John cut JBR down?

Hey,

I wa snooping around on the web today and believe it or not JMK has his own website. I was checking out the FAQ section and ran across this. Has anyone ever heard this?

LKL Interview

KING: Have you ever shown an interest the in the JonBenet Ramsey case?

WALSH: You know, we were asked to do that case a year afterward to try to help the Boulder police, you know, get a couple tips on it. But I think everybody knows that the case was compromised by bad police work in the beginning. I'm not the first one to say that and I'm a great supporter of law enforcement.

I mean, you are a detective and you go to a kidnapping of a high -- prominent family in a very wealthy area, and then, you know, police work 101, you clear the house and you clear the crime scene. She allowed the father and his friend to search the house. So he cuts down JonBenet, who is hanging down there. He compromised the crime scene, whether he had anything to do with it or he had nothing to do with it, he cut down his daughter in the crime scene with the DNA.

KING: So there's nothing you can do to help in a situation...

WALSH: You know, we've talked about it a couple of times because there were 200 people in that house at Christmas parties the day before. And I've found over the years it's never your trusted maid. It's a crack-addicted boyfriend that gets the key and comes in and robs your house. You know, it always someone affiliated in that area. I always hope that we would, you know, get a tip on that case, that someone would come forward. But I truly think because of the police work, that this case will never be solved.

Hi Blondie,
I think the general consensus is that John Walsh got it wrong. Although what he said is VERY interesting......I don't think he knows as much about the case as some of us WS'ers do (I'm not including myself --I'm still learning all the little details).

I think he did get it wrong. I've read a lot on this case and then it gets depressing so I get away from it for a while....but I keep coming back.
Anyway, this is the first I've ever read about it. Seems if it were true I would have read it somewhere before.

Just interesting. I had thought that John Walsh wanted to do and America's Most Wanted epsiode, but it was refused. Geez, who really knows!

I did find this thread dealing with the position of JB's arms:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2850&highlight=john+walsh

Blondieskatz said:

I think he did get it wrong. I've read a lot on this case and then it gets depressing so I get away from it for a while....but I keep coming back.
Anyway, this is the first I've ever read about it. Seems if it were true I would have read it somewhere before.

Just interesting. I had thought that John Walsh wanted to do and America's Most Wanted epsiode, but it was refused. Geez, who really knows!

Click to expand...

You are right, the Ramsey's refused to let AMW do a story on JBR, which I find ODD!!! If your child had of been murdered, GOD FORBID....wouldn't YOU want their story told on AMW in hopes of finding her killer? Yeah....me too.

Blondieskatz said:

Hey,

I wa snooping around on the web today and believe it or not JMK has his own website. I was checking out the FAQ section and ran across this. Has anyone ever heard this?

LKL Interview

KING: Have you ever shown an interest the in the JonBenet Ramsey case?

WALSH: You know, we were asked to do that case a year afterward to try to help the Boulder police, you know, get a couple tips on it. But I think everybody knows that the case was compromised by bad police work in the beginning. I'm not the first one to say that and I'm a great supporter of law enforcement.

I mean, you are a detective and you go to a kidnapping of a high -- prominent family in a very wealthy area, and then, you know, police work 101, you clear the house and you clear the crime scene. She allowed the father and his friend to search the house. So he cuts down JonBenet, who is hanging down there. He compromised the crime scene, whether he had anything to do with it or he had nothing to do with it, he cut down his daughter in the crime scene with the DNA.

KING: So there's nothing you can do to help in a situation...

WALSH: You know, we've talked about it a couple of times because there were 200 people in that house at Christmas parties the day before. And I've found over the years it's never your trusted maid. It's a crack-addicted boyfriend that gets the key and comes in and robs your house. You know, it always someone affiliated in that area. I always hope that we would, you know, get a tip on that case, that someone would come forward. But I truly think because of the police work, that this case will never be solved.

Click to expand...

He got that all wrong...if John had of found his daughter that way and had cut her down, he would have mentioned that little "tidbit" in at least ONE of his interviews. And to be quite honest...I am totally RDI....but, if the Ramsey's had of wanted the intruder theory to be more believable, then...they should have "went" with that story of her hanging up by her arms, and John cutting her down, instead of her being found on the floor, wrapped/swaddled like a "papoose" (Papoose is the word that John, himself uses, in his interview...to describe how the blanket was around her).

