Abuse and JonBenet

calicocat · Sep 16, 2006

I was just reading another thread where Patsy is supposed to have said that JonBenet was better off dead. I've asked the Websleuth to tell me where she read this, but it also made me wonder about a couple of things.

1) If Patsy did say it, she had to have been aware that JonBenet was being molested. I remember reading about the douches, yeast infections, bladder problems, etc.

2) JonBenet must have been molested the day that the Ramsey's had their open house for Christmas. I believe that she was the one that tried to make the 911 call. Fleet White answered the door and told the police that a call was placed because he was worried about his mother's medicine? I think a decision was made at that point to kill JonBenet in order to silence her, and Fleet White and John took care of it Christmas night. Patsy did say that she went up to bed before John.

3) John could have hired someone to commit the murder and left a door or window open for them to get in. He and Fleet concocted the ransom note while Patsy wrote it.

4) Patsy tried to tell police that John was involved in the murder by mentioning his name over and over again in the ransom note.

5) Fleet and John came to a disagreement at the funeral regarding the murder and cover-up. Remember how they both went to find the body?

6) I can't get the picture of John Andrew Ramsey crying at JonBenet's grave out of my mind. It just makes me think that he knew what was going on and could have done something to stop it, but never did.

7) Has John Ramsey's ex-wife ever commented on the case? Was she aware of any pedophilish behavior in her husband?

Of course all the above are just my thoughts. Any comments?

angelwngs · Sep 16, 2006

calicocat said:
I was just reading another thread where Patsy is supposed to have said that JonBenet was better off dead. I've asked the Websleuth to tell me where she read this, but it also made me wonder about a couple of things.

1) If Patsy did say it, she had to have been aware that JonBenet was being molested. I remember reading about the douches, yeast infections, bladder problems, etc.

I responded to your question on another thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by calicocat
Where did Patsy say that JB was better off dead?

What I read was that she said words to the effect of: JBR will never have to go through finding out she has cancer and endure its treatments and she will never have to bury her own child....

That is not indicitive of the fact that she knew JBR was bing molested, IMO.

2) JonBenet must have been molested the day that the Ramsey's had their open house for Christmas. I believe that she was the one that tried to make the 911 call. Fleet White answered the door and told the police that a call was placed because he was worried about his mother's medicine? I think a decision was made at that point to kill JonBenet in order to silence her, and Fleet White and John took care of it Christmas night. Patsy did say that she went up to bed before John.

From what I have read, the 911 call was explained as an 'accidental call' as if someone was calling 411 information and accidently dialed 911. Reguardless of the truth or fiction surrounding this 911 call, there is one single thing that I firmly believe to be true in this entire case and that is that Fleet White wanted justice for the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. He acted as one would expect the father of a murdered child to behave. He approached JR in Atlanta at the gathering following his serving as pallbearer, and emphatically took his stand against John's behavior and inactions in the days immediately following JonBenet's murder. At the links thread at the top of this forum on JBR you will find a post by me which leads you to the letters Fleet White wrote requesting a special prosecutor in the case. He and Priscilla almost immediately distanced themselves from the Ramseys after the discovery of JBR's body. Fleet White pulled Linda Arndt over to the side to talk privately, explaining that he had been in the cellar earlier and had not seen JBR's body, yet John immediately found it upon opening the cellar door. I might be wrong about my opinions concerning a great deal about this case, but I will firmly stand my ground on my belief that Fleet White was/is a good and decent man and reacted in a manner in which we would have HOPED to have seen John Ramsey the father of JonBenet behave following the murder of his daughter.

One more tiny thing, the "shelf-life" of this thread is probably very limited as I have witnessed the deletion of other threads inferring/discussing that Fleet White was less than honorable in this investigation/murder case.

3) John could have hired someone to commit the murder and left a door or window open for them to get in. He and Fleet concocted the ransom note while Patsy wrote it.

