Similar Crime Scenes

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roseofsharon

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I'm not sure if I have all these facts right, but on Cold Case Files some time ago (I think this was the show), young girls had been abducted, raped, and found with the garrotte tied around their necks. I am not sure if the killer was caught, but at that time, I wondered if possibly there was some connection with this killer and Jonbenet's murder. What is this type of knot used for under normal circumstances? Maybe if they look into where this knot would be used most, it may provide a lead. From the picture, it looks like it may take some time to make unless you use these all the time. Please let me know your thoughts on this.

This post is only my opinion.
 
Ooooh, Roseofsharon......Keep going, you've got my attention. Very interesting! I don't have anything to add, but I eagerly await responses! We've got some very smart posters here...

By the way, WELCOME TO WEBSLEUTHS!!!!!:blowkiss: :D :D :D
 
roseofsharon said:
I'm not sure if I have all these facts right, but on Cold Case Files some time ago (I think this was the show), young girls had been abducted, raped, and found with the garrotte tied around their necks. I am not sure if the killer was caught, but at that time, I wondered if possibly there was some connection with this killer and Jonbenet's murder. What is this type of knot used for under normal circumstances? Maybe if they look into where this knot would be used most, it may provide a lead. From the picture, it looks like it may take some time to make unless you use these all the time. Please let me know your thoughts on this.

This post is only my opinion.
Click to expand...
Would you have any names or identifiying info about those cases, so that I might research them out? I would assume they were cases considered related to each other.

Few differences to point out:

In the Jonbenet case, the crime was carried out inside a home with 3 people sleeping in, rather than abducting the victim elsewhere. Were the dog there that night...an intruder would also have had that to worry about.

The garrotte, by definition in the Jonbenet case, is not a true garrote...it seems likely it was meant to look like one though (not done very well though). The way the "garrotte" on Jonbenet would have had to be used in itself is opposite to how a garrotte works.
Also...I believe garrotting results in the victim's trachea being crushed...Jonbenet's was not.
As of such...in the cases you mentioned...it would be important to see if true garrottes were being used.
 
I remember a case but can't remember any names. A young girl around age 6-9 was taken from her home, murdered, and left outside an apartment complex. The girl's panties were laid over to the side, I believe an extra pair. I thought this was similar to JonBenet's case but I just can't remember if this little girl was strangled or not.
 
You've got my attention too~

I'd like to know how many people even knew what this thing was until it emerged in this case. I know I never heard of one. It does make me think of something they may have used to kill chickens or turkeys on farms years ago.
 
I'm also interested, but please remember hallmarks of JonBenet's case are what said it aside from other crimes that appear similar - such as the fact that she wasn't raped (at least not in the traditional penile penetration manner) and she was not abducted from her home.

Child predators simply do not risk being caught by assaulting a child in her own home with her parents present - they grab the kid and they clear out as fast as possible to a place they have ready. Once they get the child somewhere else, then they can relax a little and take their time...but a child predator never stays in the child's house with the child for hours while other family members are present.

As for the sexual assault, what happened to JonBenet is also not the average rape scene. Most child rapists do not go so far as to clean up the child, redress her, and tuck her into a nice blanket with her favorite nightgown nearby. They take them, use them, and dump them in a location they think they can't be traced to. They certainly would not go upstairs to the child's bedroom and look around for a pair of underwear after they molested and killed the child.

This whole thing is just insane. There has never been another crime against a child like this one, and I pray there never is again. Here's what the FBI CASKU unit had to say:

As part of the Boulder police's investigation, they accepted an invitation from the FBI to put on a full presentation of the case to the FBI's Child Abduction and Serial Killer Unit based at Quantico, Va. As Thomas recounts in his book, over 20 CASKU team members, including hair and fiber experts, attended the August 1997 briefing. Police investigators reviewed the autopsy results, and crime scene photos. In turn, CASKU agents reported that of the more than 1,700 murdered children they had studied since the 1960s, there was only one case in which the victim was a female under the age of 12, who had been murdered in her home by strangulation, with sexual assault and a ransom note present: JonBenet Ramsey. The agents told the Boulder investigators that while it might be possible that someone broke into the house that day, it was not very probable. The staging of the crime, the evidence presented to them by the Boulder police, and the totality of the case pointed in one direction: This was not the act of an intruder.
 