Right. There are 2 ways this works: One is if JR found her suspended in some way early that morning, cut her down, and then wrapped her up to be "found" again later. Remember what we know about livor mortis, too. The pattern of blood settling becomes fixed after a short while, and when the body is moved before it becomes fixed, a subsequent pattern will develop, along with the first. So, if she died while suspended, she would have had to be cut down soon after she died, because the livor pattern that WAS seen is in keeping with the way she was "found" at 1pm -lying on her back, arms tied up over her head, head slightly turned to the right- livor on the right side of the face and on her back.
OR (and I am really not so sure about this) if she was suspended while alive as part of a sexual abuse/sexual bondage scenario. Then the scream comes from JBR either as the cord is tightened and released or as she is being vaginally penetrated, and the head bash comes as a reaction to her scream, to silence her quickly.
This second scenario puts an even more sinister and horrifying spin on what is already a disgusting and disturbing crime. It indicates that the primary cause of the strangulation WAS the garrotte, and she was alive at the time, as well as the skull fracture resulting from a deliberate bash with a weapon (a bat, golf club, log grabber- like the one PHOTOGRAPHED on the wineceller floor) This is far more horrifying than the first version:
JBR dying accidentally as the result of a rage attack by a parent and then having her corpse staged to look like a murder is bad enough. The strangulation occurs accidentally with the twisting of her shirt, and the skull fracture occurs when she is slammed into something hard enough to do that damage (a tub or sink edge or faucet, doorknob, etc). The garrotte is made to hide the initial method of strangulation.
Does JR seem sleazy enough to be responsible for the hanging/abuse/garrotting? Yes. He does.
Does PR? No. She is an obsessive, neurotic controlling stage mother, but I can't see her participating in that event, as well as covering up for who might have....unless it was her son. Not for JR or JAR. I don't think she'd have covered up for him, fancy lifestyle or not.

But the garrote wasn't functional as a garrote,was it?

What prevents me from thinking JR did it is that I don't think he would have allowed a drugged-up Patsy to appear on national tv if he did it,or if she thought he might have.He seemed to be more in the position of damage control,as if he allowed Patsy to go on tv because he knew she'd never tell on herself.

It's been said that arresting Patsy would have caused her to start talking...I'm not so sure about that.I think her lawyers would have told her to 'be quiet,we will get you out of here,it's just temporary'.And I think she would have listened.Even so,I think she would have preferred to stay in prison, trying to appear the poor wronged victim of LE,even to the day of her death, rather than admit she killed her own daughter.I think she was all about reputation,or at least,that would been more important to her than the lavish lifestyle.
JR I am not so sure about.I think he would have turned on Patsy and confessed what he knew asap,if he'd even been behind bars for even one day.I don't think he would have had any tolerance for doing time for a crime she committed.But that's JMO,as I think Patsy was the main perp.

JM08778, I have to agree with you. I think it was Patsy that killed her daughter. As for John maybe he went along because he had already lost one daughter and now his other daughter is dead. If he had told on Patsy he would have lost his wife, and not to mention how it would have ruined his reputation! Still, I wouldn't care. I just can't imagine covering for someone who has killed my daughter "accident" or not.

As far as the JBR being tied up, maybe that had happened ealier before her death. Seems some of the statements JR makes are confused as to what happened after she died and when the actual event occured. JMO

Also, JR had his son BR to think about. If PR had been jailed, and a long, drawn out trial had ensued, it would have been very hard on the boy. His sister's death didn't seem to affect him ONE BIT. But this was a kid who needed his mother. I doubt JR had much to do with BR, nor did he strike me as the type to be "Mr. Mom". I can see JR covering for his wife, especially if it WAS an accident, and he also knew he had friends in high places to get them out of it.

DeeDee249 said:

Also, JR had his son BR to think about. If PR had been jailed, and a long, drawn out trial had ensued, it would have been very hard on the boy. His sister's death didn't seem to affect him ONE BIT. But this was a kid who needed his mother. I doubt JR had much to do with BR, nor did he strike me as the type to be "Mr. Mom". I can see JR covering for his wife, especially if it WAS an accident, and he also knew he had friends in high places to get them out of it.

Click to expand...