This is as unlikely as the possibility that McDonalds is sitting quietly on a recipe for No Calorie/No Fat Frenchfries which taste exactly like their regular ones.

#1 there are too many people involved in this scenerio. One or more would have screwed up and let the proverbial cat out of the bag.

4) Patsy tried to tell police that John was involved in the murder by mentioning his name over and over again in the ransom note.

Maybe. I tend to think that whoever authored the note harbored great hostility for John Ramsey. I am very doubtful that even though the ransom note had elements of 'childishness' to it, that Patsy was capable of composing it. Actually, I think it may have been dictated by John himself and Patsy did the handwriting. I think the original began with "Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey" and was dismissed by John because of his own subconscious guilt and dislike for himself at that moment. (but that is my dime store psychology...and just my opinion.)

5) Fleet and John came to a disagreement at the funeral regarding the murder and cover-up. Remember how they both went to find the body?

Linda Arndt the ONLY LE present at the time, instructed John Ramsey to go and look for any sign of anything anywhere in the house which signaled a disturbance or anything out of place, so to speak. She went on to tell him not to touch anything. Fleet White went along to help with this LE directed activity. Fleet was DISTURBED by what took place when John Ramsey found the body and after as well.

6) I can't get the picture of John Andrew Ramsey crying at JonBenet's grave out of my mind. It just makes me think that he knew what was going on and could have done something to stop it, but never did.

John Andrew may have exhibited the most 'normal' anticipated behavior of the entire R bunch, IMO.

7) Has John Ramsey's ex-wife ever commented on the case? Was she aware of any pedophilish behavior in her husband?

Never, that I have heard or read. You can bet your sweet last :twocents:, that if she had JR would have been arrested and charged.

Of course all the above are just my thoughts. Any comments?

I respect your thoughts and opinions as I do anyone who offers theirs here after 10 years of Blunders in Boulder. My posts are just my thoughts and opinions as well. I started in 1996 believing that the parents couldn't have done this. I moved to being a fence sitter and then I watched and read more about the case... In the past two months I have reread everything I could get my hands on and am now solid in my opinion that the Rr's are not innocent. But that's just my opinion. We are each entitled to our own.

calicocat · Sep 16, 2006

Then why do you think the Ramsey's murdered JonBenet?

Linda7NJ · Sep 16, 2006

calicocat said:
Then why do you think the Ramsey's murdered JonBenet?

Of all the children murdered in this county every year, I have yet to figure out a motive that would make any sort of sense

angelwngs · Sep 16, 2006

calicocat said:
Then why do you think the Ramsey's murdered JonBenet?

That is the '64,000 dollar question'! In my opinion, (today...), I THINK it began as an "accidental and/or rage induced" blow to the head and proceeded into the most insanely elaborate, screwed-up cover-up in any murder case ever publicized.

I desperately tried to create or find every plausable intruder theory that I felt could 'work' and could be accepted as believable. None were.

The 'facts' of the case point to 'evidence' that implicate the R's, as do their inconsistancies in interviews and statements. Add that to their bizarre behavior and they are, IMO, 100% to blame for any and every individual being of the opinion that they were involved in the murder of their daughter, as well as in the cover-up which followed.

K777angel · Sep 17, 2006

I don't think anyone "murdered" JonBenet Ramsey. Murder happens when someone INTENTIONALLY takes the life of someone else. That is their goal.
A homicide is where someone "ends up" dead - but the person responsible for that death never "intended" it. It can result from negligence, accident or the indirect result of a beating or assault (WITHOUT the intent to kill).
A drunk driver is a perfect example. He/she drives drunk, hits someone and they end up dead from the crash. No one intended for someone to die as a result of their drunk driving. But they chose to drive drunk.

I think this was a sad case of familial homicide. Whoever lashed out at her in an impulsive rage (bashing her in the head) - did what most people do in that situation - covered it up. Staged the scene to answer the question, "How do I explain why she lay dead?"

