questions about asphyxiation

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txsvicki

txsvicki

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I was watching one of the crime shows last nite, and an expert was talking about asphyxiation. It was said that a person can become unconscious very quickly when pressure is put on the neck area. Supposedly, this can lead the killer to let go, thinking the person is dead. When the victim gains consciousness, he is strangled again longer until dead. I wonder if this could have anything to do with the extra, lower cord mark on Jon Benet's neck?
 
txsvicki said:
I was watching one of the crime shows last nite, and an expert was talking about asphyxiation. It was said that a person can become unconscious very quickly when pressure is put on the neck area. Supposedly, this can lead the killer to let go, thinking the person is dead. When the victim gains consciousness, he is strangled again longer until dead. I wonder if this could have anything to do with the extra, lower cord mark on Jon Benet's neck?
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txsvicki,

Your scenario seems possible to me.

But why would that eborate ligature device be around JonBenet's neck in the first place? If an adult wanted to strangle a little six-year-old girl he could have simply used his hands and got it over with quickly. Why build an elaborate device with a "lasso" on one end and a stick "handle" on the other end and use it twice to kill her? There originally had to be another use for that device.

IMO the device was used for erotic asphyxiation, a highly dangerous masturbation technique usually performed only by teen boys and young male adults in their twenties. The FBI estimates that up to 1,000 young people every year die due to accidents involving erotic asphyxiation sex.

Since it's obvious from the evidence one of the three Ramseys in the house that night had to be involved and either killed or knows who killed JonBenet, then which one of the three might have been experimenting with EA?

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab
 
BlueCrab said:
But why would that eborate ligature device be around JonBenet's neck in the first place? If an adult wanted to strangle a little six-year-old girl he could have simply used his hands and got it over with quickly. Why build an elaborate device with a "lasso" on one end and a stick "handle" on the other end and use it twice to kill her?
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In a Patsy-did-it scenario, I propose the theory that she would want distance from JonBenet's neck so as to avoid breaking her nails. It would be damning in the extreme if, on the morning of December 26th, after having been gussied up and visible to many people on the night of December 25th, Patsy turned up with one or even more broken nails December 26th, with no explanation of how simply sleeping through the night would tear them to pieces. Remember, while serving jury duty in 1996, Patsy told defense attorney Steve Louth how he should have conducted his defense of a man who punched another man in the mouth. Patsy is no dummy when it comes to being aware of what looks incriminating.
 
BlueCrab said:
But why would that eborate ligature device be around JonBenet's neck in the first place? If an adult wanted to strangle a little six-year-old girl he could have simply used his hands and got it over with quickly.
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I agree that it could have been done easily and quickly.
Therefore we explore those two words: 'easily' and 'quickly' and we then compare the results of those two explorations with other elements of the crime scene.

'easily': Just about any male can physically muster the grip strength to strangle a six year old girl. Only males in the extreme bottom range of grip strenght tests would have difficulty doing so.

'quickly': Ah, this is more likely. It is quite reasonble to conclude that he had no desire to kill her quickly but instead wanted to extend the process for his enjoyment. The garotte gives precise control over the application of force.
It even allows him to relax the pressure and then re-apply it. Repeatedly if he so desires.

Now you compare the results of the 'quickly' analysis to the purported Ransom Note. The note imposes a great deal of worry and agony and extends the time the Ramseys experience an agitated uncertainty.

So the common theme to the two elements is one of " fun ". It was fun to write the note and imagine the effect it would have on the parents the next morning and it was fun to employ a garotte to make the strangulation last longer.
 
txsvicki...good post. You raised an interesting question.

I'm a BDIer, but since I don't believe Burke meant to kill JonBenet, I think the additional ligature mark on her neck was from the initial yank he gave the cord to stop her from running away, possibly to tell on him, after he hurt her by inserting the paint stick into her vagina while they were playing doctor. This first yank was a knee-jerk reaction. Panicked, he then hit her on the head with the Maglite, and then yanked the now somewhat-loosened cord, this time pulling it harder and holding it for a longer period of time.

Edited to add: I think the cord was used in the sexual exploration game I believe Burke and JonBenet were playing (such as lead-the-prisoner, or something like that), but I'm not convinced erotic asphixiation was involved.
 
Ivy said:
txsvicki...good post. You raised an interesting question.

I'm a BDIer, but since I don't believe Burke meant to kill JonBenet, I think the additional ligature mark on her neck was from the initial yank he gave the cord to stop her from running away, possibly to tell on him, after he hurt her by inserting the paint stick into her vagina while they were playing doctor. This first yank was a knee-jerk reaction. Panicked, he then hit her on the head with the Maglite, and then yanked the now somewhat-loosened cord, this time pulling it harder and holding it for a longer period of time.