That makes sense Dee dee..JR seemed to be the type to have Patsy take care of the homefront,ie-everything else,while he went off to make more money.That seemed to be his main concern.
I gathered that much from him not going on the chemo trips w. Patsy..he was more concerned with business.She could take care of herself as far as he was concerned.As long as he had a chance to keep business matters going,that was more important.

Then again, you can always consider the fact that John didn't actually have anything to do with it. Maybe he had his suspicions after reading the ransom note that Patsy was involved or something happened that made him suspect Patsy that morning. But, he didn't know anything for sure. Could be the reason they were so "distant" from each other that morning (as observed by police and the victims advocates).

I can't believe or should I say I don't want to believe a parent would do this. So, I think it was an accident and then Patsy went into to overdrive to cover it up. Maybe, John couldn't accept or face the possibilty that Patsy could actually do something like this. I think if he didn't know, she would never have actually come right out and told him she did it. Afterall, it is too horrible!

Blondieskatz said:

Then again, you can always consider the fact that John didn't actually have anything to do with it. Maybe he had his suspicions after reading the ransom note that Patsy was involved or something happened that made him suspect Patsy that morning. But, he didn't know anything for sure. Could be the reason they were so "distant" from each other that morning (as observed by police and the victims advocates).

I can't believe or should I say I don't want to believe a parent would do this. So, I think it was an accident and then Patsy went into to overdrive to cover it up. Maybe, John couldn't accept or face the possibilty that Patsy could actually do something like this. I think if he didn't know, she would never have actually come right out and told him she did it. Afterall, it is too horrible!

Click to expand...

These are worth repeating.

"Then again, you can always consider the fact that John didn't actually have anything to do with it."

"Could be the reason they were so "distant" from each other that morning (as observed by police and the victims advocates)."

"I think if he didn't know, she would never have actually come right out and told him she did it."


Put yourself in John's shoes that morning. Patsy is on the brink of a complete breakdown and if that happens she could say something and the charade would be over. But John makes no attempt to isolate or guard her that morning when she is the most vulnerable.

The only conclusion you can reach from this is that Patsy wasn't a threat to John. Patsy couldn't blurt out something and put John in jail. When things were red-hot that morning John made no attempt to isolate Patsy or Burke. This was raw behavior before any lawyers were involved.

Albert18

Yea, all of that makes sense. You could also reason that he did find JB's body earlier that morning, but waited to see if Pastsy would break down and "tell it all". When that didn't happen he went down to the basement and "found" her body.

Maybe he sat there those hours waiting for her to break down and thought about all the options. Then decided it was in his best interest to go along with Patsy for whatever reason.

I hope one day we will all know the truth!

JR "suspecting" PR of killing their daughter, albeit accidentally, just doesn't make sense to me. Here we have his daughter dead in the basement. How was JR supposed to think that happened? That she just "died"? There were 2 other people there- his wife and his daughter.
Did PR show him the note and at first he actually believed she was kidnapped? Not likely, IMO. He HAD to recognize his wife's handwriting.
To follow that line of thinking- you'd have to have JR not recognizing his wife's handwriting on the note...allowing their son to remain asleep instead of asking him what he may have seen/heard while believing his daughter had really been kidnapped- then he searched the house and finds the body of his supposedly kidnapped daughter- maybe in the basement, maybe in her bathroom or bedroom, begins to suspect his own WIFE had done it and....says NOTHING to her?
A normal father, even one who was distant and occupied with his business, would have flown into a rage at that point, and possibly called police himself.
IF that rage occurred, he may have calmed down, and he and PR colluded on how to get her out of it.
Even so, this is a much harder scenario for me.
I lean towards PR losing it for whatever reason, accidentally killing her daughter by strangling her with her shirt collar WHILE slamming her head into the sink/tub/faucet/doorknob (pick one). Then hysterically telling JR: "Look what I've DONE!!!" The panic then ensues- JBR is moved to the basement right away, so as not to be seen by BR shoud he wake up and come out of his room. (of course, later BR admits he WAS awake and heard a commotion, but was too afraid to come out of his room). They then put together the plan to stage the death to look like a kidnapping, but they realize that they must account for the fact that she is in reality dead, not kidnapped. The note is actually written last- after the staging. The tell-tale clue to me, is all of the threats about killing her, beheading, etc. if they talk to anyone (even a stray dog). THAT is the part that "explains" the dead child in the home. OOOOHHHHH- they called in friends, and the police- so THAT'S why the "kidnappers" killed her. What this doesn't explain is that in order for the kidnappers to kill her in retaliation for the Rs calling LE or their friends is that the kidnappers would have to be still IN THE HOME to see it. NOT "watching" from another location, car, etc. because the child was killed in the home. So the kidnappers had to be in the home at the time the Rs made the 911 call. And we all know that didn't happen.