The staging was so over the top and overdone that the FBI said it was what they call "staging within staging."
You might say the ransom note was a "ransom note within a ransom note within a ransom note." So overdone was it too.
So very Patsy......

~Angel~

Rupert · Sep 17, 2006

angelwngs said:
That is the '64,000 dollar question'! In my opinion, (today...), I THINK it began as an "accidental and/or rage induced" blow to the head and proceeded into the most insanely elaborate, screwed-up cover-up in any murder case ever publicized.

I desperately tried to create or find every plausable intruder theory that I felt could 'work' and were could be accepted as believable. None were.

The 'facts' of the case point to 'evidence' that implicate the R's, as do their inconsistancies in interviews and statements. Add that to their bizarre behavior and they are, IMO, 100% to blame for any and every individual being of the opinion that they were involved in the murder of their daughter, as well as in the cover-up which followed.

I ditto that Angelwings. I still keep my eye open for any idea that might explain an intruder. All the real evidence so far just doesn't convince me there was an intruder.

angelwngs · Sep 17, 2006

K777angel said:
I don't think anyone "murdered" JonBenet Ramsey. Murder happens when someone INTENTIONALLY takes the life of someone else. That is their goal.
A homicide is where someone "ends up" dead - but the person responsible for that death never "intended" it. It can result from negligence, accident or the indirect result of a beating or assault (WITHOUT the intent to kill).
A drunk driver is a perfect example. He/she drives drunk, hits someone and they end up dead from the crash. No one intended for someone to die as a result of their drunk driving. But they chose to drive drunk.

I think this was a sad case of familial homicide. Whoever lashed out at her in an impulsive rage (bashing her in the head) - did what most people do in that situation - covered it up. Staged the scene to answer the question, "How do I explain why she lay dead?"

The staging was so over the top and overdone that the FBI said it was what they call "staging within staging."
You might say the ransom note was a "ransom note within a ransom note within a ransom note." So overdone was it too.
So very Patsy......

~Angel~

If it was a homicide and not a murder then what was the garrote? (An act of staging which "accidently" killed her? I don't think so.)

It may indeed have begun (with the accidental/rage induced bash to the head) as a homicide, but then it ended with an intentional strangulation turning it into a murder, IMO.

BBB167893 · Sep 17, 2006

"(An act of staging which "accidently" killed her? I don't think so.)"

If you didn't know the person wasn't dead. Like I said, this knot doesn't undo very easily.

"Then why do you think the Ramsey's murdered JonBenet?"

How much time you got?

Solace · Sep 17, 2006

calicocat said:
Then why do you think the Ramsey's murdered JonBenet?

Hi Calicocat. There is no substantial evidence whatsoever that an intruder came into that house. The window theory which is such bull is not worthy of consideration since the spider web was undisturbed and it was not redone by the spider since it was 9 degrees the next morning. No one came through that window. Fleet White did nothing. He moved that suitcase nearer to the window when he went downstairs to look for JB. Fleet White did not do this thing.

Patsy RAmsey most likely did this thing in a rage and staged the scene to cover it up and John is aiding and abetting. I never believed that he molested her, BUT Rashomon, a knowledgeable poster on this case, has said that fibers from his shirt were found in the folds of JB's labia.

Now, I hadn't heard that, but since it comes from Rash, I do not doubt it. So now I am starting to think that John is involved in some kind of molestation. What else can I think. There is evidence of prior abuse that some forsenic doctors swear by.

I never believed that because I thought John would just not risk getting caught. I always believed S. Thomas' theory that the damage to JB was a kind of corporal punishment. Some punishment. Geez.

The maid said she heard Patsy yelling at JB in the bathroom all the time and JB yelling and crying.