Edited to add: I think the cord was used in the sexual exploration game I believe Burke and JonBenet were playing (such as lead-the-prisoner, or something like that), but I'm not convinced erotic asphixiation was involved.
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Ivy,

It could have happened exactly the way you describe but, if so, who made the device that sure looks like something designed for EA? And who wrote the phony ransom note?

The CBI examiners say John didn't write it, and they say it's a very low probability that Patsy wrote it. And the verbiage in the note was a little beyond a fourth grader, so Burke wasn't the author (although he could have been the scribe). There had to have been a fifth person invited into the house that night by a Ramsey, and that person was older than Burke.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab
 
"Supposedly, this can lead the killer to let go, thinking the person is dead"

Many states of uncounsciousness can mimic death, especially to a lay person. the first scenario i ever read was an 'accidental' head injury lead to such a decreased state of counsciousness with her eyes fixed and dilated, unperceptable respirations, and no palpable pulse; that the strangulation was staged to cover that accident. And by 'accident' that means it was not a premeditated incident, it was impulsive in nature but deadly just the same.
 
BlueCrab, I can't get past reading years ago that according to one of the Ramseys' housekeepers, Burke liked to lead the Rs' dog around the house using a device similar to the so-called garotte. I was a newcomer to the case then, so I didn't think to save the WS posts in which this was discussed, and I don't recall if the housekeeper was said to be LHP, or someone else. So, although I think the contraption could be some kind of AE device, I'm just not totally convinced it was. I also don't discount the possibility that a friend or two of Burke's might have been involved, but Nathan? I don't think so.

David Liebman, former president of the National Association of Document Examiners, and Gideon Epstein, who was director of the forensics unit of the documents lab at the Immigration and Naturalization Service until he retired in 2000, are both convinced that Patsy wrote the note.

When Wood asked Epstein during his Wolf v Ramsey deposition how certain he was that Patsy wrote it, Epstein replied, "I am absolutely certain she wrote the note."

Wood asked, "Is that 60 percent certainty?"

Epstein replied, "No, that's 100 percent certainty."

