Body Removal

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Arielle

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I was just reading a post from a thread on the Blagg case. LovelyPigeon brought up a very interesting point about bodies being removed. She said that early on in the Hargon case, it was assumed that if the bodies were taken from the home, then it must not have been a family member or something to that effect. Whereas in the Blagg case, the fact that the bodies were removed from the home seemed to point to the father as being the one who committed the crime. She is pointing out the inconsistency with these two cases.

So, naturally being a JonBenet fanatic, I immediately thought of JonBenet being left in the house. I want to know what everyone here thinks on this point alone. Would it be more likely for an intruder to leave a body or a family member? I want to try to disassociate this point from the Ransom Note. I know that will be hard to do, but I'm curious about this. For this question, please ignore the fact that a body AND a Ransom Note were left behind. I am just curious about the body.

Thanks.

Arielle

PS Lovely Pigeon, if I have misunderstood what you were trying to say, I appologize abjectly! feel free to beat me about the head and shoulders with Jayelles kipper.
 
Uh, 'scuse me. There IZZZ the possiblity that the body was not "left" at all, but rather PLACED there, and not for the purpose of hiding either.
 
Even if we leave out the ransom note....If an intruder killed her and wanted to leave the body, an intruder likely would have left it out for all to see, not hide it in a remote spot of the house.
 
Arielle said:
Would it be more likely for an intruder to leave a body or a family member? I want to try to disassociate this point from the Ransom Note.
Click to expand...

If you leave out the ransom note, then you completely change the intent of the crime as a kidnapping. If it wasn't an attempted kidnapping, then the odds that an intruder or a family member would leave the body are the same.

Why? Because it was Christmas and nobody had a normal and predictable schedule. Most people didn't have to get up early and go to work. The killer (or person staging the crime) made absolutely the right move in not trying to remove the body. He/she had no way of knowing who they might run into that was coming home late from a Christmas party. No way of knowing if any neighbors were staying up until the wee hours of the morning because it was a holiday.
 
Shylock said:
If you leave out the ransom note, then you completely change the intent of the crime as a kidnapping. If it wasn't an attempted kidnapping, then the odds that an intruder or a family member would leave the body are the same.

Why? Because it was Christmas and nobody had a normal and predictable schedule. Most people didn't have to get up early and go to work. The killer (or person staging the crime) made absolutely the right move in not trying to remove the body. He/she had no way of knowing who they might run into that was coming home late from a Christmas party. No way of knowing if any neighbors were staying up until the wee hours of the morning because it was a holiday.
Click to expand...

December 26 is not a holiday. Unless it's a weekend, most people have to get up and go to work on the 26th.

JMO
 
If I went to someone's house and killed them (either on purpose or accidently, as part of a robbery) I think I would tend towards leaving the body and high-tailing it out of there. If I killed someone in my family my decision would probably depend on how much blood etc there was. A 'clean' scene I would probably want the body gone so dealing with police questions would be simpler. If I thought there was potential evidence at the scene that I couldn't clean up I might try and come up with a story to account for the body. It would also depend on how knowledgeable I was about forensics.
 
There was a light dusting of snow that night. The temperatures were around 10 degrees and the dusting covered everything for a short while, but soon melted due to residual heat in the ground. The heavy crusted snow that was already on the ground in patchy places remained.

IMO the body was intended to be removed from the house and stashed somewhere, such as in a neighbor's back yard. That would make it look like a bonafide kidnapping. But when the time came to carry the body out of the house the perp(s) looked outside and the ground was completely covered with the dusting of snow. They couldn't carry out their plan without foot prints in the snow showing their tracks from the house and back again.

The perps didn't know the dusting would melt by sun up, so they were forced to leave the body in the house. The timing of the snowfall seemed almost spiritual -- trapping the killers in the house with the victim.

JMO
 
If the intruder was a photographer,he may have wanted the windowless room to keep odd flashes from perhaps alerting a neighbor. When he finished ,he had no reason to do anymore than leave her in that same windowless room. Didn't something suggest this? Wasn't Steve having a "hissy" over Hunter suggesting a photographer's tripod as the instrument for the head blow?
Who buys black duct tape? Isn't silver the norm everywhere? Black gaffers tape is used for the stage and photography.....IMO
 
Arielle, I'm not sure which post of mine over there that you mean. In case you wondered, I'm not LPModerator, either--I'm just plain LovelyPigeon/LP.

I did write this on Feb 21 in the Hargon forum:

Statistics would indicate that Michael is most likely responsible for his wife & son's disappearance--and his own. (I hope that isn't the case.) The disinherited adopted cousin is probably also an early focus of suspicion by police
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.

It turned out that statistics didn't help solve that case, as all three of them were killed and their bodies taken away. You probably already know that a cousin has been arrested for their murders.
 
BlueCrab said:
December 26 is not a holiday. Unless it's a weekend, most people have to get up and go to work on the 26th.
Click to expand...

