s) mentioned in debris, maybe they simply left the empty can(s) at the point they were used.

    Of course how far they got would depend on how much gas was in the car when they started and how much they took with them. But with a full tank and the right amount of extra gas cans this seems a plausible possibility? It's early and I'm low on caffeine so feel free to shoot holes in this theory.
    https://www.edmunds.com/gmc/yukon-xl...eatures-specs/

  9. #1194
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeighB View Post
    I think a word should be said about what that level of doubt is. I personally have many friends who have had CPS called on them for a range of "infractions," and not one of them was a child abuser. I know that because I know how the cases turned out, the evidence CPS submitted, what the judges ruled, etc. And I also know that every one of those children was subjected to many hours of invasive interviews that were inherently invasive, inappropriate, and even abusive in themselves, asking questions like, "Does your Daddy put his penis in your mouth?" EVERY CPS intervention does harm to a child, to parents, and to a family, and in every case the caller must ask, "What are the chances that the harm I'm calling about is more harmful than the likely CPS intervention?"

    Keep in mind when deciding whether to call, or to promote a National Child Abuse Registry, that the parents of the accused will have no Constitutional rights preserved. There will usually be no presumption of innocence, no right to a speedy trial by a jury of their peers, no due process, no right to face their accusers, no right to avoid self-incrimination. Even if a judge finds the case should be closed, they will likely have to take parenting classes and will have a "record" with CPS that will be held against them if any other kind person in the future calls "just to be safe," even if no charges are ever brought against them. Keep in mind that unjust taking of children happens *daily* and happens disproportionately to families of color and disadvantaged families. Keep in mind that for these families, being able to escape an unjust CPS worker by going to another county or state can be life-saving.

    In the Hart case, there's no question in my mind that the neighbors should have called. Certainly Texas, for as long as it continuing paying the Hart women, should have kept tabs on the medical and legal interactions with the children. But how about these cases, involving people I personally know?

    - Young single poor black mother had breastfeeding newborn, 3yo with CP, and several other children removed dramatically & traumatically off the school bus without even a hug good-bye on Halloween after the mother took the 3yo to the ER for feeding problems that her doctors already knew she had. Forced to sign TPR on 3yo to get the other kids back, 3yo adopted out to Russian couple, never saw her 3yo again.

    - Kids playing in front yard barefoot in the summer. Yes, CPS was really called over this. Yes, they really came out and did invasive interviews, trying to search the house and look into every nook & cranny of their lives to find some kind of abuse somewhere.

    - Child accidentally hurts himself; CPS spends 8 hours interrogating children, trying to convince them to give up some dirt on sexual and physical abuse by their parents.

    - Parents leave restaurant in two cars and accidentally leave one child behind. Dad is arrested and kept in jail overnight.

    - Poor black child lives in motel with his mother. Drug dealers and prostitutes also live there. Mother keeps child fed, clothed well, in school, doing his homework, and completely away from the criminals at the complex. CPS puts the child in foster care.

    Google Justina Pelletier, Sammy Nikolaev, the Stanley family, the Kenny A lawsuit, and the $10M Orange County had to pay out when CPS workers lied under oath about one of their cases.

    I have many more I could list. CPS intervention is *not* benign. It always harms children (at a minimum by the invasive interrogation and the undermining of trust in their parents). Sometimes the harm done by CPS is less than the harm they're escaping, and thank God they're around for that. Sometimes it's not. But every time someone calls them for a child playing unsupervised in his own upper class suburban yard, the caller and the workers who bother to respond to such trivial accusations are taking resources away from the very children who so desperately need intervention the most. Calling CPS is serious business. Not calling is serious business. Think, reflect, weigh.
    As a former reunification worker for MA DCF, a lot of things you said have merit. The child playing outside should have been screened out without a second thought. And unless the mother of the child with CP was not adhering to medical plans and interventions that was wrong the others I understand the reason for interviews and meetings. Here it is very difficult to remove children from a home, it requires a court order and specific examples of abuse with immediate danger to the child. Each state has a different structure and framework so your experiences would not have been able to come to fruition in other states.
    For example, here I had a child who was being denied food and water in front of myself and his IHT team. He was also expected to clean with dangerous chemicals and all but locked in his room due to what Dad called "homicidal behavioral tendancies." The IHT team and myself saw bruises and filed several times, 9 in 2 weeks between us. His school filed due to him stealing food from others. The state didn't even come out, we were told there wasn't enough proof to open a case. Eight months later that child was admitted to the hospital unresponsive with major bruising, malnutrion and scarring and burns from caustic cleaners. In July it will be three years that he has been in a coma.
    While I don't disagree that you should weigh the decision heavily, I think that there were several breakdowns in CPS where you live. Any mandated reporter training teaches you how not to further traumatize the child.and unless a report states that a child is sexually abuses there should be no questions about that during intake. Often here, especially on cases that end up screened out, the worker plays with the child or children and talks to them normally to discern information. Also, our social workers often have to have a psychology background

  10. #1195
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    This thread is very long. I'm going to work on a new thread, which should be ready in about 10 minutes.

  11. #1196
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    Quote Originally Posted by PearlClutcher View Post
    I believe that they were VERY angry with the children for being ungrateful. I believe that it is highly possible that a big discussion took place after CPS left and Sarah arrived home. It's possible that they may have hurt one or more of the kids, while still at home, after finding out that the kids felt mistreated.

    Another possibility is that Sarah and Jen stayed up most of the night (after CPS stopped by) and hatched a plan regarding what they should do because they basically had lost control of those kids. They already had a rough 2017 according to Jen. Since the kids were unhappy and the parents were possibly stressed from so many things going wrong, they decide to leave early in the morning and stake out a place for them to have an "accident".
    From the MSM reports by the neighbour in the first thread, on the Friday, Jen came back from work (I didn't think she worked? ) but didn't answer the door to CPS. Waited for Sarah to come back from work then all of them left in the car leaving chickens and pet at home. So they all left Friday after work.

  12. #1197
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    This thread is closed. Please continue the discussion in Thread #6.

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