This is an excellent thought, what the (prusic?) knot is NORMALLY used for.

Hope you find out. I sure don't know. It would indeed be a great clue. All the other stuff we've discussed in other threads, right?
 
Eagle1 said:
This is an excellent thought, what the (prusic?) knot is NORMALLY used for.

Hope you find out. I sure don't know. It would indeed be a great clue. All the other stuff we've discussed in other threads, right?
Click to expand...
Here is what the wiki says about prusik knots:



The prusik knot or prusik hitch is a friction hitch knot most commonly used by climbers for ascending. It is named after Karl Prusik, an Austrian mountaineer who introduced this knot in 1931. Rescue teams such as Swiftwater rescue use a Prusik knot as a 'pulley tender' hitch, to hold a line taut while tensioning a highline for a Tyrolean traverse, or in boat-on-tether and similar rescue operations.

The Prusik knot offers a way to ascend on a climbing rope using slings, smaller diameter rope, or cord. The knot slides freely along the rope but will grip firmly when weighted.
Click to expand...
There are some pictures of the knot at the above link as well.
 
WOW -- thanks everyone for your feedback!! It is all very interesting and informative.

Regarding the Cold Case Files (not positive about the show) episode, I can't remember what state it happened in, but eastern I think and there were three beautiful Hispanic children murdered, ranging in ages from 5 to 15 (my recollection about age is not that good). Also, the word "garrotte" was used to describe these crime scenes. This is what really caught my attention, thinking back to JB crime scene.

It would be be interesting to know if they were the true garotte or a makeshift.
 
Nuisanceposter said:
I'm also interested, but please remember hallmarks of JonBenet's case are what said it aside from other crimes that appear similar - such as the fact that she wasn't raped (at least not in the traditional penile penetration manner) and she was not abducted from her home.

Child predators simply do not risk being caught by assaulting a child in her own home with her parents present - they grab the kid and they clear out as fast as possible to a place they have ready. Once they get the child somewhere else, then they can relax a little and take their time...but a child predator never stays in the child's house with the child for hours while other family members are present.

As for the sexual assault, what happened to JonBenet is also not the average rape scene. Most child rapists do not go so far as to clean up the child, redress her, and tuck her into a nice blanket with her favorite nightgown nearby. They take them, use them, and dump them in a location they think they can't be traced to. They certainly would not go upstairs to the child's bedroom and look around for a pair of underwear after they molested and killed the child.

This whole thing is just insane. There has never been another crime against a child like this one, and I pray there never is again. Here's what the FBI CASKU unit had to say:

As part of the Boulder police's investigation, they accepted an invitation from the FBI to put on a full presentation of the case to the FBI's Child Abduction and Serial Killer Unit based at Quantico, Va. As Thomas recounts in his book, over 20 CASKU team members, including hair and fiber experts, attended the August 1997 briefing. Police investigators reviewed the autopsy results, and crime scene photos. In turn, CASKU agents reported that of the more than 1,700 murdered children they had studied since the 1960s, there was only one case in which the victim was a female under the age of 12, who had been murdered in her home by strangulation, with sexual assault and a ransom note present: JonBenet Ramsey. The agents told the Boulder investigators that while it might be possible that someone broke into the house that day, it was not very probable. The staging of the crime, the evidence presented to them by the Boulder police, and the totality of the case pointed in one direction: This was not the act of an intruder.
Click to expand...
~~~~~~~~~~~
Nuisanceposter, I have never seen this FBI information. Thank you for posting it. It just makes my 'every possible theory' which I just posted (that someone who HATED John Ramsey actually 'staged' the perfect crime scene with the intent to pin it on the Ramseys)...sound even more absurd. The statistics listed above don't lie... Between you and SuperDave and my rereading Ramsey interviews, I'm bouncing all over the field and over the fence and then back again. I think I may need to stop posting and just lurk for the next ten years....;)
 
Rose--I think maybe you are thinking of BTK and the Oteros?
 
I for one don't remember hearing of this case, would love to hear more about it. All three children in one family were killed? Did they feel the parents did it?
 
Eagle1 said:
I for one don't remember hearing of this case, would love to hear more about it. All three children in one family were killed? Did they feel the parents did it?
Click to expand...
No it was BTK who did it and they cought him as he was still taunting the police years after.
 
I'm a first-time poster, although I've been reading here forever! Unfortunately I'm also on my way out the door so I can't take the time I'd wanted to with this first post. Hope this is new material. In December 1985 the Klutz Book of Knots by Cassady was published. It's still in print and it's a fabulous book for kids. I bought it for the heck of it for myself (decades past childhood) and noticed that one of the knots they walk you through is the Prusik Knot. I bet that book was a big hit over the years and could've lying around anyone's house. I really hope this hasn't been thoroughly discussed before!
 
SleuthingSleuth said:
Would you have any names or identifiying info about those cases, so that I might research them out? I would assume they were cases considered related to each other.

Few differences to point out:

In the Jonbenet case, the crime was carried out inside a home with 3 people sleeping in, rather than abducting the victim elsewhere. Were the dog there that night...an intruder would also have had that to worry about.

The garrotte, by definition in the Jonbenet case, is not a true garrote...it seems likely it was meant to look like one though (not done very well though). The way the "garrotte" on Jonbenet would have had to be used in itself is opposite to how a garrotte works.
Also...I believe garrotting results in the victim's trachea being crushed...Jonbenet's was not.
As of such...in the cases you mentioned...it would be important to see if true garrottes were being used.
Click to expand...

SleuthingSleuth, i'm sure the dog was at the barnhills that fateful night. In fact the dog...forget its name was mainly living at the barnhills anyways, although i cant quite remember the reasoning behind it. Anyways the dog was defintly not there. Even Nedra said that the 'intruder' must have known the ramseys to have the intimate detail of the dog not being home that particualr night.
 
Bear with me here...

If I were an intruder breaking into the Ramsey home with the intent of doing something sexual with JonBenet, namely using a garrote, I would have it fashioned before I entered the home. I want to be in and out as quickly as possible to avoid getting caught.

1. Why would I spend the time to fashion my own garrote in the basement using supplies that may not even be around?

2. Why would I spend the time to write a 3 page ransom note, especially if no kidnapping were to take place?

I think PR killed JonBenet and had to improvise. She knocked her daugther unconscious with a blow to the back of the head, thought she had killed her, and when she began strangling her is when JonBenet actually died. She staged the sexual abuse because surely no mother would do that to their own child, right? Point the fingers away from her, so to speak.
 
Paladin said:
Bear with me here...

If I were an intruder breaking into the Ramsey home with the intent of doing something sexual with JonBenet, namely using a garrote, I would have it fashioned before I entered the home. I want to be in and out as quickly as possible to avoid getting caught.

1. Why would I spend the time to fashion my own garrote in the basement using supplies that may not even be around?

2. Why would I spend the time to write a 3 page ransom note, especially if no kidnapping were to take place?

I think PR killed JonBenet and had to improvise. She knocked her daugther unconscious with a blow to the back of the head, thought she had killed her, and when she began strangling her is when JonBenet actually died. She staged the sexual abuse because surely no mother would do that to their own child, right? Point the fingers away from her, so to speak.
Click to expand...

An intruder wouldn't stage it to look like an intruder, Paladin. You hit it.
 
Might we get some new thought by bringing up still more similar but not exactly the same other cases?

Someone often says they know a lot of women who've lost it and killed their children in a similar way. You may be right. Will you give us examples? Do you mean like Susan Smith and, probably, the latest, Trenton Duckett's mom?
 
"Someone often says they know a lot of women who've lost it and killed their children in a similar way. You may be right. Will you give us examples? Do you mean like Susan Smith and, probably, the latest, Trenton Duckett's mom?"

That would be me! And yes, I do mean like them!
 
SuperDave said:
"Someone often says they know a lot of women who've lost it and killed their children in a similar way. You may be right. Will you give us examples? Do you mean like Susan Smith and, probably, the latest, Trenton Duckett's mom?"

That would be me! And yes, I do mean like them!
Click to expand...
There was a case near San Diego in 1998 where a girl was killed in her bedroom while she slept.Her whole family was there and right away they thought it was her 10 year old brother.I think the book about it I read was "Shattered Justice".It ended up being an intruder done it.
 
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