A Comparable Case to the Ramsey Case?

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SleuthingSleuth

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http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/14.htm

Finally found some info about that sexual assault case that happened in Boulder 1997 and was compared with Jonbenet's murder.

In my own gauging, parts of that case would fit with certain IDI ideas...though this case was missing the intricacies and oddities of the Ramsey case. (Really, if it was plainly an intruder who did it, the Ramseys would have no reason to lie about certain things)

In the 1997 case the intruder apparently entered through an unlocked door before the alarm was set and waited 4 or so hours in the house before making his attack.
In the Ramsey case, if there was an intruder his POE would be unknown. All of the doors were locked...and I don't believe anyone went through the basement window. The alarm was not set in the Ramsey house, though an intruder wouldn't know either way.
So...either he got in somehow earlier in the day, was let in by someone, or had a key.

I do not know if any similar crimes to the 1997 one continued to pop up, or if the perp in that case was ever caught.
 
SleuthingSleuth said:
http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/14.htm

Finally found some info about that sexual assault case that happened in Boulder 1997 and was compared with Jonbenet's murder.

In my own gauging, parts of that case would fit with certain IDI ideas...though this case was missing the intricacies and oddities of the Ramsey case. (Really, if it was plainly an intruder who did it, the Ramseys would have no reason to lie about certain things)

In the 1997 case the intruder apparently entered through an unlocked door before the alarm was set and waited 4 or so hours in the house before making his attack.
In the Ramsey case, if there was an intruder his POE would be unknown. All of the doors were locked...and I don't believe anyone went through the basement window. The alarm was not set in the Ramsey house, though an intruder wouldn't know either way.
So...either he got in somehow earlier in the day, was let in by someone, or had a key.

I do not know if any similar crimes to the 1997 one continued to pop up, or if the perp in that case was ever caught.
Click to expand...
Great find SleuthingSleuth. It's amazing that none of the investigators on the Ramsey case were even made aware of this case, and should we say that, it is, or isn't, very surprising that the owner of the Dance Studio wasn't interviewed about either case. The Boulder PD and the D.A. had a very bad case of myopia....almost a criminal case of myopia.
 
It kind of makes you wonder how often things like this happen in the field of law enforcement, and the justice system. Where egos can, and do, become so large, and tightly wrapped around a personal decision, regarding someone's probable guilt, that they absolutely refuse to see it as any other possibility. It happens.

I watched a death penalty discussion on C-SPAN last night and they spoke of very similar instances, where an inncocent man has been prosecuted, and kept in prison, and also where a guilty man was allowed to go free to kill again, simply because of a redneck ego that refused to relent. Things, as stupid as that, get in the way of successful law enforcement.
 
Buzzm1 said:
It kind of makes you wonder how often things like this happen in the field of law enforcement, and the justice system. Where egos can, and do, become so large, and tightly wrapped around a personal decision, regarding someone's probably guilt, that they absolutely refuse to see it as any other possibility. It happens.

.
Click to expand...
You're right, Buzz. It absolutey happens, more than anyone would care to admit.
 
SleuthingSleuth said:
http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/14.htm

In the 1997 case the intruder apparently entered through an unlocked door before the alarm was set and waited 4 or so hours in the house before making his attack.
In the Ramsey case, if there was an intruder his POE would be unknown. All of the doors were locked...and I don't believe anyone went through the basement window. The alarm was not set in the Ramsey house, though an intruder wouldn't know either way.
So...either he got in somehow earlier in the day, was let in by someone, or had a key.

I do not know if any similar crimes to the 1997 one continued to pop up, or if the perp in that case was ever caught.
Click to expand...
This is a wonderful find, SleuthingSleuth!! I have never seen anyone post this information here before----WOW.

I also think it's possible that the perp was part of the general public that came to the Open House, or whatever you call it--The Ramsey house was part of a "tour" called the "Christmas House" or something like that. I read here that JonBenet wasn't at the house at the time, but I read elsewhere that she WAS, and that everytime the doorbell rang, Patsy, Burke and JonBenet greeted each guest as they came to the door. It said they all had matching outfits on. Maybe somebody unlatched a window then???
 
that's creepy...but don't child molesters usually like children of a certain age?
Maybe if it's the same guy he thought of Jon Benet as older because of all the make up/costumes she wore?
 
SleuthingSleuth---

I hope you don't mind, but I copied & pasted your link on another thread here. I believe it is THAT important---I gave you credit for finding this info....

Thanks again...
 
This is very interesting. Since I am an IDI, I find it especially interesting.

I personally don't think getting though locked doors or windows is a problem for professional criminals, so maybe the JBR intruder came ealry, maybe not. I can see it going both ways in my mind.