I have to say this that I have a son and if I found myself yelling at him in the bathrrom on a regular basis, I would definitely seek some psychiatric help. That does not mean I did not discipline my son, I did. I just did not scream at him, and certainly not on a regular basis (there is something definitely wrong with that crap). And the fact that tlhis was going on regularly tells me that Patsy is very very capable of losing her extremely short temper especially if she were taking tranquilizers and I believe she was. She had to be. She had been through cancer. I know she had tranquilizers then and it is highly doubtful that she stopped. And from her CNN interview, she was taking quite a few.

UKGuy · Sep 17, 2006

Solace said:
Hi Calicocat. There is no substantial evidence whatsoever that an intruder came into that house. The window theory which is such bull is not worthy of consideration since the spider web was undisturbed and it was not redone by the spider since it was 9 degrees the next morning. No one came through that window. Fleet White did nothing. He moved that suitcase nearer to the window when he went downstairs to look for JB. Fleet White did not do this thing.

Patsy RAmsey most likely did this thing in a rage and staged the scene to cover it up and John is aiding and abetting. I never believed that he molested her, BUT Rashomon, a knowledgeable poster on this case, has said that fibers from his shirt were found in the folds of JB's labia.

Now, I hadn't heard that, but since it comes from Rash, I do not doubt it. So now I am starting to think that John is involved in some kind of molestation. What else can I think. There is evidence of prior abuse that some forsenic doctors swear by.

I never believed that because I thought John would just not risk getting caught. I always believed S. Thomas' theory that the damage to JB was a kind of corporal punishment. Some punishment. Geez.

The maid said she heard Patsy yelling at JB in the bathroom all the time and JB yelling and crying.

I have to say this that I have a son and if I found myself yelling at him in the bathrrom on a regular basis, I would definitely seek some psychiatric help. That does not mean I did not discipline my son, I did. I just did not scream at him, and certainly not on a regular basis (there is something definitely wrong with that crap). And the fact that tlhis was going on regularly tells me that Patsy is very very capable of losing her extremely short temper especially if she were taking tranquilizers and I believe she was. She had to be. She had been through cancer. I know she had tranquilizers then and it is highly doubtful that she stopped. And from her CNN interview, she was taking quite a few.

Solace],

So now I am starting to think that John is involved in some kind of molestation.

The fibers found in JonBenet's genitalia matched fibers from John's expensive woolen shirt manufactured in israel.

Although this links him to the crime-scene, its possible that the fibers are there because he was the person who wiped JonBenet down, but then you have to ask why was it important to do this?

An interesting aspect is that the fibers that link both John and Patsy to the crime-scene originate from clothes each wore to the White's the previous evening, but it is only Patsy who wears the same clothes again, John elects for clean clothing and a shower!

.

angelwngs · Sep 17, 2006

UKGuy said:
Solace],

The fibers found in JonBenet's genitalia matched fibers from John's expensive woolen shirt manufactured in israel.

Although this links him to the crime-scene, its possible that the fibers are there because he was the person who wiped JonBenet down, but then you have to ask why was it important to do this?

An interesting aspect is that the fibers that link both John and Patsy to the crime-scene originate from clothes each wore to the White's the previous evening, but it is only Patsy who wears the same clothes again, John elects for clean clothing and a shower!
.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Patsy was questioned by LE at length about the regular family procedure of where dirty clothes were placed by family members.

Isn't it possible that John threw his dirty shirt off in the bathroom on top of a towel or some other item that was indeed used to wipe down JBR? Or maybe in some sick sadistic move his actual dirty black shirt was used to wipe down JBR? When the LE asked for the items worn that night to the party, the R's sent TWO black shirts and a jacket of Patsy's. I think one of the shirts was without a collar and the other had a collar. You know darn well they knew which shirt he wore that night to the White's, especially if it had a collar or not. He knew which one the LE was asking for. Why send two? Anyway, these were sent long after the 26th, and after they were already in Atlanta, if I remember correctly. There would have been plenty of time for new items to have been purchased or for through cleaning to have taken place.

PagingDrDetect · Sep 17, 2006

UKGuy said:
The fibers found in JonBenet's genitalia matched fibers from John's expensive woolen shirt manufactured in israel.