Yes DeeDee, I think when John woke up that morning he thought he was going to Michigan.

Who says he didn't recognize her handwriting, the $118,000, the way the note was personally written to him? Who says he didn't say anything to her? Who says he didn't look at the body before 911 was called?

But what could he do? The condition of the body was irreversable.

What he had to do was protect himself and the way to do that was call the police and bring people into the house to create a buffer so he could figure out what to do. That is what he did. We will never know why he didn't turn her in. My guess is what she did was so horrible he didn't want people to know she had done that.

If you involve John right away you need a motive for John. I can't see John ruining his life because emergency room doctors will ask Patsy some tough questions. If you involve John right away you are saying this intelligent, cool under fire guy, decided that violating his daughters body was safer than just taking her to an emergency room.

If JR didn't already know,then that was one darned long shower he took that morning.He showered though Patsy awakening,putting on her makeup and getting dressed..a good 20-30 mins. at the least.(He must have been really dirty).Plus,I think he would have gotten Patsy up,not let her sleep,before getting into the shower.According to the time the 911 call came in,they were already running late.He would have known his former Miss WV wouldn't have wanted to just throw herself together and look disheveled.Plus,she had the kids to get up and get ready.
And I think he would have noticed she hadn't came to bed that night.Melatonin doesn't knock you out,it just helps you sleep better.
JR would have had to have read the whole note to possibly gather that Patsy had written it.Is there anything in JR's personality to suggest a reason why he wouldn't have confronted her right then and there,instead of telling her to call 911 and letting her invite the town over? I think he'd have called her on it right then...'I know you wrote that note...where's JonBenet???!!!' So if he'd read the whole note,he then didn't bother to tell LE to lay low...which I think he would have,in case there was a chance she hadn't written it.
There is just no way he didn't already know.JMHO of course.

ETA: They did buffer BR.JR sent him off to the White's house asap.I think that was done in case he'd overheard something.Get him out of there so he won't be around to talk to LE and so he won't be there when his dead sister is found.More indications that JR already knew what was going on.
One even bigger indication is that JR lets it be known in DOI that he was angry LE had questioned BR at the White's house that morning.He was angry b/c the intention was to get him out of there so LE couldn't question him.But they did anyway.I think that angered JR greatly.Any innocent parent would have been happy they'd bothered.But then again,any innocent parent would have questioned the remaining child,prob. till he was blue in the face.Another good indication JR already knew.He would never have let BR walk out of that house without asking him if he'd heard or seen anything during the night.And he would have checked BR's room,under his bed,his closet,and then kept him by his side,not just let him sleep.
If not, then JR would have to be thinking 'Oh,BR's asleep,I'll just let him stay that way.Nevermind Patsy may have harmed him tor perhaps there really was an intruder.Either way I'll just let him lay there'.
how did JR know he wasn't dead or passed out from an injury? did anyone check to see if he was still breathing or if he could even become conscious,for that matter?? nope. they say they only looked in on him.what if Patsy or an intruder had harmed him too???? There is no way he would have only opened the door, looked in on him and then left him laying there alone.

DeeDee,

I lean towards PR losing it for whatever reason, accidentally killing her daughter by strangling her with her shirt collar WHILE slamming her head into the sink/tub/faucet/doorknob (pick one). Then hysterically telling JR: "Look what I've DONE!!!" The panic then ensues- JBR is moved to the basement right away, so as not to be seen by BR shoud he wake up and come out of his room. (of course, later BR admits he WAS awake and heard a commotion, but was too afraid to come out of his room). They then put together the plan to stage the death to look like a kidnapping, but they realize that they must account for the fact that she is in reality dead, not kidnapped. The note is actually written last- after the staging. The tell-tale clue to me, is all of the threats about killing her, beheading, etc. if they talk to anyone (even a stray dog). THAT is the part that "explains" the dead child in the home. OOOOHHHHH- they called in friends, and the police- so THAT'S why the "kidnappers" killed her. What this doesn't explain is that in order for the kidnappers to kill her in retaliation for the Rs calling LE or their friends is that the kidnappers would have to be still IN THE HOME to see it. NOT "watching" from another location, car, etc. because the child was killed in the home. So the kidnappers had to be in the home at the time the Rs made the 911 call. And we all know that didn't happen.
__________________


It's very possible JR knew what had happened before the police were called. Maybe he heard the rucous whenever whatever happened between PR and JBR and ran downstairs to see what had happened. There ensued a loud arguement between JR and PR. That might be what BR heard that made him too afraid to come out of his room and see what was going on.

