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  1. #2776
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoldBear View Post
    Welcome to WS. We all have our own slant on this case so you'll get many different opinions. The latest information came from James Kolar, Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped Jonbenet? It's available on Amazon and Kindle. Kolar went to work for the Boulder police department after the case had been botched. Steve Thomas' book is a great reference and touches on many blunders of the case. Superdave, one of Websleuth's most knowledgeable sources, wrote a book that covered much of the screw-ups and politics that happened behind the scenes. It's called An Angel Betrayed and Superdave is always available here for questions and corrections. One of the best web references we have is http://www.acandyrose.com/. It is one of the most extensive references online; although, you'll have to navigate down so here's the link the the index: http://www.acandyrose.com/s-Flight755-15thStreet.htm. I've got to warn you, this is a very deep rabbit hole. It contains the autopsy reports, photos and the transcripts from John and Patsy's interviews.

    I won't answer all your questions and I hope others will chime in.



    I'm not on point about who went to bed first. I think John said Patsy did, but I don't trust the source. So there's a problem. You're right about the timeline when they woke-up. They said John woke-up first and was already in his bathroom when Patsy woke up. Their timeline is messed up and not believable.



    This is one that I don't think an insomniac will ever understand. Someone who doesn't have problems sleeping can take 25 mg of benadryl or one melatonin tablet to sleep. I'll never understand that. It would never work for me.



    DOI is partly a work of fiction. There's no reliable timeline in it either (if you've ever gone into the detail to get a timeline). It's partly a fairytale about what John and Patsy wanted the wrold to think about them.



    Patsy went through radical chemo treatments. Numbness in her hands and feet. Chemo can also create a fuzzy memory often referred to a chemo brain. Prescription drugs were small compared to what she survived.

    I'm not aware of any medications John was taking; although, I wouldn't be surprised. Beth's death really tore him up. He painted a quick recovery in DOI knowing that Beth was with God and so that gave him hope. If you would believe DOI, he would have recovered from losing a child in less than 2 weeks. Nope. Her death caused him to question his faith in God. No parent recovers from their child's death. John and Patsy couldn't hide that.



    This is the easiest questions you could ever ask. Patsy's side of the family was based on a powerful matriarchy. The roots of the family were based on Southern society. No matter what happens in the home, the neighbors (and the outside world) should never know about it. Never. Nothing should ever bring shame on the family and social standing is more important than life itself.

    As for the transcripts, I believe that John and Patsy careful divvied the responsibilities for household items. If something was more Patsy's responsibility, John would simply say he didn't know anything about it and you'd have to ask Patsy. If something was John's responsibility Patsy would say it was John's responsibility. This is merely legal advice about what they should and shouldn't answer. It keeps them from having conflicting answers.



    She was no housekeeper, but she told the housekeeper what to do. This is Lou Smit and really messed-up logic. Lou focused on that bed for his kidnapper under the bed theory. When looking for a missing child, I don't know anyone who wouldn't think to look under the bed. If you're looking at JAR's room, another question is why video tapes that the kids never watched were on the floor. Well, it didn't fit his theory so he didn't focus on the question.



    Well, bruising doesn't happen after death. But beyond that, I have not expertise.




    Everyone here if fairly certain Burke had a pair of Hi-Tek boots. Unfortunately the boots that created the print were never found so the whole boot issues is speculation. It could have come from Burke, a police officer, a friend, someone working for the Ramseys or an intruder.

    Shoe laces could have been traced back to the manufacturer.
    I agree that they could have come from the sources that you stated above. However, we do know that BR DID own a pair of Hi-Tec boots. This fact has come out in the Atlanta interviews in 2000 or 2001. Not only did BR tell the GJ that he owned Hi-Tec shoes/boots, but so did FW and FW Jr.

    Why did the parents hide the fact that BR had Hi-Tec boots?

    Ryan Ross; April 14, 2003 in Crime Magazine:

    "And the mystery of the Hi-Tec boot imprint was solved in grand jury testimony. Prosecutors disclosed in the 2000 interviews of the Ramseys that Burke and one of his friends had told jurors that Burke owned a pair of Hi-Tec boots - something his parents said they somehow overlooked or forgot when they told authorities no one in the family owned such a boot, even though there is a distinctive compass on the boot."