Epstein and Liebman notwithstanding, after I saw Patsy's exemplars compared to the handwriting in the note, there's not been a single doubt in my mind that Patsy penned it.

~~~~

popcorn, how interesting! Do you know if the case is detailed online anywhere? I'd like to read more about it.
 
Ivy said:
I can't get past reading years ago that according to one of the Ramseys' housekeepers, Burke liked to lead the Rs' dog around the house using a device similar to the so-called garotte. [/QUOTE=Ivy]

I've been around a long time and thought I'd read everything related to this case, but NEVER have I seen such a thing about Burke, the dog, and a garotte.

PUHLEEZE give us a credibile source for such a (ridiculous) idea.
Click to expand...
 
Ivy said:
Epstein and Liebman notwithstanding, after I saw Patsy's exemplars compared to the handwriting in the note, there's not been a single doubt in my mind that Patsy penned it.
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Ivy, I don't know how anyone with anything close to corrected or natural 20/20 vision could disagree with you. There are only two posibilities here. Either Patsy wrote the note, or someone took a long time to learn how to fake her writing styles and framed her.

It can only be one or the other, and everything can't be blamed on some super-natural intruder.
 
"how interesting! Do you know if the case is detailed online anywhere? I'd like to read more about it."

Not sure I understand the question. It's detailed here and there in living color, it is thee murder of JonBenet herself. I think that specfic scenario is one possibility summed up in PMPT.
 
Ivy,

I don't remember reading anything in a book or major article about Burke using a ligature device for the dog or for playing. There were several BDI posters who had this scenario in their theories, including La Contessa, and perhaps that's where you read it.

In regard to the document examiners who say Patsy wrote the ransom note, there's a story behind the story. All of the government's examiners say Patsy likely didn't write the note. There's a good possibility that Darnay Hoffman's examiners, in the Wolf v Ramsey case, were using exemplars from Burke, thinking they were exemplars from Patsy, when they made their determinations that Patsy wrote the note.

Hoffman's team of examiners were Tom Miller, Cina Wong, and David Liebman. Larry Ziegler and Gideon Epstein backed off and didn't join the team. Hoffman's team was given exemplars and told they were in Patsy's handwriting. The exemplars were captions from Burke Ramsey's personal photo album. From this they decided that whoever wrote the exemplars also wrote the ransom note.

IMO the exemplar evidence is strong that Burke wrote the captions on his own pictures. If Darnay Hoffman's examiners are correct, then Burke wrote the ransom note.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab
 
Getting back to the two ligature marks on JonBenet's neck, there's a good possibility there were TWO separate ligatures used.

The top mark was definitely from the 1/4" white nylon cord ligature still imbedded into JonBenet's neck. But the bottom mark could have been from a heavier rope that had been used to hang JonBenet or to prop her up for the purpose of grotesquely posing her.

Evidence of this is the 3/4" by 1 1/2" mysterious and unexplained triangular red abrasion on the front of JonBenet's neck. That triangular mark could have come from the large bulkier knot that would have been needed to tie the heavier rope and form the noose for hanging.

When investigating possible hangings at crime scenes one thing to look for is an upside down V or triangular abrasion on the neck where the knot for the noose would leave an abrasion.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab
 
BlueCrab said:
Hoffman's team was given exemplars and told they were in Patsy's handwriting. The exemplars were captions from Burke Ramsey's personal photo album. From this they decided that whoever wrote the exemplars also wrote the ransom note.
Click to expand...
Hoffman's team had other handwriting samples that were known to be from Patsy. Included was a signed pageant application and notes Patsy wrote in cards she sent out. Candy can probably tell you exactly what was used, but it wasn't just "captions from Burkes photo album". There was no way Burke could have had anything to do with most of the examplars - it's a fact that Patsy wrote them.
 
popcorn... From the wording of your post, I thought you were citing a similar case.

BC...I am sure I've never read anything about Burke using something similar to the garotte device to lead the dog around the house anywhere but at WS. It may have been just a forum rumor with no substance to it...but it may not have been just a rumor, so I'm not dismissing it altogether.

I also am not dismissing the possiblity that there were two ligatures, although I think the lower ligature mark on JonBenet's neck was probably made by the same ligature that was found on her body...but the lower mark was made first. I have studied the photo showing the lower mark, and to me it appears to be the same width as the in-place ligature cord. The triangular abrasion is a puzzlement. I too had read that upside down V marks are often indicative of hanging, but if she'd been hanged, I think her body would have shown more evidence of it.

Have you seen the Wolf v Ramsey handwriting documents? They were what clinched it for me that Patsy penned the note. Btw, Epstein used exemplars Patsy wrote in the presence of LE for his comparison.
 
BlueCrab, the cord on JonBenet's neck was NOT a lasso! Look up knots in a dictionary or encyclopedia. A lasso allows the rope to slip back through once holding pressure is released. Likewise a noose allows the rope to be pulled back through. A noose holds the rope with friction, a lasso does not. AE devices are more properly called lassoes as they allow for quick release and re-application. The thing around JB's neck was pulled and it held it's place until it was cut off. It did not slip as a lasso would.

Also, the cord could have been wrapped around the neck before the double knot was tied. There is no evidence from the garrote that shows a loop was first constructed then slipped over the head. Hairs and the necklace intertwined with the cord might indicate the former rather than the later. And the triangular abrasion could have been from fingers placed under the cord to pull the loop back open a bit for repositioning. At any rate the contruction of the garrote contraindicates AE.

Why_nut, If Patsy is no dummy about implicating herself why did she include things in the note from books that are known to be associated with her? Why include phrases commonly used by people she knew and lived with? Why use the pad and pen from the house? Why put an acronym in the note and then leave The Bible open to a verse with an acronym connection? Why feed her pineapple and leave the pineapple out? Why wrap the body with a doll gown? Why remove one shirt and redress with another? Why write DOI and tell the world that you gave yourself liscence to mix Advent and Lent and wove death into the Christmas tree. Not only does she implicated herself it looks to me like she was a bit proud of what she did!
 
Shylock said:
Hoffman's team had other handwriting samples that were known to be from Patsy. Included was a signed pageant application and notes Patsy wrote in cards she sent out. Candy can probably tell you exactly what was used, but it wasn't just "captions from Burkes photo album". There was no way Burke could have had anything to do with most of the examplars - it's a fact that Patsy wrote them.
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Shylock,

Many of the exemplars they used were captions from Burke's photo album and, IMO, ALL of the captions were in Burke's own handwriting.

Six out of eight of Cina Wong's individual side by side comparison letters included in her report were taken from Burke's photo album.

Four of the seven exemplars used by Tom Miller were taken from Burke's photo album. For example:

E-3 A photograph with the words "This me when I was first born. That's my Mom and the doctor." (Patsy wouldn't have left out the word "is" if she had written it, and she wouldn't have capitalized the word "mom".)

E-4 A photograph with the words "I was 1 1/2. I'm having a picture taken".

E-5 A photograph with the words "I was 2. I was going bike riding with my Mom and my Dad." (Patsy wouldn't have capitalized the words "mom and dad".)

E-7 A photograph with the words "Rainbow Fish Players".

Please note the unnecessary capitalization of some words, the same as in the ransom note. The spacing between the words were far apart, the same as in the ransom note. The pictures in the album were of Burke and the writing is in the first person. IMO these exemplars are from Burke, not Patsy.

It leads me to believe that Burke could have been the scribe, but not the author, of the ransom note.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab
 
BC, what makes you think Burke, and not Patsy, wrote the photo captions?
 
Ivy said:
BC, what makes you think Burke, and not Patsy, wrote the photo captions?
Click to expand...

Ivy,

I explained why Burke wrote the captions in post #18 above.

Also, when Patsy was asked about who wrote the captions she "didn't remember".

JMO
 
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