I just think that in that early morning that JR was waiting on PR to "crack" or for the police to figure out what had happened. When they didn't he had to make sure JB's body was found even if he had to be the one to do it. But, she was a tough cookie and never said a word. Odd that she wouldn't be insisting that when the kidnappers called she wanted to speak with JB. I can only speak for myself (of course, nothing like this has ever happened to me), but I wouldn't be able to just sit and wait. I would have to be doing something!

Blondieskatz said:

DeeDee,

I lean towards PR losing it for whatever reason, accidentally killing her daughter by strangling her with her shirt collar WHILE slamming her head into the sink/tub/faucet/doorknob (pick one). Then hysterically telling JR: "Look what I've DONE!!!" The panic then ensues- JBR is moved to the basement right away, so as not to be seen by BR shoud he wake up and come out of his room. (of course, later BR admits he WAS awake and heard a commotion, but was too afraid to come out of his room). They then put together the plan to stage the death to look like a kidnapping, but they realize that they must account for the fact that she is in reality dead, not kidnapped. The note is actually written last- after the staging. The tell-tale clue to me, is all of the threats about killing her, beheading, etc. if they talk to anyone (even a stray dog). THAT is the part that "explains" the dead child in the home. OOOOHHHHH- they called in friends, and the police- so THAT'S why the "kidnappers" killed her. What this doesn't explain is that in order for the kidnappers to kill her in retaliation for the Rs calling LE or their friends is that the kidnappers would have to be still IN THE HOME to see it. NOT "watching" from another location, car, etc. because the child was killed in the home. So the kidnappers had to be in the home at the time the Rs made the 911 call. And we all know that didn't happen.
__________________


It's very possible JR knew what had happened before the police were called. Maybe he heard the rucous whenever whatever happened between PR and JBR and ran downstairs to see what had happened. There ensued a loud arguement between JR and PR. That might be what BR heard that made him too afraid to come out of his room and see what was going on.

I just think that in that early morning that JR was waiting on PR to "crack" or for the police to figure out what had happened. When they didn't he had to make sure JB's body was found even if he had to be the one to do it. But, she was a tough cookie and never said a word. Odd that she wouldn't be insisting that when the kidnappers called she wanted to speak with JB. I can only speak for myself (of course, nothing like this has ever happened to me), but I wouldn't be able to just sit and wait. I would have to be doing something!

Click to expand...

me either Blondie.And I think Patsy would have been hovering around that phone and pacing around that room had the situation been real.Not just sitting in another room.I doubt she would have even been able to sit down in that case.
I think BR heard JB's scream that night,and overheard Patsy and JR yelling about what to do,even if he doesn't consciously recall it.But he knows subconsciously,and that's why he wasn't afraid.He knows there was no intruder.He knew as long as he didn't give mom a problem,he would be ok,b/c he wasn't rebelling like JB was.In a way it sounds as if he even thinks JB may have had it coming,as though she asked for it in some way,b/c she knew she was supposed to obey mom.And he's a good boy,so he's not in danger (at the time,and growing up).JMO though.Just black and white thinking that children so freq. do.Esp. at that age,9 yrs old.

Ames said:

He got that all wrong...if John had of found his daughter that way and had cut her down, he would have mentioned that little "tidbit" in at least ONE of his interviews. And to be quite honest...I am totally RDI....but, if the Ramsey's had of wanted the intruder theory to be more believable, then...they should have "went" with that story of her hanging up by her arms, and John cutting her down, instead of her being found on the floor, wrapped/swaddled like a "papoose" (Papoose is the word that John, himself uses, in his interview...to describe how the blanket was around her).

Click to expand...

That is a pretty bad mistake on Walsh's part. Very bad. It shows he is not paying attention at all.