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  2. #2777
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cottonstar View Post
    I agree that they could have come from the sources that you stated above. However, we do know that BR DID own a pair of Hi-Tec boots. This fact has come out in the Atlanta interviews in 2000 or 2001. Not only did BR tell the GJ that he owned Hi-Tec shoes/boots, but so did FW and FW Jr.

    Why did the parents hide the fact that BR had Hi-Tec boots?

    Ryan Ross; April 14, 2003 in Crime Magazine:

    "And the mystery of the Hi-Tec boot imprint was solved in grand jury testimony. Prosecutors disclosed in the 2000 interviews of the Ramseys that Burke and one of his friends had told jurors that Burke owned a pair of Hi-Tec boots - something his parents said they somehow overlooked or forgot when they told authorities no one in the family owned such a boot, even though there is a distinctive compass on the boot."


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Cottonstar,
    An explanation for Burke's Hi-Tec footprint is that he told James Kolar in interview that he was in the wine-cellar on Christmas Day afternoon rummaging about.

    .

  3. #2778
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    Heyya ID
    Ya, just even a peep from the Whites wrt
    BR's behaviour post removal from the crime scene.
    Hey Tadpole, This is exactly what I'm interested in. Not only afterwards but beforehand as well, what idiosyncrasies did each person have; I don't buy that JR and PR simply told BR she was missing, then in heaven and that was it. Unless he has a lot more mental health issues than I think he does, especially as a child, he wouldn't just accept that and then it's done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cottonstar View Post
    Not an official crime scene photo.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    First one I believe is from Lou Smit's files, second was a crime scene photo with tabloid overlays. I'm sure I've seen both in the crime scene photos, but I could be wrong on that

    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
    at ID
    IDK
    ST`s bedwetting theory, JBR is in the supine postion for diapering?
    wrt CW the AEA theory the Birefringent materials are suggested to be talcum,
    diapering, the supine position?
    I don't put stock in his over all theory. I don't believe she wet the bed that night. The bed sheets didn't appear to have urine on them, I don't believe it was changed as they match the pillow. I think I also saw another pillow matching the sheets behind the bed head in the crime scene video. If she had wet the bed, there wouldn't be as much urine release upon death.

    Disclaimer: My mistake I didn't read the WS book, it was Cyril Wecht that I read. I wish we knew more about the birefringent material, I could believe it was talcum powder, it fits with them wearing latex gloves in the staging. For what, I'm not sure. Perhaps when she was found she still had the paintbrush inserted and someone went fishing around to make sure there was nothing else there? I find that a bit weak. Maybe it was to help clean out blood? I don't know if I believe the auto-erotic asphyxiation, the lower white mark was done post mortem, wasn't it? And the "garrotte" was staging.

  4. #2779
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    Lou Smit didn’t start investigating until 3 months after her murder. The other picture of the wine cellar is not a crime scene photo. It is a “staged” photo by the tabs.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  5. #2780
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwajjk View Post
    Why didn't JR sue Cyril Wecht?
    Too big a fish, if you take my meaning.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  6. #2781
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cottonstar View Post
    Lou Smit didn’t start investigating until 3 months after her murder. The other picture of the wine cellar is not a crime scene photo. It is a “staged” photo by the tabs.
    Ive looked through the Smit photos, but don't really reference them. Too much time had elapsed between the murder and his photos and I don't feel they were objective. I'll have to try and dig up the picture I'm referring to wrt the WC/log grabber thing

  7. #2782
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    otg is offline Reports of my death are greatly exagerated... but not completely unfounded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IridescentDreams View Post
    Do we know if the abrasions on JBR were inflicted pre or post mortem?
    Quote Originally Posted by BoldBear View Post
    Well, bruising doesn't happen after death. But beyond that, I have not expertise.
    Abrasions certainly can, and actually bruising can and does occur postmortem as well. Usually it is inflicted within minutes of death while there is sufficient blood pressure to fill the impacted tissue from damaged capillaries. But it is still possible before the blood has congealed (within the livor mortis timeframe). If an M.E. has a reason to question whether it was inflicted antemortem or is an artifact, it can be visibly differentiated from antemortem bruises:

    http://emedinews.blogspot.com/2012/0...ortem-and.html


    There is even an objective test for determining whether a bruise might be ante- or post- mortem:

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...38X?via%3Dihub
    "...in a civil lawsuit, you subject your client to the legal equivalent of a colonoscopy.”
    -- Alan Dershowitz

    "One can only hope."
    -- otg

  8. #2783
    otg's Avatar
    otg is offline Reports of my death are greatly exagerated... but not completely unfounded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IridescentDreams View Post
    How do you do the "originally posted by..." quote thingo?
    I don't think anyone has answered this one of your questions, and BTW (by the way), welcome to WS.