Maybe some of you recall the murder of Valerie Percy,daughter of Senator Charles Percy in '66, which is still unsolved although it could and should be. This was where I grew up and i lived not very far from the Percy home. Anyway, the night before she was murdered, we had an intruder in our home, he crept through the second floor while we all slept. My father inadvertantly scared him away, he heard someone in my mother's dressing room. He left through a window.There tool markings on the screen, a footrpint in the flowerbed and a bent gutter where he hung to drop from the 2 nd floor. It was ultimately determined that our intruder was most likely the same intruder that killed Valerie Percy. There were many simialrities and at least the LE made that connection. The break in at our home helped further the investigation, but still the murder has never been solved.
Like Boulder,the town of Kenilworth probably had very few, if any, murders so this was something LE was just not used to handling.
That unsolved case often reminds me of JBR only in that it really should have been solved, but the LE just wasn't equipped to handle a case like this. IMO.At least they checked out our connection for simialrities throughly.

A case like the one referenced should have risen right to the top for the JBR investigation and that is a real concern.



ETA: I should also add that the Percy family went into seclusion in California almost immediately after the murder, even though the murder was in Illinois. So, innocent people do sometimes leave town right away after their child is murdered. They relayed any information to Illinois investigators through their "associates" that is, not personally.FWIW
 
There are some similarities but there are also some differences.

This other girl was a good bit older than JonBenet. There's a big difference between a 6 year old girl and a 14 year old girl.

It would be relatively easy to learn something as obvious as the name of the child you want to attack. If he'd been in the house for four hours, he had plenty of time to figure out the teenage girl's name. That's not the same as asking for a ransom the same as the dad's bonus that year and referring to his Southern common sense and calling him a fat cat - both of which were known to be jokes in the Ramsey family. That shows a higher level of intimacy than just wandering around in the house for a few hours.

This perp also did not kill the child he attacked - perhaps because he had been interrupted by the mother, perhaps he never meant to. Did he bring any supplies with him? Cord, tape, stun gun, pineapple?

And there's the pesky issue of the fibers from Patsy's clothing being tied the knot strangling JonBenet, and in the paint tray, and on the back of the tape...all of the contradicting stories the Ramseys have told, and their lack of cooperation and hindering investigation.

There's barely any comparison, in my opinion, unless you subscribe to IDI with the perp entering the house when the Rs were away...and how does one manage to not leave any forensic evidence while in the house all that time?
 
With regard to the original post, look at this video on youtube.com

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nllcQW9QzC0

Be patient it takes a couple of minutes to get to the bit I am referring to, the entire video is only about 5 min in length, the first part is about the DNA found on the panties,

The second bit talks about the crime mentioned above (?). A little girl that took a dance class with JB was attacked by an intruder that was hiding in their home waiting. The BPD never followed this up despite there being evidence of the girl being assaulted in the same way JB was, never made a composite sketch despite the mother having confronted the intruder, etc.

Does anyone have the full story about this or know where to find the
full broadcast?, this particular youtube is just a preview, I would like to
hear the full Erin Moriarty report.
 
Nuisanceposter said:
There's barely any comparison, in my opinion, unless you subscribe to IDI with the perp entering the house when the Rs were away...and how does one manage to not leave any forensic evidence while in the house all that time?
Click to expand...
I think that although there are differences in the cases, there are also too many similarities that cannot be ignored.

* A child sexually assaulted. Sure there is a big difference in age, but 14 is still a child, IMO. I know some people say that sexual predators only like a particular age of a victim, but I think they can take what they can get.

* Happened in Boulder-2 miles away from Ramsey home
* Perp was an unknown intruder
* No signs of forced entry
* Perp LAY IN WAIT in the home for 4 hours prior to assaulting victim

It is mind boggling to me that most of investigators in the Ramsey case didn't even learn about this crime until August of 2000!!!! Does this LE not even communicate with each other?

As far as not leaving any forensic evidence after being in the Ramsey house all the time, it doesn't appear that the perp left any forensic evidence that would identify him in the other girls house either, because it's still unsolved. And we don't know what would have happened in the 14 year olds case if the mother hadn't woken up and interrupted him. Thank God she did!
 
Well, julianne, some of us RDIs don't believe that the vaginal injury JonBenet received was sexually motivated. That changes the crime a bit.

Some of us don't believe a perp laid in wait for hours for the family to come home either. That also changes the crime.

In RDI, there's no sign of forced entry because the perp lived in the house. A definite difference.

No forensic evidence? Didn't that article say the attacker assaulted the girl orally? There should have been saliva if that was the case. There were no fingerprints anywhere, no fiber evidence found?

And what about the fiber evidence implicating the Rs? What about their contradicting stories?
 
JBean said:
This is very interesting. Since I am an IDI, I find it especially interesting.

