Australia - Michael, 52, & Kathryn Walicki, 15, stabbed to death, Sydney, 5 July 2007

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dingo said:
A Sydney woman murdered her father and sister last week.
Her parents were\are scientoligists and denied their daughter her medication.
This is just so senseless...the little sister was only 15.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=122354.

Sorry I spelt psych wrong and I cant fix it .
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This is a tragedy for the whole family, the attacker was sick and needed medication that her parent would not allow her to have, so without her medication she lost it and killed her father, sister and severly injured her mother, while I am not condoning her actions, she was mentally unstable and as such I feel she is to a victim, but she committed a crime so it is up to the justice system now as to what happens to her. I hope the mother recovers, but when she does when she finds out what has happened to the rest of her family she is going to need a lot of help, professionally and support from her friends and other family members.

I truly believe that the whole family were victims.
 
I agree. This woman is a victim too. Once she's in the penal system I would think they would give her the meds she needs. Can you imagine the guilt she's going to feel once she's mentally stable and realizes what she's done?

Wonder what Tom Cruise would have to say about this?
 
lizzybeth said:
I agree. This woman is a victim too. Once she's in the penal system I would think they would give her the meds she needs. Can you imagine the guilt she's going to feel once she's mentally stable and realizes what she's done?

Wonder what Tom Cruise would have to say about this?
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Why do some religions not allow their sick members to receive conventional medical attention or medication, I remember as a little girl, these people knocked on our door and were talking to my mom, when dad heard he went to the door and asked them to leave, I never found out for a long time why, but mum told me they were Jehoviah Witnesses and that they do not believe in blood transfusions. The poor young woman whom committed this horrible crime was obviously not of sound mind, it is not an excuse as some people do plead insanity to lessen their punishment, but her condition was known and she was not receiving the meds that would help her. Her father and sister are dead and her mother in a serious condition. As you said LizzyBeth I hope wherever this young woman is placed she is given the medical attention she needs. But when she realises what has happened will she cope with that. This is such a tragedy for all involved.
 
Shazza, Scientology isn't a religion, it's a cult, founded with crazed, evil intent. :twocents: Read the link I included, it's a more truthful biography of the founder of Scientology, and the Scientologists want to obliterate it.
 
she was 25???
NO ONE MADE HER do anything. She was an adult and in reality made her own choices.

I do not agree with her parents choices or religion but at 25??
 
You left out "as a 25 year old member of a cult" in your post Am. ;) She didn't have the power to choose anymore, the techniques they use to "audit" you take that ability away and leave you in a permanently suggestible state. Cite. See the second section "The Harm it Does a Person". (ETA: Cite,which has credible sources cited.) (ETA2: Cite.)
 
KatK said:
Shazza, Scientology isn't a religion, it's a cult, founded with crazed, evil intent. :twocents: Read the link I included, it's a more truthful biography of the founder of Scientology, and the Scientologists want to obliterate it.
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I'm no fan of Scientology but "crazed, evil intent" -- if you mean those words literally -- is the same sort of religious mumbo jumbo as "auditing."

"Cynical intent," "greedy intent," maybe, as Ron Hubbard had long talked of the financial advantages of incorporating as a church and we all have a right to be suspicious of that.

But anyone who interviews those who leave a religion, as the link you gave us does, will come up with a litany of alleged abuses. Look at the some of the comments here at WS that come from ex-Catholics. That doesn't mean all the claims are false, but we are gullible if we take them at face value.

This is a terrible tragedy and surely Scientologist ideas must share the blame. But the killer is an adult, one with baggage like all of us, but an adult nonetheless.
 
KatK said:
Shazza, Scientology isn't a religion, it's a cult, founded with crazed, evil intent. :twocents: Read the link I included, it's a more truthful biography of the founder of Scientology, and the Scientologists want to obliterate it.
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I was under the belief that Scientology was a religion, thankyou for setting me right. But whatever Scientology is, the 25 year old woman who committed this crime suffered too because of her parents beliefs. She is an adult and therefore responisble for her actions, of course she should be punished, but they would have to take into account her state of mind.
 
Nova said:
I'm no fan of Scientology but "crazed, evil intent" -- if you mean those words literally -- is the same sort of religious mumbo jumbo as "auditing."

"Cynical intent," "greedy intent," maybe, as Ron Hubbard had long talked of the financial advantages of incorporating as a church and we all have a right to be suspicious of that.

But anyone who interviews those who leave a religion, as the link you gave us does, will come up with a litany of alleged abuses. Look at the some of the comments here at WS that come from ex-Catholics. That doesn't mean all the claims are false, but we are gullible if we take them at face value.

This is a terrible tragedy and surely Scientologist ideas must share the blame. But the killer is an adult, one with baggage like all of us, but an adult nonetheless.
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Read chapters 16 to 22 of the book I linked particularily then get back to me. He did all kinds of drugs HEAVILY, and admitted this in his own words late in his life. Read this Wikipedia article (From the Scientology section on down) for a quicker summary. What else do you call preying on the vunerable to get rich, subjugating everyone, but especially women, ordering beatings and other cruel punishments, and putting yourself forth as an infalliable God Figure?!

