Something Else

On just about every thread and in every argument, those who are believers of Ramsey innocence and even those who claim they are still on the fence have gone through various phrases of "bad advice", etc. I have a question which will only apply to these posters as those of us who believe the Ramseys are involved would have way too much to say.

The Ramseys have stated that they have made "mistakes" and that there are things they would have done differently. They have never been specific about those "mistakes" or what they might have done differently.

The RST can't seem to bring themselves to say what the Ramseys themselves have said about their mistakes, etc. The only answers received when asked what mistakes they may have made have been something like this:

They slept too soundly
They complied with "bad advice" from ................(just about everyone)

I'm curious to know if those posters can name other areas of mistakes made by the Ramseys that are actual concrete mistakes OTHER than blaming others or nonsensical remarks about their sound sleeping.

I'm having one of those days where I could scream at the scapegoating of others for the Ramseys' behavior and actions, so I am curious to know what they think the mistakes are other than those above.

Assume for purposes of this thread that the Ramseys are adults with intelligence who are capable of making decisions all by themselves.

Barbara said:

Assume for purposes of this thread that the Ramseys are adults with intelligence who are capable of making decisions all by themselves.

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They are. Although I think that capacity was temporarily diminished by the emotional impact of the events of that day.

I think it would be better to compile a list of the mistakes the BPD and DA-Hunter made, however, that would ofcourse be a very much longer list! And neither the police nor the DA would have the excuse of 'emotional effect of having lost their daughter'.

But puting aside Linda Arndt's and Officer Donut's failings, let us look at the Ramsey's failings.

Being overly trusting of their attorneys? Is that a failing? John had no time to go to law school and then decide whether he would follow or reject their advice.

Patsy Ramsey calling the BPD to learn about progress in finding the murderer? Is that a failing? She was angry that there was no progress being made.

Losing their temper during interrogations? When you are dealing with stubborn and stupid people who insist on ignoring known pedophiles who were in the area and won't let you know anything about how the hunt for their daughter's murderer is going, its understandable that tempers may flare.

Allowing Burke to be illegally interrogated? I guess that could be considered a mistake too.

Promptly giving their phone records to the police rather than awaiting the cumbersom procedures for a subpoena? Is that a mistake?

Hiring a private investigator? Is that a mistake?

When I see responses such as the one above, I always wonder if the poster is being funny or incredibly naive. I believe it boils down to psychology and it would be interesting to know more about such posters and what makes them tick in their own *real* lives. Don't get me wrong, I am not asking for personal information from anyone but if anyone ever did such a study, it would be interesting.

I pause to reflect on people that I have met in my life who have appeared to view the world from a different vantage point than anyone else:-

Women who adandon their families to go and live in utter squalor outside a nuclear military base as a 'peace protest'.

People who blow up other people in the name of 'animal rights'.

A schoolchum of mine has two university degrees and who has never had a job. He is 42 years old and the reason he has never worked is because he refused to take any job that he considered to be beneath him. He expected to graduate and walk straight into a top executive position (I am NOT exaggerating). Of course no company would offer him such a job without experience and so the years went by and he became unemployable. No amount of talking to him would make him see sense. As far as he is concerned, he has been ill-done to but far from being a person of superior status with two degrees and a high-flying career, he is truly on the bottom of the heap and even those peers of ours who left school with no qualifications found employment which enabled them to make their way in the world, become home-owners and achieve a dignity that he will never achieve. Does he see it that way? No. He genuinely sees it as everyone else's fault that he has been a total failure.

There have always been people who will champion the cause of the underdog and so it should be. However, some cases are worthwhile and others are questionable. Take the mother of the man who raped and brutally murdered a 92 year old woman - she alone cannot see any wrong in her son whom she considers to be a 'good boy' and she despises the system which locked him away. Then there are the parents of the unruly boy who disrupts his class on a daily basis - depriving his peers of their education, yet his parents will complain to the school that their son is being picked on - they are incapable of or unwilling to see things from the other side.

Some people appear to lack an ability to see things from all angles and I don't pretend to understand that. I have dealt with Aspegers Syndrome - a high functioning autism and I know that sufferers are unable to think 'outside the box'. They cannot relate to others or to see how their actions affect others yet they can be brillliant in other ways.

There are two sides to every story. It seems to me that there are many people who can only see one side of the Ramsey story and who refuse or are simply unable to consider any other.

Here's one they made that should have been quite obvious at the time and may have caused a cascade of other mistakes. Actually it is a couple of closely related mistakes - don't get drunk when you have a family to protect and an 'intruder?' to find before he kills again. Don't get drugged out of your skull for the same reasons. Like, what were they thinking?

Excellent post! As one who goes out of my way to see both sides of any issue I too feel frustration when I encounter people who only see in black and white. It is ridiculous for some to keep repeating that the Ramseys were so grief stricken they could not function when clearly that was not the case. They were able to function quite well with regard to protecting themselves right from the get go yet were too grief stricken to assist the authorities. Hmmm strange. Being drunk and drugged to the eyeballs seems a strange way for people of intelligence and class to behave during the crucial initial stages of the investigation into their little girl's murder. Would any of us behave in this way? I doubt it. As for Burke being interviewed "illegally", can any of you imagine not wanting anyone involved to be of help if possible whether it be one of your kids or relatives? Their cause is not being helped by trying to convince others that their behavior was not questionable, it was. Whether this means they are guilty of something, I don't know. Arrogance is not a crime and perhaps they just felt all that was beneath them. I know that if my little girl were murdered there wouldn't be anything that would get in the way of my finding the pig who did it. Since there was nothing in their history to indicate that they could do such a thing, according to John, why did they appear to be covering their arses from the beginning?