I personally don't think getting though locked doors or windows is a problem for professional criminals, so maybe the JBR intruder came ealry, maybe not. I can see it going both ways in my mind.

Maybe some of you recall the murder of Valerie Percy,daughter of Senator Charles Percy in '66, which is still unsolved although it could and should be. This was where I grew up and i lived not very far from the Percy home. Anyway, the night before she was murdered, we had an intruder in our home, he crept through the second floor while we all slept. My father inadvertantly scared him away, he heard someone in my mother's dressing room. He left through a window.There tool markings on the screen, a footrpint in the flowerbed and a bent gutter where he hung to drop from the 2 nd floor. It was ultimately determined that our intruder was most likely the same intruder that killed Valerie Percy. There were many simialrities and at least the LE made that connection. The break in at our home helped further the investigation, but still the murder has never been solved.
Like Boulder,the town of Kenilworth probably had very few, if any, murders so this was something LE was just not used to handling.
That unsolved case often reminds me of JBR only in that it really should have been solved, but the LE just wasn't equipped to handle a case like this. IMO.At least they checked out our connection for simialrities throughly.

A case like the one referenced should have risen right to the top for the JBR investigation and that is a real concern.



ETA: I should also add that the Percy family went into seclusion in California almost immediately after the murder, even though the murder was in Illinois. So, innocent people do sometimes leave town right away after their child is murdered. They relayed any information to Illinois investigators through their "associates" that is, not personally.FWIW
Click to expand...
The Percy case had a tremendous effect on me because as I recall I was her age at the time and someone got in thru a sliding glass door and they never found the killer. I would cry in the bathroom with the door locked which didn't have a window big enough for someone to climb in, and fall asleep. I didn't even tell my parents of my fear. I suddenly didn't believe there was any security for anyone in their homes. I still don't yet millions of people live in houses with sliding glass doors and don't cry themselves to sleep in fear. Eventually you become like everyone else, and just put it out of your mind. But at the time it was just horrific.
 
julianne said:
I think that although there are differences in the cases, there are also too many similarities that cannot be ignored.

* A child sexually assaulted. Sure there is a big difference in age, but 14 is still a child, IMO. I know some people say that sexual predators only like a particular age of a victim, but I think they can take what they can get.

* Happened in Boulder-2 miles away from Ramsey home
* Perp was an unknown intruder
* No signs of forced entry
* Perp LAY IN WAIT in the home for 4 hours prior to assaulting victim

It is mind boggling to me that most of investigators in the Ramsey case didn't even learn about this crime until August of 2000!!!! Does this LE not even communicate with each other?

As far as not leaving any forensic evidence after being in the Ramsey house all the time, it doesn't appear that the perp left any forensic evidence that would identify him in the other girls house either, because it's still unsolved. And we don't know what would have happened in the 14 year olds case if the mother hadn't woken up and interrupted him. Thank God she did!
Click to expand...
and she attended the same dance school as Jon Benet, but for the RDI's, these are mere coincidences. Don't let facts get in their way.

Boulder, sexual assault, perp snuck in the home, and lay in wait for hours, victim attended same dance studio as Jon Benet. Let's look at the differences?? That's the Boulder PD version of the Keystone Cops. Don't let the little things get in the way????
 
Nuisanceposter said:
This other girl was a good bit older than JonBenet. There's a big difference between a 6 year old girl and a 14 year old girl.
Click to expand...
I noted that too...it is a big age difference. If this guy from 1997 had tried it again elsewhere...it would tell us more about what his preference really was...but I don't know of any.

Nuisanceposter said:
It would be relatively easy to learn something as obvious as the name of the child you want to attack. If he'd been in the house for four hours, he had plenty of time to figure out the teenage girl's name. That's not the same as asking for a ransom the same as the dad's bonus that year and referring to his Southern common sense and calling him a fat cat - both of which were known to be jokes in the Ramsey family. That shows a higher level of intimacy than just wandering around in the house for a few hours.
Click to expand...
The RN is a big difference, indeed. The RN is very personally worded towards John...unless a "possible Ramsey intruder" knew John...a letter from such a person wouldn't be so personal.

Nuisanceposter said:
This perp also did not kill the child he attacked - perhaps because he had been interrupted by the mother, perhaps he never meant to. Did he bring any supplies with him? Cord, tape, stun gun, pineapple?
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's a throw up whether the 1997 guy intended to kill his victim or not...he was interrupted so we'll never know.

A big stake in the ground of the Ramsey case are things that I feel the Ramseys were lying about (conflicting stories with Burke, pineapple, etc.). If they were innocent they wouldn't lie. So, if in fact they were lying...that itself is telling.