Wikipedia said:
A Reader's Digest article of May 1980 quoted Hubbard as saying in the 1940s "Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion."[75][76]
According to The Visual Encyclopedia of Science Fiction, ed. Brian Ash, Harmony Books, 1977:
"... [Hubbard] began making statements to the effect that any writer who really wished to make money should stop writing and develop [a] religion, or devise a new psychiatric method. Harlan Ellison's version (Time Out, UK, No 332) is that Hubbard is reputed to have told [John W.] Campbell, "I'm going to invent a religion that's going to make me a fortune. I'm tired of writing for a penny a word." Sam Moskowitz, a chronicler of science fiction, has reported that he himself heard Hubbard make a similar statement, but there is no first-hand evidence."
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Wikipedia said:
He was attended by "Commodore's Messengers," teenaged girls dressed in white hot pants who waited on him hand and foot, bathing and dressing him and even catching the ash from his cigarettes.[1] He had frequent screaming tantrums and instituted brutal punishments such as incarceration in the ship's filthy chain-locker for days or weeks at a time and "overboarding," in which errant crew members were blindfolded, bound and thrown overboard, dropping up to 40 ft. into the cold sea,[1] hoping not to hit the side of the ship with its sharp barnacles on the way down.[1][78] Some of these punishments, such as imprisonment in the chain-locker, were applied to children as well as to adults.[1]
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Wikipedia said:
A letter[79] Hubbard wrote to his third wife, Mary Sue, when he was in Las Palmas around 1967: "I’m drinking lots of rum and popping pinks and greys...". The author of an unauthorized Hubbard biography also says that "John McMasters told me that on the flagship Apollo in the late sixties he witnessed Hubbard's drug supply. 'It was the largest drug chest I had ever seen. He had everything!'". This was confirmed by Gerald Armstrong through Virginia Downsborough who said in 1967 he returned to Las Palmas totally debilitated from drugs.[80]
We found him a hotel in Las Palmas and the next day I went back to see if he was all right, because he did not seem to be too well. When I went in to his room, there were drugs of all kinds everywhere. He seemed to be taking about sixty thousand different pills. I was appalled, particularly after listening to all his tirades against drugs and the medical profession. There was something very wrong with him... My main concern was to try and get him off all the pills he was on and persuade him that there was still plenty for him to do.​
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Wikipedia said:
Fair Game" was introduced by Hubbard, and incites Scientologists to use criminal behavior, deception and exploitation of the legal system to resist "Suppressive Persons", i.e. people or groups that "actively seeks to suppress or damage Scientology or a Scientologist by Suppressive Acts." He defined it "Fair Game" as:​
ENEMY — SP Order. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed.[92] Use of the term "Fair Game" was canceled in 1968, with Hubbard stating that "The practice of declaring people FAIR GAME will cease. FAIR GAME may not appear on any Ethics Order. It causes bad public relations. This P/L does not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling of an SP."[93] The practice was continued, as Hubbard noted that his statement did not cancel the "fair game treatment" of Suppressive People as can be seen in the case of Paulette Cooper.​
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I stand by my description.​
 
Shazza said:
I was under the belief that Scientology was a religion, thankyou for setting me right. But whatever Scientology is, the 25 year old woman who committed this crime suffered too because of her parents beliefs. She is an adult and therefore responisble for her actions, of course she should be punished, but they would have to take into account her state of mind.
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I should think so. When I said the killer was an adult, I was not arguing that her religious training had no bearing on the case. But evidence for the "brainwashing" of adults by cults has proved nearly impossible to determine scientifically.

There is NO precise, scientific definition for a "religion" versus a "cult." Germany considers Scientology a cult; the U.S. offers it the protection of a "religion." Scientology isn't different in the two countries; the two countries' ideas about religious freedom are different.

Likewise "cult" v. "religion" is almost always in the eye of a the beholder. Generally speaking, older religions consider new ones "cults."

Christianity certainly began as a cult. The Mormons here in the U.S. were considered a "cult" in the 1800s, are considered a mainstream religion today by most.

These words are highly emotional, but largely subjective.
 
KatK said:
I stand by my description.​
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Actually, I've read many books on Scientology. I took a course on it in college.

If your point is that there is plenty of evidence that Ron Hubbard was a con man, in the early days, and suffered from drug-induced psychosis later on, I agree. I've already said that.

But there is ample evidence that Joseph Smith was a con man, too. King David and Muhammad weren't exactly choir boys. St. Paul was no fun at a picnic; I think we can say that with certainty. Nor was Martin Luther or any number of other Christian leaders. And if we had any reliable historical evidence on the character of Jesus, who knows what we might think of him?