Although this links him to the crime-scene, its possible that the fibers are there because he was the person who wiped JonBenet down, but then you have to ask why was it important to do this?

An interesting aspect is that the fibers that link both John and Patsy to the crime-scene originate from clothes each wore to the White's the previous evening, but it is only Patsy who wears the same clothes again, John elects for clean clothing and a shower!

I've been toying with the idea that ALL of the staging was done by Patsy, and she wiped down JBR's privates with JR's shirt on purpose... to force him to go along with her scheme of pointing toward an intruder. If JR wasn't involved in this and slept through it all, Patsy would not have had any guarantee that he wouldn't point the finger at her his own self. I wonder if that shirt was left with the body and JR found it when he found the body the FIRST time and realized the implications of that shirt. Was that shirt something he stuffed in the golf bag he wanted so badly? To try to hide the fact that his shirt was involved? Could this be part of the reason why he was so aggitated and angry looking and didn't tell LE he found the body the FIRST time or was ever in the basement alone at all before the body was officially "found"? Was he wondering if Patsy was trying to frame him? Could this be part of the reason why he wanted to fly the family out of there so badly? So he could corner Patsy in private and find out what she did and what she was planning to do in regard to HIM?

I'm a bit on the fence as to how much JR was involved and when. :waitasec:

JMO8778 · Sep 17, 2006

PagingDrDetect said:
I've been toying with the idea that ALL of the staging was done by Patsy, and she wiped down JBR's privates with JR's shirt on purpose... to force him to go along with her scheme of pointing toward an intruder. If JR wasn't involved in this and slept through it all, Patsy would not have had any guarantee that he wouldn't point the finger at her his own self. I wonder if that shirt was left with the body and JR found it when he found the body the FIRST time and realized the implications of that shirt. Was that shirt something he stuffed in the golf bag he wanted so badly? To try to hide the fact that his shirt was involved? Could this be part of the reason why he was so aggitated and angry looking and didn't tell LE he found the body the FIRST time or was ever in the basement alone at all before the body was officially "found"? Was he wondering if Patsy was trying to frame him? Could this be part of the reason why he wanted to fly the family out of there so badly? So he could corner Patsy in private and find out what she did and what she was planning to do in regard to HIM?

I'm a bit on the fence as to how much JR was involved and when. :waitasec:

Good thoughts ! I hadn't thought of a lot of those things.
I've always wondered about PR's comment that 'we didn't mean for this to happen'.The toileting rage scenerio is beleiveable to me,but if JR wasn't involved somehow,I think her comment might have been "I didn't mean to do this", or "I didn't mean for this to happen" instead.The WE comment sounds an alarm to me.It even sounds like something might have been planned,imo.Not murder, but something else.
So along w/ the fibers found on JB,as well as his voice on the 911 call and the lies told then, I can't help but think he was involved somehow.

PagingDrDetect · Sep 18, 2006

JMO8778 said:
Good thoughts ! I hadn't thought of a lot of those things.
I've always wondered about PR's comment that 'we didn't mean for this to happen'.The toileting rage scenerio is beleiveable to me,but if JR wasn't involved somehow,I think her comment might have been "I didn't mean to do this", or "I didn't mean for this to happen" instead.The WE comment sounds an alarm to me.It even sounds like something might have been planned,imo.Not murder, but something else.
So along w/ the fibers found on JB,as well as his voice on the 911 call and the lies told then, I can't help but think he was involved somehow.

Yeah, that's why I'm on the fence. He had to have known SOMETHING by the time that 911 call was made. But I'm wondering how much did he really know and when did he really know it? I really think that before that 911 call was made, JR called his attorney or someone of influence, but I'm not sure how much he would have really known at that time... and maybe that was part of the reason for putting out an SOS before calling 911. From what I've learned of these people, I think all the way along each of them has been strictly acting to save their own individual rear ends... not each other and not for the family. It just so happens that to save their individual rears, they needed to act as a united front... but that didn't appear to happen that day, because even by the time they went to the Fernie's they still weren't acting as a united front.