Nuisanceposter said:
And there's the pesky issue of the fibers from Patsy's clothing being tied the knot strangling JonBenet, and in the paint tray, and on the back of the tape...all of the contradicting stories the Ramseys have told, and their lack of cooperation and hindering investigation.
Click to expand...
Granted as well...the fibers are a big kicker.

The Ramseys' behavior is another problem for me as well.

Nuisanceposter said:
There's barely any comparison, in my opinion, unless you subscribe to IDI with the perp entering the house when the Rs were away...and how does one manage to not leave any forensic evidence while in the house all that time?
Click to expand...
If it weren't for the various hiccups and oddities in the Ramsey case, I'd put both cases on level standing.

In the 1997 case, the perp did leave saliva on the victim (oral assault)...unfortunately I don't believe DNA could be culled from it for some reason.
As for fibers...no idea...so few details.
 
aspidistra said:
The Percy case had a tremendous effect on me because as I recall I was her age at the time and someone got in thru a sliding glass door and they never found the killer. I would cry in the bathroom with the door locked which didn't have a window big enough for someone to climb in, and fall asleep. I didn't even tell my parents of my fear. I suddenly didn't believe there was any security for anyone in their homes. I still don't yet millions of people live in houses with sliding glass doors and don't cry themselves to sleep in fear. Eventually you become like everyone else, and just put it out of your mind. But at the time it was just horrific.
Click to expand...
Yes, I believe he used a glass cutter.
Not to stray too far off topic here, but that case had an effect on me as well. I was younger, but knowing that the murderer of Valerie Percy was in my home while I slept, gave me many a sleepless night.
 
JBean said:
This is very interesting. Since I am an IDI, I find it especially interesting.

I personally don't think getting though locked doors or windows is a problem for professional criminals, so maybe the JBR intruder came ealry, maybe not. I can see it going both ways in my mind.

Maybe some of you recall the murder of Valerie Percy,daughter of Senator Charles Percy in '66, which is still unsolved although it could and should be. This was where I grew up and i lived not very far from the Percy home. Anyway, the night before she was murdered, we had an intruder in our home, he crept through the second floor while we all slept. My father inadvertantly scared him away, he heard someone in my mother's dressing room. He left through a window.There tool markings on the screen, a footrpint in the flowerbed and a bent gutter where he hung to drop from the 2 nd floor. It was ultimately determined that our intruder was most likely the same intruder that killed Valerie Percy. There were many simialrities and at least the LE made that connection. The break in at our home helped further the investigation, but still the murder has never been solved.
Like Boulder,the town of Kenilworth probably had very few, if any, murders so this was something LE was just not used to handling.
That unsolved case often reminds me of JBR only in that it really should have been solved, but the LE just wasn't equipped to handle a case like this. IMO.At least they checked out our connection for simialrities throughly.

A case like the one referenced should have risen right to the top for the JBR investigation and that is a real concern.



ETA: I should also add that the Percy family went into seclusion in California almost immediately after the murder, even though the murder was in Illinois. So, innocent people do sometimes leave town right away after their child is murdered. They relayed any information to Illinois investigators through their "associates" that is, not personally.FWIW
Click to expand...
Wow JBean, that was a close call. Speaking for all of us, I am certainly glad you are around to relate that story to us. It provides you great insight into how easily an intruder can slip into a home.
 
Buzzm1 said:
and she attended the same dance school as Jon Benet, but for the RDI's, these are mere coincidences. Don't let facts get in their way.

Boulder, sexual assault, perp snuck in the home, and lay in wait for hours, victim attended same dance studio as Jon Benet. Let's look at the differences?? That's the Boulder PD version of the Keystone Cops. Don't let the little things get in the way????
Click to expand...
If I were an investigator, the fact the 1997 girl went to the same dance school as Jonbenet (the crime happened in September 1997), would have made me at least examine the case, since that is a red flag.

I am not sure how far this case was pursued on its own merits (that is, without tying it with Jonbenet)...wasn't much evidence to work with of course...but the mother did see the intruder (evidently he didn't wear a mask)...and I would suppose the girl naturally saw him too.
 
Buzzm1 said:
Wow JBean, that was a close call. Speaking for all of us, I am certainly glad you are around to relate that story to us. It provides you great insight into how easily an intruder can slip into a home.
Click to expand...
why thank you Buzz. Glad to be here to tell it. I have 7 brothers and sisters so we probably would have attacked the guy anyway.
I think breaking into homes without leaving any clues is nothing for the pros. Moreover, I believe if the R's were indeed trying to cover up to make it look like an intruder, they would have made a very very obvious point of entry for their manufactured intruder. I think this would have been the first thing on their cover up list. Clear forced entry location. basic cover up 101, IMO. Ransom notes are in a more advanced course lol.
 
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