The point remains: a "cult" + time = mainstream religion.

And we can't fairly judge any religion based solely on the testimony of apostates. If we're going to use body counts as our evidence, Scientology has a long way to go before it catches up with Christianity or Islam.
 
Amraann said:
she was 25???
NO ONE MADE HER do anything. She was an adult and in reality made her own choices.

I do not agree with her parents choices or religion but at 25??
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Thank you. This was a grown woman. No one made her kill her family. If she wanted/needed psychiatric drugs, she could have obtained them on her own.

The article only references her parents being scientologists, not her.
 
eleven said:
Thank you. This was a grown woman. No one made her kill her family. If she wanted/needed psychiatric drugs, she could have obtained them on her own.

The article only references her parents being scientologists, not her.
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Don't you think it's a fair assumption she was at least raised in that church? And that being raised with those beliefs might have something to do with her not taking medication? I don't suppose we know, but it's at least a possibility.

I don't mean to give the impression that I am pro-Scientology. The Scientologist dogma all sounds like bunk to me.

But if the same woman had been a devout Christian and killed her family members because she believed Jesus was speaking to her through her toaster, we would have just said she was obviously disturbed, not that Christianity was to blame.
 
When people basically believe Star Trek is real and coming (=scientology) how can anyone still call it a religion? How can anyone even take it seriously?

ETA: from the article: The woman told Dr Cross that her feelings started to worsen three weeks before the killings and that her parents allowed her to restart her anti-psychotic medication as it helped her to sleep.

So that basically blows her defense to pieces. Hate to be her lawyer!
 
dingo said:
The latest article.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=122354
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This has nothing to do with religion, cults or whatever anyone wants to call it, this woman was mentally unstable whether she was into any religion or not, she lost the plot and killed her family and seriously injured her mother. What happens to her next is up to the justice system and hopefully they will allow her to get the medical attention she needs.
 
Nova said:
Don't you think it's a fair assumption she was at least raised in that church? And that being raised with those beliefs might have something to do with her not taking medication? I don't suppose we know, but it's at least a possibility.

I don't mean to give the impression that I am pro-Scientology. The Scientologist dogma all sounds like bunk to me.

But if the same woman had been a devout Christian and killed her family members because she believed Jesus was speaking to her through her toaster, we would have just said she was obviously disturbed, not that Christianity was to blame.
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Nope Nova I would not...
Its all the same to me.

The key word in your post to me is DEVOUT
In my mind that is as good as being brainwashed.
I would say that ANYONE who believes that crap devoutly is "obviously disturbed"

As far as far assumption goes Nova I know how I was raised and rallied against it as I assume you did too (based on your posts)
So despite this womens upbringing she could have chosen to over come it.
 
Nova said:
I'm no fan of Scientology but "crazed, evil intent" -- if you mean those words literally -- is the same sort of religious mumbo jumbo as "auditing."

"Cynical intent," "greedy intent," maybe, as Ron Hubbard had long talked of the financial advantages of incorporating as a church and we all have a right to be suspicious of that.

But anyone who interviews those who leave a religion, as the link you gave us does, will come up with a litany of alleged abuses. Look at the some of the comments here at WS that come from ex-Catholics. That doesn't mean all the claims are false, but we are gullible if we take them at face value.

This is a terrible tragedy and surely Scientologist ideas must share the blame. But the killer is an adult, one with baggage like all of us, but an adult nonetheless.
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I don't want to appear to be nit picking about words, buttttttttt, "Cynical and greedy intent," as you have pointed out is evil. Greedy = Greed =

I Timothy 6:10: For the love of money is the root of all evil.

I won't compromise, Scientology has no foundation. IMO, Most of the people involved in this organized group are looking for sense of belonging that they haven't found in their personal lives like family, or a God based belief system.

I feel our lives should be centered around our salvation, love, healing, unitedness, etc...
 
This woman DID take medications, both psychiatric and some other kind - I'm not buying the whole "Scientology didn't allow her to take it" angle. I think she didn't like the side effects ("made her feel anxious and depressed") and I'm curious why the private psychiatrist she was supposedly seeing didn't try her on a different anti-depressant. I don't approve of Scientology, but I don't think they're at fault for this one.

According to Dr Cross's report, instead of receiving follow-up treatment by Bankstown Hospital's mental health team, the woman had instead seen a private psychiatrist as well as a psychologist.

She also was prescribed an anti-depressant as well as an anti-psychotic treatment that she took until January this year, which made her feel anxious, and depressed. She also experienced poor sleep and felt unsafe at home.

"She stated that her parents did not want her to take the prescribed medication she had been on in 2006, and apparently started her on medication they got from America - which was not psychiatric in nature," Dr Cross said.

The woman told Dr Cross that her feelings started to worsen three weeks before the killings and that her parents allowed her to restart her anti-psychotic medication as it helped her to sleep.
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Source: 9msn
 
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