It's a puzzlement. :waitasec:

UKGuy · Sep 18, 2006

angelwngs said:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Patsy was questioned by LE at length about the regular family procedure of where dirty clothes were placed by family members.

Isn't it possible that John threw his dirty shirt off in the bathroom on top of a towel or some other item that was indeed used to wipe down JBR? Or maybe in some sick sadistic move his actual dirty black shirt was used to wipe down JBR? When the LE asked for the items worn that night to the party, the R's sent TWO black shirts and a jacket of Patsy's. I think one of the shirts was without a collar and the other had a collar. You know darn well they knew which shirt he wore that night to the White's, especially if it had a collar or not. He knew which one the LE was asking for. Why send two? Anyway, these were sent long after the 26th, and after they were already in Atlanta, if I remember correctly. There would have been plenty of time for new items to have been purchased or for through cleaning to have taken place.

angelwngs,

I guess barring the exceptional either someone other than John used his shirt to wipe down JonBenet, or the fiber transfer has occurred during a sexual assault?

This latter explanation suggests John and JonBenet were alive in a common timeframe.

Now an important feature is that in either scenario John's shirt would not magic itself from his bedroom down to the basement.

So regardless of which scenario you select its very likely JonBenet was wiped down upstairs and possibly inside John's bedroom? Otherwise you have someone deciding to go and fetch an expenisve shirt to wipe down JonBenet.

So its possible to speculate that prior to her death JonBenet was in the same upstairs room as John, his bedroom?

Alternatively down in the basement, John simply used his shirt to wipe down JonBenet, since it was convenient, per occam this is a starting point, but still raises the question why?

So rather than speculating further e.g. JonBenet fell off John, hitting her head, during a sexual assault in his bedroom?

If you accept that the shirt fibers did not arrive on JonBenet accidentally then their presence suggests that John was awake when he said he was asleep, and assuming further that he wiped JonBenet down to remove forensic evidence, it may have been him that wiped the flashlight clean?

added:
So rather than toilet rage, its just as logical to consider sexual rage, and since both parents are linked to the crime scene, and that it can be demonstrated that the wine-cellar is a staged crime scene then the probability of a familial conspiracy is reinforced. That is John and Patsy were joint partners in the death and staging of JonBenet's homicide?

.

Eagle1 · Sep 18, 2006

calicocat said:
......

1) I remember reading about the douches, yeast infections, bladder problems, etc.

2) JonBenet must have been molested the day that the Ramsey's had their open house for Christmas. I believe that she was the one that tried to make the 911 call. Fleet White answered the door and told the police that a call was placed because he was worried about his mother's medicine? I think a decision was made at that point to kill JonBenet in order to silence her, and Fleet White and John took care of it Christmas night. Patsy did say that she went up to bed before John.

3) John could have hired someone to commit the murder and left a door or window open for them to get in. He and Fleet concocted the ransom note while Patsy wrote it.

4) Patsy tried to tell police that John was involved in the murder by mentioning his name over and over again in the ransom note.

5) Fleet and John came to a disagreement at the funeral regarding the murder and cover-up. Remember how they both went to find the body?

6) I can't get the picture of John Andrew Ramsey crying at JonBenet's grave out of my mind. It just makes me think that he knew what was going on and could have done something to stop it, but never did.

7) Has John Ramsey's ex-wife ever commented on the case? Was she aware of any pedophilish behavior in her husband?

Of course all the above are just my thoughts. Any comments?

As someone says later in this thread, it may not have a long shelf life. However, could we respectfully correct a few details?

1. Douches? I don't remember reading that. You have a source? Wow, that'd be really unusual.

2. JR's adult children said he never molested them, and he did have an affair with an adult woman, proving I guess that he wasn't a pedophile. But could their having to submit to the international ring, some of them busted just before the murder, have necessitated both parents taking the anxiety meds?