    When your are logged in, at the bottom of the post you want to respond to you'll notice four buttons: "Thanks" (which is polite if you appreciate the post), "Reply," "Reply With Quote," and then a "quote icon with a plus sign." If you click on the "Reply," your response is stacked in the old forum form directly under the post you are responding to (I don't know if anyone uses this any more). If you click on "Reply With Quote," it'll open the reply form with the post quoted. If you choose to respond only to a small portion of the quote (as I did in this one), you can delete the rest of the post, but it's polite to note that you did so (rsbm: respectively snipped by me). If you want to respond in one post to more than one post, click on the last icon of each you want to include and then click at the bottom of the page on the button that says "+ Reply to Thread."

    One more thing... It's a good general practice to "Preview" your posts before you post, in case you need to edit or in case some of the formatting gets messed up.
    Last edited by otg; Yesterday at 02:28 AM.
    "...in a civil lawsuit, you subject your client to the legal equivalent of a colonoscopy.”
    -- Alan Dershowitz

    "One can only hope."
    -- otg

  9. #2784
    otg's Avatar
    otg is offline Reports of my death are greatly exagerated... but not completely unfounded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IridescentDreams View Post
    Hey Tadpole, This is exactly what I'm interested in. Not only afterwards but beforehand as well, what idiosyncrasies did each person have; I don't buy that JR and PR simply told BR she was missing, then in heaven and that was it. Unless he has a lot more mental health issues than I think he does, especially as a child, he wouldn't just accept that and then it's done.



    First one I believe is from Lou Smit's files, second was a crime scene photo with tabloid overlays. I'm sure I've seen both in the crime scene photos, but I could be wrong on that



    I don't put stock in his over all theory. I don't believe she wet the bed that night. The bed sheets didn't appear to have urine on them, I don't believe it was changed as they match the pillow. I think I also saw another pillow matching the sheets behind the bed head in the crime scene video. If she had wet the bed, there wouldn't be as much urine release upon death.

    Disclaimer: My mistake I didn't read the WS book, it was Cyril Wecht that I read. I wish we knew more about the birefringent material, I could believe it was talcum powder, it fits with them wearing latex gloves in the staging. For what, I'm not sure. Perhaps when she was found she still had the paintbrush inserted and someone went fishing around to make sure there was nothing else there? I find that a bit weak. Maybe it was to help clean out blood? I don't know if I believe the auto-erotic asphyxiation, the lower white mark was done post mortem, wasn't it? And the "garrotte" was staging.
    ID, so far, I'm enjoying seeing how a nube views and expresses the first impressions they have about the case, and you seem to have a level head on your shoulders (seeing through so many of the Ramsey lies, and not putting too much faith in someone just because they have a "Dr." in front of their name). Wecht speculated early on about the "birefringent material" and the "AE." Many things are birefringent besides talc, and the AE asphyxiation is ridiculous on so many levels. I won't bother going into all the reasons at this time, but you already understand the biggest of them: the fact that the white line was not inflicted antemortem. I also appreciate the fact that you recognize the "garotte" as staging.
    "...in a civil lawsuit, you subject your client to the legal equivalent of a colonoscopy.”
    -- Alan Dershowitz

    "One can only hope."
    -- otg

  10. #2785
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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    (rsbm)


    Abrasions certainly can, and actually bruising can and does occur postmortem as well. Usually it is inflicted within minutes of death while there is sufficient blood pressure to fill the impacted tissue from damaged capillaries. But it is still possible before the blood has congealed (within the livor mortis timeframe). If an M.E. has a reason to question whether it was inflicted antemortem or is an artifact, it can be visibly differentiated from antemortem bruises:

    http://emedinews.blogspot.com/2012/0...ortem-and.html


    There is even an objective test for determining whether a bruise might be ante- or post- mortem:

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...38X?via%3Dihub
    Thanks for that, otg, that was quite an interesting read. The coroner didn't do these tests in this case, though, correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    (rsbm)I don't think anyone has answered this one of your questions, and BTW (by the way), welcome to WS.