Not where I live. Most people have off between Christmas and New Years. I suppose it depends on what you do for a living. But isn't that my whole point--there was no way of knowing just who was doing what... It was far from a predictable week/work day.
 
sissi said:
Who buys black duct tape? Isn't silver the norm everywhere? Black gaffers tape is used for the stage and photography.....IMO
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Patsy bought it. It's used on the back of picture and paint frames. The same black duct was found on a framed painting in the Ramsey home. When tested, that tape was from a different mill run.
 
Arielle said:
For this question, please ignore the fact that a body AND a Ransom Note were left behind. I am just curious about the body.

Thanks.

Arielle
.
Click to expand...

I don't think you CAN ignore a vital piece of the crime scene and assess the crime from that angle. Sorry, but that makes no sense.

The fact is that the child's dead and abused body was left in her home.
She was only 6 yrs old. We can rule out boyfriends and that kind of thing.
Her "world" was fairly small and she depended on her parents to create her
"world."
You must also look at HOW the body was left. Was is abused and discarded carelessly (indicating a stranger) - OR - was it "placed" (yes - on a blanket)
and "cared for" (yes - pants pulled back up and body wrapped carefully in her blanket on top of a blanket to protect her from the dusty/moldy floor beneath)

There is absolutely NO indication in the evidence at that scene of her body that this crime was committed/staged by anyone OTHER than someone who cared about her and was woefully sorry and remorseful of what had happened to her.

Since her "world" was so small - it is easy to identify those who "loved" her and cared about her. It is in that small world of hers you will find who ended her life and tried to cover it up.
 
sissi said:
If the intruder was a photographer,he may have wanted the windowless room to keep odd flashes from perhaps alerting a neighbor. When he finished ,he had no reason to do anymore than leave her in that same windowless room. Didn't something suggest this? Wasn't Steve having a "hissy" over Hunter suggesting a photographer's tripod as the instrument for the head blow?
Who buys black duct tape? Isn't silver the norm everywhere? Black gaffers tape is used for the stage and photography.....IMO
Click to expand...

A photographer can take pictures in the dark with the appropriate film speed or optical settings. Flash distorts color and provides unrealstic skin tones. Never heard of duct tape being used by photographers, is that if a camera bag gets ripped?
 
John Douglas in Mindhunter, Chapter 15, Hurting the Ones We Love, says this:

But the crime had too many staging elements, which made me lean toward the second type [of perp]: someone who knew the victim well and therefore wanted to divert attention from himself. The only reason a killer would have felt the need to hide the body on the premises was what we classify as a "personal cause homicide." Mindhunter, paperback, p. 289.

Of course, that was before Douglas met the Ramseys, er the Ramseys' cash. He made an exception for them... lol.
 
BlueCrab said:
December 26 is not a holiday. Unless it's a weekend, most people have to get up and go to work on the 26th.

JMO
Click to expand...

But Blue, It was a holiday for the Ramseys. They had the older childrens Christmas to consider and Patsy wasn't crazy about the trip right?

John did say in POLICE FILES that Patsy said "Thank goodness we have the ransom note and he said Why? She replied,Well its evidence!! ( Not an exact qoute but effective)

Back on main topic ----- I do believe Patsy wrote the note , so it must have been a family member :sick: I have never wanted to believe this about Patsy Ramsey.

I agree about the dusting of Snow Blue.

I think if it was an intruder he would have tried to take the body hence, the suitcase? No likely....
SisterSocks
 
I have always felt that the body was left in the house to be removed when the police left to search for the "kidnappers". When this did not happen it thru a monkey wrench into the works so the body had to be "found" because I dont think the R's could stand the pressure of having the police right there with them any more. I have also felt that if things went as planed there would be a new well cared for rock garden in a back yard in Charlevoix now with pretty flowers and statues of Jesus and angles.
 
They would have had to have known the police would stay, at least one, to moniter the phones. Anyone watching "Ransom"---or any kidnapping movie for that matter would have known.
 
Was PR very histrionic? Very dramatic? From reading PMPT, I have gathered if PR was to do anything, it was to be overdone. Always more than necessary, too much to some. That also applies to the sexual staging and the garrote. I am beginning to think PR actually committed the murder, then JR found out after the fact. I am not even sure he helped with the staging, I just don't know.
 
The black tape on the back of "several portraits" was tracked down to the "Boulder portrait framer, who confirmed that the duct tape on the picture was his and that he bought his tape at McGuckin's...we spent a year chasing something that led to a dead end. The tape on the picture and the tape on the victim came from two different rolls." -Steve Thomas' book, pp253-4
 
LovelyPigeon said:
The black tape on the back of "several portraits" was tracked down to the "Boulder portrait framer, who confirmed that the duct tape on the picture was his and that he bought his tape at McGuckin's...we spent a year chasing something that led to a dead end. The tape on the picture and the tape on the victim came from two different rolls." -Steve Thomas' book, pp253-4
Click to expand...
Mystery solved... Thanks LP. I took a quick look for that quote and couldn't find it.
 
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