3. I believe it was Susan Stine who went to the door, who turned and "asked around the room" who'd made a 911 call, relayed FW's answer to the police w/out letting them in.

4. A pedophile may have been there, and if the R's had to submit to a powerful ring of them and cover for them, maybe the FW's also did?

I'm just having a hard time imagining why both the R's had to take anti-anxiety, anti-depression meds, and still left the children to sleep on a lower floor of the house. They were in denial that anything fatal would happen since they were cooperating?

In the picture that was made into an oil portrait, with the huge bow on the back of the head, JBR looked like a very plain little kid, not at all glamorous. I'm sure it's occurred to all of us who saw it, our kids were prettier. Naturally we think so. It took those garish costumes to put her into the role of pageant queen. Were her wins also dependent on whatever/whoever the R's were submitting to which made them need those meds even before the murder? And this began during a trip to Texas, when someone (Pam Griffith or Griffin?) said JBR seemed to have lost her innocence when they returned? The molestation began after that?

BBB167893 · Sep 18, 2006

"2. JR's adult children said he never molested them, and he did have an affair with an adult woman, proving I guess that he wasn't a pedophile."

I've posted this before. Just spitballing. But there's a difference between a true pedophile and a situational molester. A situational does it because the victim is "there."

Here's what I mean: in the space of a year, Beth died and Patsy was stricken. It looked like she might die. She didn't, not immediately, but their sex life suffered. He'd be destroyed in a divorce hearing if he got caught with another woman again, and since even young women like Beth could be struck down at any time, he needed someone "safe." Someone too young to do dangerous things. Someone who trusted him.

Eagle1, you've often pointed out that if he was molesting her, she wouldn't have been so sad when he was gone. I've given that a lot of thought. I was reading my encyclopedia of true crime and I came across a few cases where daughters who were molested by their fathers got to like it, horrible as that sounds. I swear I'm not making it up. After all, good or bad, there's no bond like the one between a father and a daughter. (Again, I'm speaking purely hypothetically!) Maybe that was a perverted version of "father-daughter" quality time. It's not that unthinkable.

To be perfectly honest, I can't figure John in this. Patsy is a raging storm, but him? He's an unfathomable black hole.

"And this began during a trip to Texas, when someone (Pam Griffith or Griffin?) said JBR seemed to have lost her innocence when they returned? The molestation began after that?"

Maybe. I think it was Judith Phillips.

JMO8778 · Sep 18, 2006

Eagle1 said:
3. I believe it was Susan Stine who went to the door, who turned and "asked around the room" who'd made a 911 call, relayed FW's answer to the police w/out letting them in.

In DOI,PR says that SS answered the door and after checking around ,sent police away after telling them nothing was wrong.I don't doubt she thought that but,I haven't seen anything that says FW relayed an answer to police.In DOI,PR says that FW 'apparently misdialed' as he was trying to get meds to his mom.Then she goes on to say that the 911 call still remains 'somewhat of a mystery', which leads me to beleive that 1-FW never said he misdialed,in fact I've never seen him say anything about it.. and 2-PR was trying to use that call to cast suspicion on someone at the party that night,even tho it very well could have been just a misdial.
I think I read somewhere that FW's mom was actually not in a nursing home and didn't need him to send her meds at the time? Does anyone recall that?
I think the R's knew they were going to get away with this (with the help of ppl higher up) and so they felt safe in using FW to tell lies that even FW knows to be false.
BTW,I don't think the R's ever had any intention of going to prison.I think they would have skipped the country had they been indicted.That's my gut feeling on it.

BBB167893 · Sep 18, 2006

"BTW,I don't think the R's ever had any intention of going to prison.I think they would have skipped the country had they been indicted.That's my gut feeling on it."

I agree. They could pal around with Roman Polanski and Ira Einhorn!

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