    When your are logged in, at the bottom of the post you want to respond to you'll notice four buttons: "Thanks" (which is polite if you appreciate the post), "Reply," "Reply With Quote," and then a "quote icon with a plus sign." If you click on the "Reply," your response is stacked in the old forum form directly under the post you are responding to (I don't know if anyone uses this any more). If you click on "Reply With Quote," it'll open the reply form with the post quoted. If you choose to respond only to a small portion of the quote (as I did in this one), you can delete the rest of the post, but it's polite to note that you did so (rsbm: respectively snipped by me). If you want to respond in one post to more than one post, click on the last icon of each you want to include and then click at the bottom of the page on the button that says "+ Reply to Thread."

    One more thing... It's a good general practice to "Preview" your posts before you post, in case you need to edit or in case some of the formatting gets messed up.
    Thank you I'm glad to be here I some how did manage to figure the basics out by pure happenstance but you've outlined it wonderfully for me, thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    ID, so far, I'm enjoying seeing how a nube views and expresses the first impressions they have about the case, and you seem to have a level head on your shoulders (seeing through so many of the Ramsey lies, and not putting too much faith in someone just because they have a "Dr." in front of their name). Wecht speculated early on about the "birefringent material" and the "AE." Many things are birefringent besides talc, and the AE asphyxiation is ridiculous on so many levels. I won't bother going into all the reasons at this time, but you already understand the biggest of them: the fact that the white line was not inflicted antemortem. I also appreciate the fact that you recognize the "garotte" as staging.
    This whole case is something I've checked in on from time to time. Over the last year I started fishing deeper for official documents etc so I'm not completely fresh to the case, but definitely completely green to Web sleuths. I only found this forum, and ACandyRose about a fortnight to a month ago. I try to keep an open mind and know that just because someone has a few letters before or after their name, it doesn't mean they're completely objective and not serving their own purpose, some how. The birefringent material is something I wish I had more information on, I can see how talcum powder could make sense depending on your chosen theory. Whether or not I subscribe to that, I'm not sure. As you said, it could come from many sources. I'm still in the very early stages of developing a theory, with that in mind, I don't look at anything as 100% fact, or fiction in regards to some of the main players' testimonies; be that actual testimony, books, comments etc. Any advice on where to focus with starting to develop my theory? I see a lot of talk about time line, circumstances, chronology of events. I know who I think did a few certain aspects, but beyond that I have no time line, what came first, what happened after, and so on.


  11. #2786
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    Quote Originally Posted by IridescentDreams View Post
    Thanks UKGuy!

    I am familiar with those ones, but there's some longer ones I'm unsure of IIRC, BBM I think? I'm sure there's a few more but there what I recall off the top of my head that I've seen pop up and just go "huh?"

    I think one thing everyone could agree on is these two couldn't lie straight in bed. I'm sure I read in one of the transcripts that PR went to bed first whilst JR brushed his teeth, then read but she was already asleep.

    Im not the sort to put all my chickens in one basket and take anything at more than face value. I cherry pick things out of each that I know have no validity, being now that is some almost 20 years now after some of these were written. However, I have found some valid information in all. Good point on what the Ram's were avoiding but I suspect they were far too connected for that ever to be a possibility, just look at the outcome of the GJ.

    My guess is the Stines know exactly what happened, but I suspect that had to happen pretty much immediately, the Rams went straight from the hell hole to the Stines. I thought they were more involved with the Whites, originally so why didn't they go there? Which also loops into what do the Whites know that we don't, I know they weren't bought off but they themselves said they never spoke out beyond what they did re a special prosecutor, release of files etc in case they were ever called into trial as witnesses. Something about FW saying "I'll have to tell them what I know John" or the likes after the whole lawyer up, CNN debarcle. Or is that more Ramsey slight of hand?

    I don't really have much of a standpoint yet on whether it was genital trauma or sexual abuse. I think at this point in time I'm leaning towards abuse by JR, based on the transcripts. As soon as sexual assault was mentioned, JR was highly offended and ranting about the detectives disgracing his relationship with JBR and Patsy didn't seem to question that she'd been sexually assaulted and jumped to JR's defence without it ever being mentioned to either of them about him possibly being involved. Neither of them were concerned with the fact there was evidence she did have vaginal injuries but WERE concerned with quickly distancing JR from them. However, I am pretty early into my investigations so that could very well change.

    Its plausible. I'll have to dig through the transcripts and books again, but I'm sure there's a record of Patsy being on medication at that time. And not just a paracetamol here or there. Me thinks I have to start up my own digital record to pull from. It's not far fetched to believe she was drinking either, it was Christmas after all, that also brings into play interactions between alcohol and medication. I'll have to double check but if she was on an antidepressant then, it's quite easy to have other or increased side effects.