The Ramsey's biggest mistake was pursuing the American Dream and succeeding each in their own way and together. They brought it on themselves. What goes up must come down. They are paying for their hubris. :clap:

Toth, to respond:

"They are. Although I think that capacity was temporarily diminished by the emotional impact of the events of that day."

For seven years?

"I think it would be better to compile a list of the mistakes the BPD and DA-Hunter made, however, that would ofcourse be a very much longer list! And neither the police nor the DA would have the excuse of 'emotional effect of having lost their daughter'."

Why? I don't think anyone here doesn't acknowledge all the mistakes made.

"But puting aside Linda Arndt's and Officer Donut's failings, let us look at the Ramsey's failings."

Good idea. I can't believe you typed the words Ramsey's and failings in the same sentence. Color me impressed!

"Being overly trusting of their attorneys? Is that a failing? John had no time to go to law school and then decide whether he would follow or reject their advice."

That's a no no Toth. That's once again, BLAMING OTHERS. Don't fool yourself, John made the decisions

"Patsy Ramsey calling the BPD to learn about progress in finding the murderer? Is that a failing? She was angry that there was no progress being made."

You're kidding again right? That would have been how many MONTHS later?

"Losing their temper during interrogations? When you are dealing with stubborn and stupid people who insist on ignoring known pedophiles who were in the area and won't let you know anything about how the hunt for their daughter's murderer is going, its understandable that tempers may flare."

I never faulted them for their loss of temper. Once again Toth, blaming others. How can they further the investigation without interviewing the family? You keep coming back to the Ramsey mistakes being made because of the BPD. Again, blaming others. Again, seeing as the Ramseys finally sat down after so many months, they were sober and emotionally better, why didn't they "gently" discuss their feelings with the BPD? Just plain silly

"Allowing Burke to be illegally interrogated? I guess that could be considered a mistake too."

This is a good one. They never allowed Burke to be interrogated. Burke was questioned without their knowledge. It's one of the RST's favorite chants. You can bet your bippy that if, on that day, the police would have asked to question Burke, the answer would have been NO. I am not sure what rationale they would use to accomplish this, but perhaps not to disturb Burke and his Nintendo.

"Promptly giving their phone records to the police rather than awaiting the cumbersom procedures for a subpoena? Is that a mistake?"

Here we agree. No mistake. Why wait for a subpoena that you know is coming? Why not turn them over and pat yourself on the back instead? Good move!

"Hiring a private investigator? Is that a mistake?"

Right again! No mistake there. They got their money's worth. They were hired to keep the Ramseys out of jail and they have earned their salary

What phone records are we talking about? The house phones or cell phones? Thanks!

I believe it was the house phone, but all records they had in their possesion were immediately turned over to their lawyers and the lawyers sent them to the DA without any subpoena or delay that would have been involved.

The Ramseys also voluntarily signed zillions of releases to allow the BPD access to such things as thier library record and their video rental records.

Toth said:

I believe it was the house phone, but all records they had in their possesion were immediately turned over to their lawyers and the lawyers sent them to the DA without any subpoena or delay that would have been involved.

The Ramseys also voluntarily signed zillions of releases to allow the BPD access to such things as thier library record and their video rental records.

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All things that the BPD would have gotten anyway. You know it, I know it, they knew it, their lawyers knew it. So why not be a hero and give it over knowing that someday, Toth will show those naysayers that the Ramseys were extremely helpful to LE and continue to pat them on the back when their own arms are too tired to do so.

Still want to know why there was apparently no record of phone calls on the cell phones for the month of December, 1996 when I believe there was phone call activity for previous months. Very convenient that the month of December had no calls. I really doubt that the Ramseys just did not use their cell phones during December. That is usually a busy month for shopping, parties, etc. And I don't believe for one minute J******'s explanation that the phones were lost. I believe I remember reading somewhere that cell phones were used during morning of December 26 so house phone would not be tied up. Would love to know what calls were made on those cell phones on December 25 & 26, 1996.



Above is strictly my own opinion of this case.

There were no calls made since the phone had been misplaced, that is why the cell phone records show no calls having been made. The company's records were not lost or altered, the records are intact and they show no calls having been made.

You mean if they cooperate you condemn them?
We already know what you do if they do not cooperate?
It seems they don't have much in the way of options.

Toth said:

You mean if they cooperate you condemn them?

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As soon as they do that, I'll let you know. It's been 7+ years and I personally don't hold out much hope.

Remember, giving LE the things they will get WITHOUT QUESTION is not cooperating. It is complying with the inevitable. Doing it before the court demands it gives people like you something to defend them with.

You are too bright Toth not to see the difference.

Can you please point me to a source for the cell phone/s being misplaced besides j****** just saying it? Thanks!

John Ramsey said it.

Toth said:

John Ramsey said it.

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Well there's the gospel for ya!

Yep! Thats Right.

Barbara said:

Well there's the gospel for ya!

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Yeah, from John Ramsey (aka Mr. Selective Memory) who can't remember his own flashlight, recognize the family's bowl and spoon, or remember his kid walking around in a pair of shoes with a compass on them.

Flashlights and tupperware look pretty much 'standard' and would be considered difficult to identify with particularity.