    Thats true. I am curious about what level of a role LHP played as a house keeper. Given PR's solid southern roots, what happens behind closed doors stays as such, like BoldBear said, would she really want someone digging around deep so often? No discredit to LHP's work as it may not have been set out for her, but surely she couldn't have done too much around there given all the clutter and mess?

    The particular marks im focussing on at the moment are the triangle type bruise on the neck, the one on her face near the ear and the ones that the Rams have us believe are stun gun marks. The one near the ear is of particular interest to me in "what the hell is that" and the possible train tracks, could that have been done in the very seconds after her passing?

    Well there goes my theory on the cord. Personally, I think it was to stage away from a certain person. Who, I'm not sure, because they all have reasons and circumstances to be written out of the picture. Of course, that all depends on things we will likely never know, or until the end of my time at the least.

    Have you read LA's depo? Ive only just started it but she's already said she knows JDI and he was sexually abusing JBR. She was still in the police force when she was reported as getting close to PR, apparently Patsy even thanked her and sent her flowers? It was in ST's book. It'll be interesting to see if she comes out later in life and says anything.

    I'd love to see the Whites do a book or something, including little Fleet and Daphne. I'd take their version of events prior and post to that of the Ramsey's. It'd be interesting on what light they'd shed in regards to personalities, family dynamics etc.
    IridescentDreams,
    I don't really have much of a standpoint yet on whether it was genital trauma or sexual abuse. I think at this point in time I'm leaning towards abuse by JR, based on the transcripts. As soon as sexual assault was mentioned, JR was highly offended and ranting about the detectives disgracing his relationship with JBR and Patsy didn't seem to question that she'd been sexually assaulted and jumped to JR's defence without it ever being mentioned to either of them about him possibly being involved. Neither of them were concerned with the fact there was evidence she did have vaginal injuries but WERE concerned with quickly distancing JR from them. However, I am pretty early into my investigations so that could very well change.
    BBM.

    January 30, 1997 Search Warrant, Excerpt
    On December 27, 1996, Det. Linda Arndt and Det. Tom Trujillo of the Boulder Police Department were in attendance at the post mortem examination of the body of JonBenet Ramsey examination conducted by Dr. John Meyer. Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant of this, and that the clothing that the child was wearing at the time of Dr. Meyer's post mortem examination was the same clothing that she observed the child to be wearing when the body was initially discovered.
    January 30, 1997 Search Warrant, Excerpt
    Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed the Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in that area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's pubic area having been wiped by a cloth.
    January 30, 1997 Search Warrant, Excerpt
    Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.
    AUTOPSY REPORT

    NAME: RAMSEY, JONBENET AUTOPSY NO:96A-155

    ...

    Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation.The smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contains epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen.
    The birefringent foreign material might be varnish from the paintbrush handle or the actual missing piece of paintbrush handle. Cellulose is birefringent material, and can easily be identified as such via standard lab tests which Coroner Meyer requested, yielding the birefringent status of the material.

    If you consider Coroner Meyer's verbatim Autopsy remarks and his observation regarding birefringent foreign material, then he patently does not want you know precisely the composition of birefringent foreign material.

    .

  12. #2787
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    IridescentDreams,

    BBM.

    January 30, 1997 Search Warrant, Excerpt


    January 30, 1997 Search Warrant, Excerpt


    January 30, 1997 Search Warrant, Excerpt



    The birefringent foreign material might be varnish from the paintbrush handle or the actual missing piece of paintbrush handle. Cellulose is birefringent material, and can easily be identified as such via standard lab tests which Coroner Meyer requested, yielding the birefringent status of the material.

    If you consider Coroner Meyer's verbatim Autopsy remarks and his observation regarding birefringent foreign material, then he patently does not want you know precisely the composition of birefringent foreign material.

    .
    Given what I've read, in my opinion there is very little doubt it was sexual abuse, that said I do keep my mind open to other possibilities. PR could use digital penetration as a form of punishment, though I do find that rather flimsy.

    Wouldn't it be fair to assume if the end of the paintbrush handle was recovered inside her, it would be listed as part of the items and evidence on his report? This could be incredibly naive on my part but surely given the circumstances and the authorities need to know, these would be included in the report for them. Or are you suggesting there was an additional report outlining the details in a specific manner?

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